There was a while when it was strongly rumoured that the Manchester to Stoke stopper would be in the hands of LM 350s (with them running a through service to/from Birmingham, with half of the XC trains diverted via Crewe to compensate).
I don’t remember any complaints at the time that these four coach 100mph EMUs wouldn’t be able to cope with the timings of the three coach 90mph 323s.
Now that four coach 100mph 319s are strongly rumoured to be coming to the Stoke route, it’s oft repeated that they won’t be able to accelerate as well as the 323s and will therefore struggle. This was never mentioned when 350s were discussed.
The only real difference I can think of between these four coach 100mph EMUs is that the 350s are shiny and modern whilst the 319s are older (insert diatribe about “London cast offs” here).
319s manage to deal with the frequent stops/starts of the Thameslink core, they manage to intermingle with 125mph services on the southern reaches of the MML, they manage a few nifty gradients (as referenced by
Chief Planner)...
One thing with Airport services is you get a lot of business travellers. A selling point of the train to business travellers is you can work while you're travelling if there are table seats. Lose the table seats and you might lose the type of passenger who'll make more journeys to/from the Airport than the average leisure traveller
Like the Airport travellers who use 319s to get to/from Gatwick and Luton in large number?
The interior of the 319s seems to be good enough for them (?) – or are Mancunian travellers different? Bearing in mind that Manchester Airport already sees Pacers on some departures...
This 319-hating is getting silly.
They are only 3 years older than the saintly 323s which have a very similar passenger environment (2+3).
If LM sent all its 323s to Northern instead of the 319s, would that make everybody happy?
I also fail to see how a 4-car train replacing a (mostly) 2-car train is some kind of unacceptable capacity reduction.
319s are not displacing 185s, and the (nice) 156s will be cascaded to other Northern routes.
What's not to like?
This.
There are plenty of Northern routes where the “spare” 156s could improve things (Clitheroe to Manchester on a 150? Bradford to Manchester on a 142? Sheffield to Lincoln on a 142? Occasional references to Pacers on the Mid Cheshire line?)
Agreed about the 323s being “saintly” too – I’m sure that they were seen as unloved EMUs a few months ago (problems coping with leaves, the “middle seats” being unused and therefore a waste of space) – but now that 319s are on the horizon the 323s are much praised!
Yup – these longer faster trains aren’t good enough.
Imagine a world where people were getting excited about the fact that 100mph 319s are capable of slotting in between the Virgin services from Wigan to Preston a lot better (than 75mph 156s), which may mean scope for a better service, imagine a world where people were getting excited about four coach trains replacing the (often) single DMUs?
But, now that the 319s are arriving, the 156s have become the “gold standard” of DMUs – almost always running in four coach formation too (if reports on this thread are anything to go by)!
Imagine (for a moment) if it were the other way round - with two coach 75mph trains replacing four coach 100mph trains - we'd no doubt see a few complaints from enthusiasts about "downgrading"...
You can do as much falling off seats as you like. Replacing 156/158/185 services with unrefurbished 319s is a downgrade as far as the average Northern user is concerned. Replacing Pacers with 319s is still a downgrade as the North was due to have new diesel stock as Pacer replacements. Replacing 319s with new anything is an upgrade for London commuters if there is still ten years life left in dual voltage 319s. This does not go down well with Northerners, with an ever widening North/South divide, only having 319s foisted upon them to improve the business case of Thameslink in the south.
Always nice when someone decides to be the voice of “the average Northern user”.
I’d imagine that a significant amount of those “users” (or passengers) couldn’t tell you whether their last journey was by EMU or DMU though.
And the “new diesel stock for the north” idea was one of many unfunded suggestions that the railway has had in recent years – never a promise, never a manifesto commitment – everywhere has its share of such hard luck stories, things that were never delivered or were delivered late.
Look at the SWT 450s that were taken away (and became LM 350s) – with SWT only belatedly getting the promised capacity in the form of cascaded 455s (or “unwanted London cast-offs” as they’d have been known, if they’d gone oop north).
Look at “Thameslink 2000”, and the delays its had...
Well the country seems to be able to afford new rolling stock for the South East.
Routes that have a good business case can generate new rolling stock.
Routes that see less than half of the operating costs met through the farebox (with a subsidy of forty pence per mile) cannot justify new rolling stock.
Nothing to do with any north/south thing.
319s WILL REPLACE 158s ON YORK/SELBY-HUDDERSFIELD CORRIDOR POST 2018. This is retrograde
Are they electrifying the route through Bradford and Brighouse by then? Or are you imagining lots of 158s on the route through Dewsbury?
Imagine Paddington-Cardiff or Euston-Manchester on a 350
Imagine Euston to Crewe on a 350? People seem to cope. But then people cope with a 450 from London to Portsmouth or a 321 from London to Norwich or a 319 from London to Brighton.
Again the North fobbed off with inferior products for the job in hand. Southerners just have no idea about the North
319s aren’t bad units – they’ve been good enough for a very high profile demanding route through London for a long time after all.
The “south” could easily have kept 319s and withdrawn other stock.
it's pretty clear that they will initially go into service with their existing interiors, basic but serviceable, and it's up to the new franchise to decide what do to after that
That sounds like about all that was ever going to happen – Northern aren’t going to shell out large sums at this stage of the franchise cycle – the new TOC will want to put their “stamp” on everything anyway
As to the north-south thing, 15 years ago practically every unit working in Northern England was newer than practically every unit working south of London (with the exception of the Networkers). It's all down to renewal cycles and sensible use of resources.
True
Arguably is the word, newish DMU which intercity style seating, or clapped out very grubby 25 year old EMU with suburban seating, I know which I prefer
Are they definitely going to be clapped out and
very grubby? Has that been confirmed?
I don’t remember the same level of complaints about second-hand stock Northern has acquired from elsewhere (LM 150s, FSR 322s etc), but then they weren’t “London cast-offs”, so seemingly didn’t have the same stigma.
And “Intercity style seating”? I thought that the frequent complaints about 185s was that the doors meant that they couldn’t be “Intercity style”?
