North TPE electrification

[Nym]

Batman, replaces the wrong stock for pacer scrapping though, we need reigonal diesel stock, LDPE diesel can be life extended HSTs for a few more years.

 

[HSTEd]

Batman, replaces the wrong stock for pacer scrapping though, we need reigonal diesel stock, LDPE diesel can be life extended HSTs for a few more years.

HST sets have to be gone by the same date as Pacers as I dont think many TOCs are going to put up the money for refurbishment, atleast not before its so late in the day that the cost has gone through the roof and new stock would be considerably better value.

Additionally Total MML electrification frees possibly electrodiesel Cl222s for service elsewhere, these could displace Cl158/170s on regional expresses.

 

[Nym]

The're on about life extending HSTs to run into Cornwall anyway, adding a few more to the list isn't going to hurt that much... That was always the plan anyway IIRC.

If the MML was done by 2019, and the Cardiff Suburban Lines, and Swansea, then it will be enough to scrap off all 14x stock and HSTs, not accounting for growth of course. (TPE N Assumed completed).

I get the feeling that it will either have the MML done or an exception on some stock until 2025 (HSTs) until HS2 and MML Electrification frees up a shed tonne of LDPE DEMU/EDMU Units.

 

[4SRKT]

I never thoguht about that. And you'd give Leicester, Loughborough and East Midlands Parkway a direct train to Yorkshire.

This could happen now TBF and doesn't need electrification. Like my favourite train for sneaking into London in the morning, the 06:34 Leeds > St Pancras, which usually has £22 advances available until a couple of days before, by which time the cheapest EC advance with a comparable arrival in London costs a King's ransom.

 

[tbtc]

If Sheffield-Leeds was to be completely electrified we could see a third tph being put in to Leeds from London

I never thoguht about that. And you'd give Leicester, Loughborough and East Midlands Parkway a direct train to Yorkshire

There's more to "Yorkshire" than Leeds...

 

[HSTEd]

This could happen now TBF and doesn't need electrification. Like my favourite train for sneaking into London in the morning, the 06:34 Leeds > St Pancras, which usually has £22 advances available until a couple of days before, by which time the cheapest EC advance with a comparable arrival in London costs a King's ransom.

IT wouldnt require it, but electrification even of the sections irrelevant to the HS2 plan (London-Derby+Nottingham+Corby) would eliminate the HST fleet from the MML and most likely free sufficient 222 sets to make the service more regular.

 

[Lampshade]

If Sheffield-Leeds was to be completely electrified we could see a third tph being put in to Leeds from London, the times probably couldn't come close to competing but you never know.

I'm sure many people would use the slower service if the fares were low enough e.g. Leeds - London 'EMT Only' for £20 less than the EC fare.

 

[4SRKT]

I'm sure many people would use the slower service if the fares were low enough e.g. Leeds - London 'EMT Only' for £20 less than the EC fare.

Indeed. I do it often now, see my earlier post.

 

[HSTEd]

Well Cross Country can do Sheffield to Leeds in 40 minutes or so, so you could be looking at the Fast Sheffield service (which presumabely be teh one to be extended) reaching Leeds in roughly 2hr45 minutes, if we assume that a Cl222 can keep up with a Class 220/1 (whichever it is on that run) and that performance would be similar with a newbuild EMU.

Which isnt that bad compared to the ECML.

Replace the Nottingham and Corby Diagrams with electrification and a new order for Cl390s to fill the gap until after the HS2 decision is taken, if tilting cannot be implemented on the MML in the medium term they could then be sent to ICWC and more suitable stock purchased. Pantographs would enable the traction supply to be made use of by the Cl222 fleet with pan down at Derby, this would possibly free enough Cl222s for the service to be made hourly to Leeds before the electrification is extended north.

 

[4SRKT]

Replace the Nottingham and Corby Diagrams with electrification and a new order for Cl390s to fill the gap until after the HS2 decision is taken, if tilting cannot be implemented on the MML in the medium term they could then be sent to ICWC and more suitable stock purchased.

Can this new order of class 390s be built with windows this time please?

 

[WillPS]

Isn't Nottingham one of the big bugbears with MML electrification, as there is not enough overhead room so they'd need to dig, build new platforms etc. etc.?

 

[HSTEd]

Isn't Nottingham one of the big bugbears with MML electrification, as there is not enough overhead room so they'd need to dig, build new platforms etc. etc.?

Surely they could work out something to deal with low clearances? Even if they had to put trolleywire up in the vicinity of the station, its not as if trains will be running through fast to anywhere, even if the Nottingham-Grantham and the Nottingham-Sheffield route is eventually electrified as parts of extensions of the project.

 

[Zoe]

I get the feeling that it will either have the MML done or an exception on some stock until 2025 (HSTs) until HS2 and MML Electrification frees up a shed tonne of LDPE DEMU/EDMU Units.

How many diesel units are going to be freed by building HS2? Many of the routes that will use HS2 in the future already use electric traction. It's also possible that the HSTs could remain in service until 2035 by which time the 22x units will be getting on a bit and any cascade of them would only be a short term fix.

 

[CNX]

If ever there was a case for the development of bi-modal diesel electric units, then this is it. Why should Middlesbrough, Scarborough and Hull suffer because through TPX services will no longer be operationally convenient. The passengers will not like it.

TPE services are subject to frequent diversion. If these routes are not electrified the level of engineering work related bustitution will go through the roof, as if is isn't high enough already, if the units are electric only.

 

[northwichcat]

There's more to "Yorkshire" than Leeds...

Really? Don't BBC Look North think the opposite?

 

[DarloRich]

Really? Don't BBC Look North think the opposite?

Not the REAL Look North (based in Newcastle)

The one in Leeds is Look Yokshire!

 

[SuperOwl86]

There's more to "Yorkshire" than Leeds...

You sure about that?

seems like Sheffield is in some sort of black hole which no one can see.

 

[D6975]

Can this new order of class 390s be built with windows this time please?

Having travelled on them a few times this summer when I did a NW rover, I have to agree with that one. They really are very claustrophobic with those letterbox windows. By the end of the week I was actively going out of my way to make sure trips to Carlisle were on 185s.

 

[northwichcat]

Not the REAL Look North (based in Newcastle)

The one in Leeds is Look Yokshire!

The Real Look North was based in Manchester and presented by Stuart Hall. The Yorkshire/North Midlands and the North East versions came later.

 

[D6975]

Back to the original subject...

I hope that they use a bit of common sense and fill in the NL-Colton Jn bit first. This stretch of less than 20 miles is crying out to be electrified, rather like Carstairs-Edinburgh was a few years ago. Its usefulness both as a diversionary route and for the possible provision of a KGX-EDI via Leeds service makes it a priority surely??

 

[balne-wonderer]

When I lived in Balne it was Look North from BBC Yorks and Lincs. Now i'm back in Leeds it's Look North from BBC Yorks (no Lincs) Two different services with different presenters, mind boggling. Yorkshire is so big it has it's own variations within it's own county.

Anyway, this story can only be good news as long as Hull is included.

 

[northwichcat]

Yorkshire is so big it has it's own variations within it's own county.

The regions aren't just divisions of Yorkshire though. Places in Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire fall in to the two Look North 'Yorkshire' regions.

 

[hougtimo]

Hull has it's own version of Look North too - presented by that 'tard, Levy.

 

[WatcherZero]

In the statement, which was published alongside updated versions of the National Infrastructure Plan and the Plan for Growth, George Osborne announced £5 billion of investment in infrastructure, of which £1.4 billion was additional investment in rail infrastructure. We have been talking to the Government throughout this process, and headlines of particular relevance to Network Rail include:

o £290 million to electrify the North Transpennine route from Manchester to Leeds – Network Rail will develop the scheme in more detail and begin early enabling works where these can be delivered efficiently
o £270 million for a link between Oxford and Bedford – Network Rail will develop the scheme with the existing consortium
o £390 million of enhancement and renewal works to improve stations and infrastructure, improve resilience against extreme weather and tackle problems more quickly – this includes additional contributions to the NRDF and Access for All funds, plus the acceleration of structures renewals

‘As we know, rail freight plays a crucial part in our economy. This has been unambiguously recognised by the Government today, with relevant announcements including:
o Network Rail has been asked to support the development of a network of strategic rail freight interchanges (SRFIs), working with the wider logistics industry to speed up the delivery of SRFI sites to meet business demand; assist with funding; and establish appropriate delivery vehicles for rail infrastructure elements of such proposals.
o The Government will also support Network Rail in investing £55 million in the Strategic Freight Network, including the Ely-Soham doubling scheme, which will remove a bottleneck on the Felixstowe-Nuneaton route, and gauge clearance of additional freight routes in the Midlands between Syston Junction and Stoke.

‘The Chancellor also announced funding for other improvements affecting the railway, including:

o £5 million to set up a nationwide taskforce to target metal thieves and scrap metal dealers who illegally trade in stolen metal
o £45 million to extend smart ticketing across London and the South East
o £80 million to support the Southern Rail franchise’s procurement of 130 new carriages
o £290 million to limit the increase to regulated rail and Transport for London fares in January 2012 to RPI+1% rather than RPI+3%

From Network Rail

 

[cle]

Not much new there. No mention of Hull/Middlesbrough/Scarborough, so none the wiser! I would have thought Hull would be most beneficial wired, due to York and London trains also going EMU.

The Hull TPE would need to become a Liverpool (rather than the possible Chester) to stay EMU.

 

[northwichcat]

The Hull TPE would need to become a Liverpool (rather than the possible Chester) to stay EMU.

Unless Warrington Bank Quay to Chester is electrified, which isn't a long stretch. While 2tph on Chester-Warrington-Manchester is proposed in the Manchester Hub I think if Warrington to Chester is electrified the Llandudno service will need to either be cut at Chester or diverted semi-fast via the Mid-Cheshire line to improve the cost:benefit ratio of electrifying Warrington to Chester.

 

[Nym]

I think the Hull was always going to go to Liverpool, I think I threw Chester out there for if Electrification wasn't going to happen a long time ago.

 

[tbtc]

Really? Don't BBC Look North think the opposite?

You sure about that?

seems like Sheffield is in some sort of black hole which no one can see.

For those old enough to remember "War Of The Monster Trucks", the local media's bias in favour of Leeds/ against Sheffield goes back some time

 

[Waverley125]

is it just me that thinks we're overthinking this?

we might know what 'North Transpennine' means, but most people/journos etc. won't, so it makes sense for the government to identify two big cities in the north and use them as the terms of reference for the project. Manchester & Leeds makes sense.

Not electrifying to Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough would be lunacy, so I'm sure they'll be part of it.

 

[northwichcat]

we might know what 'North Transpennine' means, but most people/journos etc. won't, so it makes sense for the government to identify two big cities in the north and use them as the terms of reference for the project. Manchester & Leeds makes sense.

Probably North TransPennine would have meant more to most passengers before Blackpool, Cumbria and Scottish services started getting branded as 'TransPennine.'

Not electrifying to Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough would be lunacy, so I'm sure they'll be part of it.

Scarborough-York electrification has been seen as not having a strong enough case for electrification on two separate occasions when looked at by Network Rail. Other parts haven't been ruled out by Network rail.