Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[61653 HTAFC]

The 333s were ordered as 3 car trains and later lengthened to 4 cars. So if anything the 'sparks effect' in this instance is the effect of brand new 333s replacing old 308s that attracted more passengers not the electrification work.

It'll be interesting to see if there's any growth on Manchester Airport-Blackpool services if 319s replace 185s.

You're right, I'd forgotten about the phased introduction of the 4th cars on the 333s. However, the 308s were a boost in capacity (while a bit long-in-the-tooth) compared to the 2/3-car pacers, and the 3-car 333s were a (smaller, admittedly) boost in capacity compared to the 308s.

There'll be more chance of a seat on a 319 than a 185, that's for sure!

 

[Class377/5]

Does anyone know when the first 319 is expected at Allerton now?

After all this argument I want to be at Lime Street in December to judge passenger reaction for myself when one turns up on a Manchester diagram. The climb to Edge Hill will be sweet compared with the roaring, gurgling, spluttering and disgusting fumes of a DMU.

319361 is on loan to FCC until next week. Then it should go to Northern.

 

[Starmill]

There'll be more chance of a seat on a 319 than a 185, that's for sure!

A much, much less comfortable seat with no table at it and an inferior view.
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319361 is on loan to FCC until next week. Then it should go to Northern.

So you mean it will be transferred sometime from the 16th? Or it's with FCC until the end of next week, in which case it will arrive from 23rd onward?

Pretty pathetic!!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A much, much less comfortable seat with no table at it and an inferior view.

Will there still be the refreshment trolley service offered between certain route points and our usual complementary offerings in First Class ?.....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are tables really needed on Manchester-Blackpool or Manchester-Liverpool? Anyway I'd rather get a seat that's not perfect than have to stand, and the seats on 185s are far from perfect!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A much, much less comfortable seat with no table at it and an inferior view.

319s will not be replacing 185s (not before 2016 anyway).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are tables really needed on Manchester-Blackpool or Manchester-Liverpool? Anyway I'd rather get a seat that's not perfect than have to stand, and the seats on 185s are far from perfect!

The tables with facing seats are rather good for family groups with young children.

 

[Class377/5]

So you mean it will be transferred sometime from the 16th? Or it's with FCC until the end of next week, in which case it will arrive from 23rd onward?

Pretty pathetic!!!

Northern loaned the unit to FCC until the 18th. Its all a reaction to the late arrival of the 377/7's.

 

[deltic08]

The tables with facing seats are rather good for family groups with young children.

That is my first choice travelling on my own. It gives a more open feel and a better view.

 

[ianhr]

A much, much less comfortable seat with no table at it and an inferior view.

but 185 ride quality is very poor, at least between Manchester and Leeds, and the 319s will be MUCH quieter with MORE seats even if they are a bit shabby.

A shocking reflection on rolling stock policy for the North of England that even 319s can arguably stand comparison with the North's NEWEST DMUs let alone the crap that we have inherited from the late BR period!

 

[47802]

but 185 ride quality is very poor, at least between Manchester and Leeds, and the 319s will be MUCH quieter with MORE seats even if they are a bit shabby.

A shocking reflection on rolling stock policy for the North of England that even 319s can arguably stand comparison with the North's NEWEST DMUs let alone the crap that we have inherited from the late BR period!

Arguably is the word, newish DMU which intercity style seating, or clapped out very grubby 25 year old EMU with suburban seating, I know which I prefer.

A 319 is certainly preferable to a Railbus but until and if they get a decent refurb not much else. I spent a couple of weeks commuting on Thameslink last year, and thought 319's were fairly grubby, I frequently decided to wait for a 377 working.

 

[Starmill]

Arguably is the word, newish DMU which intercity style seating, or clapped out very grubby 25 year old EMU with suburban seating, I know which I prefer.

A 319 is certainly preferable to a Railbus but until and if they get a decent refurb not much else. I spent a couple of weeks commuting on Thameslink last year, and thought 319's were fairly grubby, I frequently decided to wait for a 377 working.

I align with this viewpoint The 319s in their current state are much less nice than one of Northern's newly refurbished 156s as far as interior is concerned. The 156s even have carpets!

 

[fowler9]

I align with this viewpoint The 319s in their current state are much less nice than one of Northern's newly refurbished 156s as far as interior is concerned. The 156s even have carpets!

The 156's are spot on. We are lucky enough to get a decent proportion of them on our services.

 

[Starmill]

Northern loaned the unit to FCC until the 18th. Its all a reaction to the late arrival of the 377/7's.

I see - thanks

 

[The Ham]

are tables really needed on manchester-blackpool or manchester-liverpool? Anyway i'd rather get a seat that's not perfect than have to stand, and the seats on 185s are far from perfect!

the tables with facing seats are rather good for family groups with young children.

that is my first choice travelling on my own. It gives a more open feel and a better view.

On busy services it is better to have more seats (i.e. fewer tables) although if a service is known to be quite people will take tables so they have space and views. However if it is known to get busier later then people will avoid the tables as they are more likely to retain their own pair of airline seats, whilst could end up with one or two people sitting facing them or with families asking if they could move so the family can have the table so that they could sit together.

Therefore there is no problem with trains having only a few sets of tables per coach, as most services are either busy enough that the extra seats are needed or so quiet that most people who want a table can get one.

Someone once stated that a fairly high percentage of people in Sweeden prefered table seats, to which I pointed out that 100% of people perfered having a seat than having to stand, even if it meant that they couldn't always get a table seat. Given how busy our network is the reduction in the number of tables isn't really a problem.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On busy services it is better to have more seats (i.e. fewer tables) although if a service is known to be quite people will take tables so they have space and views. However if it is known to get busier later then people will avoid the tables as they are more likely to retain their own pair of airline seats

As yet another way of offering the rail travellers "north of the Home Counties" the provision deemed fit to carry such as these would appear to suggest that table provision in the Class 185 units is most certainly far too good for the likes of these oiks and has caused much heart-searching at the DfT, who spent days on end wondering how that matter slipped under their radar, as under the terms of the original table provision proposals, it was clearly stated that such items must comply with the stipulation that any table that was fitted to rail units operating north of Watford must be "cascaded tables of no less than thirty years of age". News that First Class accommodation is also available on the Class 185 units in the "Northern Provinces" has recently caused the smelling salts to be urgently brought to the assistance of certain mandarins at the DfT.....

 

[northwichcat]

Are tables really needed on Manchester-Blackpool or Manchester-Liverpool? Anyway I'd rather get a seat that's not perfect than have to stand, and the seats on 185s are far from perfect!

One thing with Airport services is you get a lot of business travellers. A selling point of the train to business travellers is you can work while you're travelling if there are table seats. Lose the table seats and you might lose the type of passenger who'll make more journeys to/from the Airport than the average leisure traveller.
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There'll be more chance of a seat on a 319 than a 185, that's for sure!

But maybe not on the busiest services though given some services are 6 car 185s and the infrastructure isn't able to handle 8 car 319 workings, unless some stations, such as Salford Crescent are omitted. However, omitting stations would then make the chance of finding a seat on other services much lower.

 

[edwin_m]

Part of the attraction of table seats is that the folding tables on face-to-back seats are usually too small to use a laptop. On the 185s only the table seats have power sockets.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This 319-hating is getting silly.
They are only 3 years older than the saintly 323s which have a very similar passenger environment (2+3).
If LM sent all its 323s to Northern instead of the 319s, would that make everybody happy?
I also fail to see how a 4-car train replacing a (mostly) 2-car train is some kind of unacceptable capacity reduction.
319s are not displacing 185s, and the (nice) 156s will be cascaded to other Northern routes.
What's not to like?

 

[northwichcat]

319s are not displacing 185s

Given the Northern/TPE franchise consultation now proposes moving Manchester Airport-Blackpool to Northern for the specific reason of having consistent EMU fleets, is that not a big enough clue that 319s will be running Manchester Airport-Blackpool services come 2016? It also mentions Windermere going over to Northern if electrification is approved.

They are only 3 years older than the saintly 323s which have a very similar passenger environment (2+3).
If LM sent all its 323s to Northern instead of the 319s, would that make everybody happy?

323s only perform all-stops or most-stops services currently. If you're doing Manchester Airport/Wilmslow/Crewe/Stoke/Stockport/Macclesfield-Manchester you have a choice of a 323 on all stops services or alternative regional/intercity stock like Pendolinos, Voyagers, 158s and 175s on an express service. Hadfield is the only route where it's sensible to do an end-to-end journey on a 323.

 

[47802]

This 319-hating is getting silly.
They are only 3 years older than the saintly 323s which have a very similar passenger environment (2+3).
If LM sent all its 323s to Northern instead of the 319s, would that make everybody happy?
I also fail to see how a 4-car train replacing a (mostly) 2-car train is some kind of unacceptable capacity reduction.
319s are not displacing 185s, and the (nice) 156s will be cascaded to other Northern routes.
What's not to like?

Well the fact they haven't had a proper refurb as originally promised, I can see people used to 156's being less keen on the suburban layout of the 319's, although being busy commuter routes as well its a difficult balance.

319's may replace 185's on the Airport Blackpool run if its transferred to northern although perhaps by then there will be an upgrade plan for the 319's, and perhaps some could get interiors more suited to airport traffic, then again given that the Dft are looking for cost reductions maybe they will bench style seats in!.

Oh and while the 323's may be only a few years newer they are a generation ahead it terms of design rather than being towards the end of an old design in the case of the 319's.

 

[Fincra5]

Give time and i'm sure the 319s will eventually get a refurb...

Its like when Southern were given 442s and 313s, for a time they had to run around without a refurb.

 

[po8crg]

100% of people preferred having a seat than having to stand, even if it meant that they couldn't always get a table seat. Given how busy our network is the reduction in the number of tables isn't really a problem.

Technically not true, in that I'd rather stand than have most airline seats (legroom seats on actual aeroplanes being the exception).

But I'm well aware that I'm a very unusual case - airline seats don't have enough legroom for me. You don't want to sit opposite me in tables either, because my knees are well past the mid-point of the table.

I don't want a railway designed around people like me - I'm well aware that I'm an unusual minority - but 100% isn't quite true.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not which is the biggest joke there, the idea that some people thought 308's were new trains or complaining about getting 333 to replace them!

Well I can tell you when the 308s started running on the Wakefield line (I was living there at the time) it didn't take long for folk to work out that they were most certainly not new!! Apart from some people making passing remarks about the "new" (in the context of being different) trains, most people will soon work out that cascaded units are far from new unless they've had a full refit, which the 319's most certainly won't.

Yes they are welcome in the absence of new units, but these posters shouldn't expect people to see them for what they are not!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Well I can tell you when the 308s started running on the Wakefield line (I was living there at the time) it didn't take long for folk to work out that they were most certainly not new!! Apart from some people making passing remarks about the "new" (in the context of being different) trains, most people will soon work out that cascaded units are far from new unless they've had a full refit, which the 319's most certainly won't.

Yes they are welcome in the absence of new units, but these posters shouldn't expect people to see them for what they are not!

It was 307s on the Leeds-Wakefield-Doncaster services- they kept all 4 cars but were an older design than the 308s that later came up to Yorkshire. They also for the most part replaced diesel stock of a similar vintage (though Sprinters and Pacers popped up too).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh and while the 323's may be only a few years newer they are a generation ahead it terms of design rather than being towards the end of an old design in the case of the 319's.

Well said. Having these Class 323 units with the seat pad and covering refurbishment programme completed on our line to Macclesfield et al certainly gives the feel of a more modern unit than other offerings of Northern Rail such as the Class 142 railbuses and the Class 150 units on the local Manchester area rail services to Clitheroe, etc. Class 156 units are much better but these are not seen anywhere near to the level of those other units on many Northern Rail routes in the areas I travel upon.
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Give time and i'm sure the 319s will eventually get a refurb...Its like when Southern were given 442s and 313s, for a time they had to run around without a refurb.

Just because this has occurred previously, there is no reason why it should be viewed as the norm for future cascaded stock.

 

[Clip]

Hold on here before I fall off my seat laughing, people complain about overcrowding and not enough seats on services in the north and now that they are getting more trains which offer more seating theyre complaining about that too as they may not get a table?

 

[fyldetrainfan]

Well some people are never satisfied. Solve one complaint and they think of another!

 

[Wavertreelad]

This 319-hating is getting silly.
They are only 3 years older than the saintly 323s which have a very similar passenger environment (2+3).
If LM sent all its 323s to Northern instead of the 319s, would that make everybody happy?
I also fail to see how a 4-car train replacing a (mostly) 2-car train is some kind of unacceptable capacity reduction.
319s are not displacing 185s, and the (nice) 156s will be cascaded to other Northern routes.
What's not to like?

Couldn't agree more.

In a perfect world logically you would expect new rolling stock to accompany a multimillion electrification scheme, but anybody watching the news today will soon become aware the world is not a perfect place. It should not be a case of the North being landed with London's cast off's, it is simple economic fact that the business and country at this time simply cannot afford to right off rolling stock that still has a useful life and cannot afford to replace with new.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One thing with Airport services is you get a lot of business travellers. A selling point of the train to business travellers is you can work while you're travelling if there are table seats. Lose the table seats and you might lose the type of passenger who'll make more journeys to/from the Airport than the average leisure traveller.

On the occasions I have cause to travel with large items of luggage, I'd rather have seating bays without tables as found on the 319s/175s or with half-tables like the 318s, as there's room for the bag- trying to squeeze a rucksack or suitcase underneath a 185 table is no mean feat. If I'm on a 185 service I'll head straight to the disabled bay, rather than inconvenience others with my bags! (That's assuming there isn't a wheelchair user in need of that area of course!). The facing bays without tables also strike me as being better for larger groups.