Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[physics34]

do agree that they get a bit of a raw deal up north, for example the pacers are a joke, and basically, wouldnt be used in the south east for that very reason.

But id be reasonably happy if i were them with the 319s. A good unit! You would imagine though they will need a refurb soon anyway.

 

[deltic08]

Hold on here before I fall off my seat laughing, people complain about overcrowding and not enough seats on services in the north and now that they are getting more trains which offer more seating theyre complaining about that too as they may not get a table?

You can do as much falling off seats as you like. Replacing 156/158/185 services with unrefurbished 319s is a downgrade as far as the average Northern user is concerned. Replacing Pacers with 319s is still a downgrade as the North was due to have new diesel stock as Pacer replacements. Replacing 319s with new anything is an upgrade for London commuters if there is still ten years life left in dual voltage 319s. This does not go down well with Northerners, with an ever widening North/South divide, only having 319s foisted upon them to improve the business case of Thameslink in the south.

 

[Emblematic]

Couldn't agree more.

In a perfect world logically you would expect new rolling stock to accompany a multimillion electrification scheme, but anybody watching the news today will soon become aware the world is not a perfect place. It should not be a case of the North being landed with London's cast off's, it is simple economic fact that the business and country at this time simply cannot afford to right off rolling stock that still has a useful life and cannot afford to replace with new.

It is worth mentioning that there has been little replacement procurement in recent years. Most of the commuter stock purchased since privatization was either to replace banned slam door stock (and that was under some duress, as I recall) with some small piecemeal additions to address critical capacity shortages. Pendolinos have really been the only major fleet acquisition, resulting in surplus stock & locomotives being retired (some to return to service elsewhere.) Very little has been scrapped. With both Crossrail and Thameslink, new fleets are needed to make effective use of the capacity enhancements being provided at great expense. There's no doubt that if the 319s could do the job, they would be left in place. Most of them are staying on London commuter routes anyway, relatively few are moving north.

 

[D365]

There's no doubt that if the 319s could do the job, they would be left in place. Most of them are staying on London commuter routes anyway, relatively few are moving north.

I wouldn't say that [at least] thirty-odd 319s moving north is relatively few. Total fleet size is 86 4-car units (I can't understand how more seats is supposed to be a downgrade overall... Never mind falling off them) and it seems the GW franchise is after 110mph-capable units - which suggests Class 387. Not sure about whether any of the Southern regions are after a handful of these trains, so it seems most of the 319s will be there for the taking. Will be useful to move these on up in order to get the refurbishment rolling.

 

[Emblematic]

I wouldn't say that [at least] thirty-odd 319s moving north is relatively few. Total fleet size is 86 4-car units (I can't understand how more seats is supposed to be a downgrade overall... Never mind falling off them) and it seems the GW franchise is after 110mph-capable units - which suggests Class 387. Not sure about whether any of the Southern regions are after a handful of these trains, so it seems most of the 319s will be there for the taking. Will be useful to move these on up in order to get the refurbishment rolling.

Well, thirty-odd from 86 is relatively few!
My point is rather that they are far from the worst trains in SE commuter land, and with a decent refresh (my reference being the SWT 455 which is older still) perfectly good for use anywhere in the country. With so much electrification planned, there's plenty of demand for new EMUs - I've see the figure of 12 new electric vehicles a week until 2019 quoted, with only four a week delivered on average over the last five years. With this level of shortfall, nothing is going to sit around unused for long.

 

[D365]

Well, thirty-odd from 86 is relatively few!
My point is rather that they are far from the worst trains in SE commuter land, and with a decent refresh (my reference being the SWT 455 which is older still) perfectly good for use anywhere in the country. With so much electrification planned, there's plenty of demand for new EMUs - I've see the figure of 12 new electric vehicles a week until 2019 quoted, with only four a week delivered on average over the last five years. With this level of shortfall, nothing is going to sit around unused for long.

Fair enough. I understand the gripe if internal condition is not up to scratch, but a refurbishment can take place later, when sufficient units are being made available. With this shortfall that you mentioned, nothing can sit around for long waiting for an overhaul to take place, as seats and capacity are of a more pressing matter.

 

[Clip]

You can do as much falling off seats as you like. Replacing 156/158/185 services with unrefurbished 319s is a downgrade as far as the average Northern user is concerned. Replacing Pacers with 319s is still a downgrade as the North was due to have new diesel stock as Pacer replacements. Replacing 319s with new anything is an upgrade for London commuters if there is still ten years life left in dual voltage 319s. This does not go down well with Northerners, with an ever widening North/South divide, only having 319s foisted upon them to improve the business case of Thameslink in the south.

You really cant be reading the thread properly as only 2 posts above yours or something and as has been said before they are not replacing those as they are going to be dispersed to other parts of theNorthen network which means other areas will also benefit - its not all about the north west you know.

 

[Aictos]

I don't know why people are complaining about the 319s, end of the day they are EMUs and will deliver a better service then the existing stock can as they will be quieter, more economical to run and a massive improvement on some of the trains currently in use.

I mean if they really want to complain about cascaded trains, why don't the DfT send them a few 313s

End of the day, people should be bloody grateful they're seeing electrification instead of moaning like a bunch of old women about the North/South divide :roll:

 

[Starmill]

You can do as much falling off seats as you like. Replacing 156/158/185 services with unrefurbished 319s is a downgrade as far as the average Northern user is concerned.

This is, without a shadow of a doubt, correct. And it's not something that only enthusiasts will notice.

 

[fowler9]

I don't know why people are complaining about the 319s, end of the day they are EMUs and will deliver a better service then the existing stock can as they will be quieter, more economical to run and a massive improvement on some of the trains currently in use.

I mean if they really want to complain about cascaded trains, why don't the DfT send them a few 313s

End of the day, people should be bloody grateful they're seeing electrification instead of moaning like a bunch of old women about the North/South divide :roll:

Yeah we should just be bloody grateful we are getting anything! That is that one settled! :roll:

Stop moaning that huge swathes of the north are served by 142's, that most of Merseyside is served by some of the oldest units in the country. Don't you know that a couple of routes in the South East have slightly older units!

 

[Clip]

This is, without a shadow of a doubt, correct. And it's not something that only enthusiasts will notice.

Oh, so you are saaying that the 319s are replacing all three of those fleets? Can you give a source for this please as this thread is littered with people saying they are not, some are being dispersed but these are to replace the pacers are they not?

 

[Wavertreelad]

It is worth mentioning that there has been little replacement procurement in recent years. Most of the commuter stock purchased since privatization was either to replace banned slam door stock (and that was under some duress, as I recall) with some small piecemeal additions to address critical capacity shortages. Pendolinos have really been the only major fleet acquisition, resulting in surplus stock & locomotives being retired (some to return to service elsewhere.) Very little has been scrapped. With both Crossrail and Thameslink, new fleets are needed to make effective use of the capacity enhancements being provided at great expense. There's no doubt that if the 319s could do the job, they would be left in place. Most of them are staying on London commuter routes anyway, relatively few are moving north.

Totally agree again. The North is in desperate need for the additional capacity the 319's will offer, so the plan has to be get them into service, sort out the franchise enabling the refurbishment to take place. We should remember that the electrification programme in the North West has been undertaken during a period when the current government has reduced public spending dramatically, so imagine the uproar if new rolling stock had been ordered for the North and the 319's were dumped in a siding to rot away?

 

[Manchester77]

Oh, so you are saaying that the 319s are replacing all three of those fleets? Can you give a source for this please as this thread is littered with people saying they are not, some are being dispersed but these are to replace the pacers are they not?

Yeah I don't get where the 319s will replace 158s?!

 

[Clip]

Yeah I don't get where the 319s will replace 158s?!

It may be because they may not be in the North West because thats all some people in this thread seem to care about forgetting that the north is a canny big place

 

[Grumpy]

Couldn't agree more.

In a perfect world logically you would expect new rolling stock to accompany a multimillion electrification scheme, but anybody watching the news today will soon become aware the world is not a perfect place. It should not be a case of the North being landed with London's cast off's, it is simple economic fact that the business and country at this time simply cannot afford to right off rolling stock that still has a useful life and cannot afford to replace with new.

Well the country seems to be able to afford new rolling stock for the South East.
Simply send some of that new rolling stock north and keep the 319's down south if they still have some useful life.
The DfT wouldn't dare suggest sending 319'st to Scotland for Edinburgh-Glasgow.

 

[westcoaster]

Well the country seems to be able to afford new rolling stock for the South East.
Simply send some of that new rolling stock north and keep the 319's down south if they still have some useful life.
The DfT wouldn't dare suggest sending 319'st to Scotland for Edinburgh-Glasgow.

Why not they are at one with working local stopping services or express intercity workings, they are a very versatile unit, if these could stay on there stomping ground they would, but they can't so they are going else where.
people think we are getting the souths cast off's but in fact these units will enable strengthening of other services in the region easing overcrowding, and doubling of current 2 car units to 4 or 8.
They can also afford new stock for the north as well 350/4, 185's, 332's, but it's not tit for tat, as long as these units make an increase to bums on seats then what's the problem.

 

[deltic08]

You really cant be reading the thread properly as only 2 posts above yours or something and as has been said before they are not replacing those as they are going to be dispersed to other parts of theNorthen network which means other areas will also benefit - its not all about the north west you know.

Head-up-the-arse syndrome rears its ugly head again. Or not. The last time I used a Preston-Liverpool train only a few months back it was a very nice 156 with tables.
FROM DECEMBER 2014 THIS COULD BE A 319 BUT WILL BE A 319 FROM DECEMBER 2016. I am almost positive this is a 319 replacing a 156.

319s WILL REPLACE 185s ON THE WINDERMERE BRANCH AND BLACKPOOL-MIA SERVICE POST 2016.

319s WILL REPLACE 158s ON YORK/SELBY-HUDDERSFIELD CORRIDOR POST 2018. This is retrograde.

I live in North Yorkshire but will also defend the Northwest to the last even though born and bred a Southerner.
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Yeah I don't get where the 319s will replace 158s?!

See above
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Why not they are at one with working local stopping services or express intercity workings, they are a very versatile unit, if these could stay on there stomping ground they would, but they can't so they are going else where.
people think we are getting the souths cast off's but in fact these units will enable strengthening of other services in the region easing overcrowding, and doubling of current 2 car units to 4 or 8.
They can also afford new stock for the north as well 350/4, 185's, 332's, but it's not tit for tat, as long as these units make an increase to bums on seats then what's the problem.

You are joking about 319s being suitable for intercity workings. Even 350/4s are most unsuitable for journey's of over 200 miles. Imagine Paddington-Cardiff or Euston-Manchester on a 350. Again the North fobbed off with inferior products for the job in hand. Southerners just have no idea about the North.

I have never seen 332s in the North but neither have I seen pink elephants yet. You have a voice of authority so there must be some if you say so.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The last time I used a Preston-Liverpool train only a few months back it was a very nice 156 with tables.
FROM DECEMBER 2014 THIS COULD BE A 319 BUT WILL BE A 319 FROM DECEMBER 2016. I am almost positive this is a 319 replacing a 156.

But it was only 2 coaches and was overflowing, even before the crowds got on at St Helens and Huyton.
Lately these trains have seen more 150s on the route, too, so 156 not guaranteed.
Do you want 2 coaches with tables or 4 coaches back to back?

Your displaced 156 will end up on, say, the Liverpool-Oxford Road via CLC service, currently usually a 142.

 

[edwin_m]

You are joking about 319s being suitable for intercity workings. Even 350/4s are most unsuitable for journey's of over 200 miles. Imagine Paddington-Cardiff or Euston-Manchester on a 350. Again the North fobbed off with inferior products for the job in hand. Southerners just have no idea about the North.

There's no question of them being used on journeys of over 200 miles, but there are plenty of intercity workings (whatever definition you use) that are a lot shorter. For a while 319s, refurbished with 2+2 seating and buffet counters, worked the prime services between London and Brighton.

I'd like to see some or all refurbished in a similar layout (as some 150s have been) to offer similar levels of comfort to 156s. Maybe have a different sub-fleet for more commuter journeys with higher density seating. But it's pretty clear that they will initially go into service with their existing interiors, basic but serviceable, and it's up to the new franchise to decide what do to after that.

As to the north-south thing, 15 years ago practically every unit working in Northern England was newer than practically every unit working south of London (with the exception of the Networkers). It's all down to renewal cycles and sensible use of resources.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 319s were refreshed relatively recently. They are good to go, with a deep clean etc.

I've seen this mentioned a fair few times on the thread. I do use the 319s fairly regularly, and the "refresh" consisted of painting the grab rails purple and fitting some new seat covers. The 319s are tired and old and they look tired and old.

Given a proper refurbishment the 319s would be good trains with plenty of life in them. A proper refurbishment is badly needed for them, but a proper refurbishment is not planned. I'm hoping it will end up in the spec for the new Northern franchise, but if the consultation document is anything to go by then we're going to get another cheapo-franchise disaster zone.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm hoping it will end up in the spec for the new Northern franchise, but if the consultation document is anything to go by then we're going to get another cheapo-franchise disaster zone.

One thing to note is over the next 5 years a lot of trains will have to be refurbished to meet accessibility requirements and the leasing companies will pay for these. On some trains replacement seats will be required to meet accessibility requirements but on others they won't e.g. bus bench seating or Merseytravel Pacer seating isn't deemed suitable for passengers with limited mobility.
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Your displaced 156 will end up on, say, the Liverpool-Oxford Road via CLC service, currently usually a 142.

I think the Buxton and Southport lines that'll see extra 156s, given there's to be platform lengthening on both lines to allow 4 car 156s or 158s to stop at certain rural stations.

 

[fowler9]

But it was only 2 coaches and was overflowing, even before the crowds got on at St Helens and Huyton.
Lately these trains have seen more 150s on the route, too, so 156 not guaranteed.
Do you want 2 coaches with tables or 4 coaches back to back?

Your displaced 156 will end up on, say, the Liverpool-Oxford Road via CLC service, currently usually a 142.

No it isn't mate, the CLC route is more often than not a 156. It is very rarely a 142 these days apart from one early morning service that is nailed on to be a pair of 142's.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think the Buxton and Southport lines that'll see extra 156s, given there's to be platform lengthening on both lines to allow 4 car 156s or 158s to stop at certain rural stations.

Which of the rural stations are the most likely candidates to be selected on the Southport line?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No it isn't mate, the CLC route is more often than not a 156. It is very rarely a 142 these days apart from one early morning service that is nailed on to be a pair of 142's.

OK, but my point is the 156s won't vanish, they will go to upgrade another Northern service.

If by some miracle Northern got to acquire brand new trains, do you think they would be spacious and have tables and carpets and all the trappings of a long-distance train?
I don't know what the latest 377s are like internally, but I suspect a new Northern EMU would look something like the high-density LM 350/2, one of the least-liked trains around.
So would that suit everybody?

And if the 319s do eventually get an upgrade, do you think they are likely to reappear with a lower seating capacity?
Well, maybe 2+2 with more standing room, like Merseyrail's 507/8s.

There are no easy answers.

 

[fowler9]

OK, but my point is the 156s won't vanish, they will go to upgrade another Northern service.

If by some miracle Northern got to acquire brand new trains, do you think they would be spacious and have tables and carpets and all the trappings of a long-distance train?
I don't know what the latest 377s are like internally, but I suspect a new Northern EMU would look something like the high-density LM 350/2, one of the least-liked trains around.
So would that suit everybody?

And if the 319s do eventually get an upgrade, do you think they are likely to reappear with a lower seating capacity?
Well, maybe 2+2 with more standing room, like Merseyrail's 507/8s.

There are no easy answers.

Sorry mate I know what you meant. In an ideal world the 319's will guarantee that we get more 156's on the CLC route. Even if we don't at least other parts of Northerns network will see the benefit. Although the 156's would be less than ideal for some high density routes.

I'd rather we were getting new units but the 319's aren't bad and it will be interesting to see them passing the bottom of my garden on their way to Allerton. Refurbed or not they are an improvement on the 150's and 142's on some services.

 

[b0b]

The DfT wouldn't dare suggest sending 319'st to Scotland for Edinburgh-Glasgow.

Scotland still has 314s in regular use ..

 

[northwichcat]

Which of the rural stations are the most likely candidates to be selected on the Southport line?

Dove Holes, Chapel-en-le Frith, Middlewood, Woodsmoor, Humphrey Park, Glazebrook Down, New Lane, Bescar Lane, Moses Gate, Hall i’th’wood, Darwen, Ramsgreave & Wilpshire, Langho, Whalley and Clitheroe are on the list to get platform lengthening to allow 92m trains.

So that does cover 2 x 156s or 2 x 158s Clitheroe line and CLC stoppers as well as the Buxton and Southport lines.

Liverpool South Parkway Up and Down fast platforms, Widnes, Warrington Central and Newton-le-Willows are to get platform lengthening to allow 144m trains.

Which fits in nicely with Liverpool-Sheffield being a half-hourly TPE service using 6 car 185s.
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Scotland still has 314s in regular use ..

They were built for Scotland though, not cascaded to Scotland after their 25th birthdays.

 

[fowler9]

Dove Holes, Chapel-en-le Frith, Middlewood, Woodsmoor, Humphrey Park, Glazebrook Down, New Lane, Bescar Lane, Moses Gate, Hall i’th’wood, Darwen, Ramsgreave & Wilpshire, Langho, Whalley and Clitheroe are on the list to get platform lengthening to allow 92m trains.

So that does cover 2 x 156s or 2 x 158s Clitheroe line and CLC stoppers as well as the Buxton and Southport lines.

Liverpool South Parkway Up and Down fast platforms, Widnes, Warrington Central and Newton-le-Willows are to get platform lengthening to allow 144m trains.

Which fits in nicely with Liverpool-Sheffield being a half-hourly TPE service using 6 car 185s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They were built for Scotland though, not cascaded to Scotland after their 25th birthdays.

Do you know what the plans are for South Parkway? Is the bridge on the fast lines being replaced or is there sufficient space on the current bridge for extended platforms?

 

[northwichcat]

OK, but my point is the 156s won't vanish, they will go to upgrade another Northern service.

If by some miracle Northern got to acquire brand new trains, do you think they would be spacious and have tables and carpets and all the trappings of a long-distance train?
I don't know what the latest 377s are like internally, but I suspect a new Northern EMU would look something like the high-density LM 350/2, one of the least-liked trains around.
So would that suit everybody?

And if the 319s do eventually get an upgrade, do you think they are likely to reappear with a lower seating capacity?
Well, maybe 2+2 with more standing room, like Merseyrail's 507/8s.

There are no easy answers.

3+2 seating seems to being phased out following the fuss when 350/2s and 450s were introduced. I imagine new commuter interiors will be similar in style to the 172s - 2+2 seating but without arm rests, tables or a lot of seat padding.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you know what the plans are for South Parkway? Is the bridge on the fast lines being replaced or is there sufficient space on the current bridge for extended platforms?

No there's just a list of platforms to be extended in the Network Rail CP5 plans, no details on how the extensions will be achieved.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Dove Holes, Chapel-en-le Frith, Middlewood, Woodsmoor, Humphrey Park, Glazebrook Down, New Lane, Bescar Lane, Moses Gate, Hall i’th’wood, Darwen, Ramsgreave & Wilpshire, Langho, Whalley and Clitheroe are on the list to get platform lengthening to allow 92m trains.

Not being unkind, but 92m train lengths being required at both New Lane and Bescar Lane does seem to have shades of "overkill".