North TPE electrification

[northwichcat]

Rumours are circulating that David Cameron is to visit Manchester today and is expected to announce a multi-billion pound push on UK economy which will include North TPE electrification.

 

[jones_bangor]

Rumours are circulating that David Cameron is to visit Manchester today and is expected to announce a multi-billion pound push on UK economy which will include North TPE electrification.

This is on the BBC website...45 minutes off Leeds - Liverpool journeys?

 

[Batman]

Rumours are circulating that David Cameron is to visit Manchester today and is expected to announce a multi-billion pound push on UK economy which will include North TPE electrification.

Like we've discussed on other threads loads of times before, North TPE electrification will only work if it runs all the way through to Hull, instead of finishing at Leeds.

And it's common sense that Leeds - York will need to be electrified.

 

[northwichcat]

This is on the BBC website...45 minutes off Leeds - Liverpool journeys?

Not quite. It says improvements between Liverpool and Leeds which will allow Liverpool to Newcastle to be done 45 minutes faster. Maybe the truncated Liverpool-Scarborough service will go to Newcastle and the 45 minutes includes removal of the connection time.

 

[PhilipW]

This is on the BBC website...45 minutes off Leeds - Liverpool journeys?

I think it is 45 mins off Newcastle to Liverpool journeys, as Neville Hill to Colton Junction electrification would be included in the scheme.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Any ideas what he's likely to propose ? Would this be an additional electrification programme between Manchester and York ?

 

[northwichcat]

Any ideas what he's likely to propose ? Would this be an additional electrification programme between Manchester and York ?

Yes.

It's almost certain to not include Scarborough though, with York-Scarborough likely being tagged on to the Blackpool-York service.

There is also a possibly that it won't include Middlesbrough but to get around that Newcastle-Manchester will go half-hourly and XC Voyagers from Southampton/Reading that terminate at Newcastle currently will instead go to Middlesbrough.

What rolling stock will be used is something that's been very quiet. Moving North TPE routes to XC or EC is something that was mooted in the franchise review, so if we're very lucky then maybe IEP on Manchester-Newcastle.

 

[LE Greys]

Yes.

It's almost certain to not include Scarborough though, with York-Scarborough likely being tagged on to the Blackpool-York service.

There is also a possibly that it won't include Middlesbrough but to get around that Newcastle-Manchester will go half-hourly and XC Voyagers from Southampton/Reading that terminate at Newcastle currently will instead go to Middlesbrough.

What rolling stock will be used is something that's been very quiet.

Sounds like a job for new 350s, unfortunately. I'd much rather see 379s provided they are set out in low-density seating layouts. The other rolling stock question is "What happens to the 185s?". Break some of them up ans insert the centre car into other 185s, then run the remainder in pairs would be one option. Another would be to cascade them to replace the 170s, which would go somewhere else. There's also the Highland Main Line, but for that they would need improved seating, or at least thicker cushions, and ideally some form of catering. If all the 185s were being replaced, I would send them as a block to FGW for the South Devon and Cornwall banks, cascading the 158s to replace their remaining Pacers, along with some elsewhere.

Of course, if the planners have any sense, they will cover all the lines around the West Riding that interact with North Trans-Pennine, so covering the Calder Valley as well, plus most of the other Huddersfield routes (the Penistone Line might not be economical). Might as well cover Manchester-Preston and the Hull Triangle, plus the branches to Scarborough and Middlesbrough. Basically, do what they are planning in Scotland with the Stirling and Alloa routes. It's unlikely that they will bring the old bores of Standedge Tunnel into use, but that's a consideration.

Hello, I'm back, by the way.

 

[northwichcat]

Sounds like a job for new 350s

If you want to propose Desiros then surly newer 380s. However, really something more like an AC version of a class 444 would be better suited.

The other rolling stock question is "What happens to the 185s?". Break some of them up ans insert the centre car into other 185s, then run the remainder in pairs would be one option. Another would be to cascade them to replace the 170s, which would go somewhere else.

We have many other threads on the 185s.

They cannot be broken down in to 2 and 4 car formations without major engineering plus the 2 car sets wouldn't have that many seats due to the design of the trains.

Network Rail proposed earlier in the year that should the government fund it electrifying North TPE and Valley Lines is the best way to start withdrawing Pacers.

There's also the Highland Main Line, but for that they would need improved seating, or at least thicker cushions, and ideally some form of catering.

The Highland Mainline is shorter than some of the routes 185s are used on currently. Yes they need thicker cushions but there is provision for on board trolley services.

If all the 185s were being replaced, I would send them as a block to FGW for the South Devon and Cornwall banks, cascading the 158s to replace their remaining Pacers, along with some elsewhere.

They aren't. South TPE isn't likely to be electrified in the forseeable future.

185s would be very overpowered for the Cornish and Devon lines.

It'd make sense to keep them at Manchester or move them to Scotrail because of where the Siemens manentaince depots are.

 

[Batman]

Yes.

It's almost certain to not include Scarborough though, with York-Scarborough likely being tagged on to the Blackpool-York service.

There is also a possibly that it won't include Middlesbrough but to get around that Newcastle-Manchester will go half-hourly and XC Voyagers from Southampton/Reading that terminate at Newcastle currently will instead go to Middlesbrough.

What rolling stock will be used is something that's been very quiet. Moving North TPE routes to XC or EC is something that was mooted in the franchise review, so if we're very lucky then maybe IEP on Manchester-Newcastle.

So we'll be seeing XC on Teesside.

Won't North Yorkshire County Council kick up a big fuss about the loss of through services from Scarborough to Manchester?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And although I'm sure they'll be glad to see a direct service to the Midlands and the South of England, wouldn't the unitary authorities on Teesside kick up a fuss about the loss of their through service to Manchester.

And as I understand it, the XC services that start/terminate at Newcastle run via Doncaster instead of Leeds, so they'd lose their direct service to Leeds as well.

 

[northwichcat]

Won't North Yorkshire County Council kick up a big fuss about the loss of through services from Scarborough to Manchester?

It was first suggested in 2009 in the draft electrification RUS and they didn't respond to that complaining AFAIK. Scarborough will lose direct services to Huddersfield, Manchester, Warrington and Liverpool but will gain direct services to Bradford, Halifax, Burnley, Accrington, Blackburn, Preston and Blackpool so it's not all bad.

And as I understand it, the XC services that start/terminate at Newcastle run via Doncaster instead of Leeds, so they'd lose their direct service to Leeds as well.

Didn't Arriva propose changing that so that Leeds gets a half hourly XC service?

 

[Batman]

It was first suggested in 2009 in the draft electrification RUS and they didn't respond to that complaining AFAIK. Scarborough will lose direct services to Huddersfield, Manchester, Warrington and Liverpool but will gain direct services to Bradford, Halifax, Burnley, Accrington, Blackburn, Preston and Blackpool so it's not all bad.

I just though the Manchester was more of an important stategic destination that Bradford, Preston, Blackpool and the other towns along the route.

Didn't Arriva propose changing that so that Leeds gets a half hourly XC service?

There is still one XC tph that runs via Doncaster instead of Leeds.

The Glasgow-Plymouth service runs via Leeds and the Newcastle-Reading service runs via Doncaster.

 

[LE Greys]

If you want to propose Desiros then surly newer 380s. However, really something more like an AC version of a class 444 would be better suited.

That's what I should have said. They might also be useful on the WCML routes, although that might require electrification to Barrow and Windamere, which would not really be justified. Still, the routes to Scotland can go over to EMUs.

We have many other threads on the 185s.

They cannot be broken down in to 2 and 4 car formations without major engineering plus the 2 car sets wouldn't have that many seats due to the design of the trains.

Network Rail proposed earlier in the year that should the government fund it electrifying North TPE and Valley Lines is the best way to start withdrawing Pacers.

That's rather annoying, I was wondering if there was some way to strengthen the formations on South TPX. Possibly doubling up on a more regular basis might be the only way.

They aren't. South TPE isn't likely to be electrified in the forseeable future.

185s would be very overpowered for the Cornish and Devon lines.

It'd make sense to keep them at Manchester or move them to Scotrail because of where the Siemens manentaince depots are.

I didn't think it would be, that was just a supposition. Still, the South Devon and Cornish banks are a lot tougher than they seem, I've been up them in a 150 and that had one heck of a struggle in some places. The other option I didn't mention is Waterloo-Exeter, which would allow the 159s to go to South Devon instead, and provide some compatibility with SWTs Desiros. Still, I'd prefer to see them on Scotrail, mainly so that we can finally get shot of the 158s (although electrification might lead to that anyway).

 

[WatcherZero]

My reactions on hearing the news:

Yay, electrification confirmed ahead of NR IIP approval
Caution, need to know details of how financing and when
Oh God, high likelihood a existing rolling stock order about to be signed will be delayed for over a year as its renegotiated to add more units.

If its to have any economic impact this would have to be done within five years give or take, if construction wont start within two years it will have no economic stimulus and will just be another project down the line after the economy has recovered in danger of being cancelled.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well it would be good news if they did announce it. But it could do with including middlsborough as well. Realistically anyway. Scarbrough definitely won't be included but it doesnt need to be, i have a friend in malton who says 90% of people travelling from beyond york get off at york and leeds so a service loss to manchester isnt really a big deal at all... There are worse places to change trains than york or leeds.
It would be very interesting if middlsborough got an XC service though might help middlsborough rail services having a long distance service calling there again. You never know with these things.

And it would appear getting past 2000 posts has slipped my attention... ah well.

 

[philjo]

As the Scarborough services are likely to be an extension of the existing Blackpool via Halifax to York service, the 185s could run Scarborough to Blackpool which would release some 158s for other routes.
A 2 car 158 is inadequate on the existing services anyway so an increase to 3 cars would help (6 cars at peak periods or run half hourly).

Another option would be to run some on the Marches services from Manchester to Cardiff. This would allow some 175s to replace 158s Birmingham to Holyhead so more ATW 158s are available for extra Cambrian coast services

 

[tbtc]

Didn't Arriva propose changing that so that Leeds gets a half hourly XC service?

They have asked to do it (citing that the Leeds - Sheffield section was the "busiest" part of the XC network) but at the moment they've only diverted an additional one or two via Leeds, the "via Doncaster" service is still basically hourly.

Diverting the Southampton/Reading trains to Middlesbrough would mean cutting the link from Leeds to Teesside (esp as there are no "Transpennine" services to Sunderland nowadys) and would push all the "North East of England to West Midlands" traffic onto the busy XC Leeds service that takes around fifteen minutes longer.

Of course, if the planners have any sense, they will cover all the lines around the West Riding that interact with North Trans-Pennine, so covering the Calder Valley as well, plus most of the other Huddersfield routes (the Penistone Line might not be economical). Might as well cover Manchester-Preston and the Hull Triangle, plus the branches to Scarborough and Middlesbrough. Basically, do what they are planning in Scotland with the Stirling and Alloa routes. It's unlikely that they will bring the old bores of Standedge Tunnel into use, but that's a consideration.

Hello, I'm back, by the way.

Welcome back

You are right - if they do it then they should do it properly, not just Manchester to York, but also the TPE extensions (Hull) and the neighbouring lines in/around West Yorkshire. Otherwise you end up with the problems experienced on the ECML over the past twenty years where the bare minimum was electrified with no other routes, meaning that the vast majority of services on the ECML north of York have remained DMU.

 

[shinkansen1966]

so it could look like this:

current
half hourly: Manchester Airport - York - Middlesbrough / Newcastle
hourly: Liverpool - York - Scarborough
hourly: Manchester Picc - Leeds - Hull


with electrification
electrics:
half hourly: Liverpool - Manchester Vic - York - Newcastle
half hourly: Manchester Airport - Manchester Picc - Manchester Vic (?) - York

diesels:
Blackpool - Bradford - York - Scarborough
Leeds - Hull
XC to Middlesbrough

Anything on the DfT web site yet ?

 

[jha4ceb]

so it could look like this:

with electrification
electrics:
half hourly: Liverpool - Manchester Vic - York - Newcastle
half hourly: Manchester Airport - Manchester Picc - Manchester Vic (?) - York

But how does this interact with the Northern Hub plans for 6tph between Leeds and Manchester via Huddersfield?

 

[tbtc]

so it could look like this:

current
half hourly: Manchester Airport - York - Middlesbrough / Newcastle
hourly: Liverpool - York - Scarborough
hourly: Manchester Picc - Leeds - Hull


with electrification
electrics:
half hourly: Liverpool - Manchester Vic - York - Newcastle
half hourly: Manchester Airport - Manchester Picc - Manchester Vic (?) - York

diesels:
Blackpool - Bradford - York - Scarborough
Leeds - Hull
XC to Middlesbrough

Anything on the DfT web site yet ?

I imagine that if electrification happens, there'd be six/hour from Manchester to Leeds, replacing the need for the Manchester Victoria - Huddersfield stopper (and maybe the Huddersfield - Leeds stopper?), so the whole service patterns would be different.

Not wiring to Hull would be a mistake (esp as doing Selby - Hull would allow the Hull - London service to move to EMU, with potential to complete the old GNER "Horseshoe" for Leeds services too)... maybe there's scope for the TPE South service to be replaced by four coach 158s running Manchester Airport - Sheffield - Doncaster, splitting for Hull (two coaches) or Cleethorpes (two coaches)?

 

[Nym]

Well, if it's what Network Rail proposed that is all of the TPE North network excluding Scarborough, then it will be very nice thank you very much.

Scarborough would be handled better by an extension of the Blackpool - York service and possibly an additional hourly shuttle to York making Scarborough - York 2tph.

Rolling Stock wise I'd like to see some ahead planning and a fleet of 5 or 6 car 380 units ordered, they already exist, the're already type approved, and they work.

Preferably, 6 car, 1 car of 1st class at the end like on the 185s now, and in part of one of the carrages, (the space between the doors and the end of the carrage, I'd quite like a mini shop / buffet a'la Virgin Trains.

6 car units for a good reason, this is the longest that you can fit into the centre of the TPE network, Manchester Oxford Road, possibly 5 car if this would be long enough and to be able to fit into Newcastle Central's bays, although if they can fit into the through platforms instead then that might be a much better option.

6 Car, with SDO...

Then then 185 fleet will be used on other diagrams that are express and based around Manchester, with their use kept as a seperate brand of the franchise, "Northern Express" or somthing, keeping the 1st class accomadation.

Assuming current levels of electrification, and the same 380 stock being used on all of the current TPE network where possible (ie. Blackpool - Airport) then the 185s can be used on...

Barrow - Manchester
Blackpool N - Scarborough
Calder Valley Semi Fasts (Not the slows), the ones extending to an Airport.
TPE South, doubled up through the Hope Valley would be nice, possibly split half and half for Hull and Cleethorpes.

 

[wintonian]

Any time scale for this yet?

 

[Nym]

Hasn't been announced yet to my knowlege

 

[table38]

MEN says "yes":

Prime minister David Cameron toured Northern Rail's maintenance depot in Newton Heath ahead of Mr Osborne's announcement.

He said: "I am delighted to give the green light to these major projects. They will provide a massive boost for Manchester."

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/s/1466231_governments-green-light-for-a6-link-to-manchester-airport-and-electrification-of-train-line-to-leeds

 

[northwichcat]

We still don't know whether Middlesbrough and Hull are being included or not.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks to me as though the TP project has been nodded into the NR CP5 programme (2014-19) and will be a follow-on to the NW triangle which will be completed in 2017.
I would guess a completion in 2019-ish.

It will also impact the Northern Hub proposal, which is not mentioned.
Northern Hub is independent of electrification but some of the costs overlap (eg new loops via Standedge, new platforms at Man V etc).

The investment decision is business-led not railway-led and I wouldn't expect much more detail until DfT and NR have put real plans together and tested the Treasury's resolve on subjects like new rolling stock and where the wires will end in Yorkshire!

All of the announced infrastructure projects are in England.
I expect there will be some additional scraps for Wales and Scotland announced locally.

 

[shinkansen1966]

We still don't know whether Middlesbrough and Hull are being included or not.

I'm guessing not.

Government press announcements are all about putting the maximum spin with the minimum spend. During the current government's period in office, exactly what new schemes have been announced which had not already been announced by the outgoing Labour government prior to May 2010 ?

In additional to the other electrification schemes which have already been confirmed, this will add about 60 miles to the electric network from Manchester to just west of Leeds, and from Neville Hill to Colton Junction.

Mr Osborne will say it represents a massive boost to the economy or some similar hyperbole.

 

[northwichcat]

Looks to me as though the TP project has been nodded into the NR CP5 programme (2014-19)

Network Rail proposed that, subject to government funding, as a way of getting Pacers replaced by EMUs a couple of months back.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Looks to me as though the TP project has been nodded into the NR CP5 programme (2014-19) and will be a follow-on to the NW triangle which will be completed in 2017. I would guess a completion in 2019-ish.

Another 7-8 years from now to electrify 65 miles of railway ? That's ages !

 

[northwichcat]

Diverting the Southampton/Reading trains to Middlesbrough would mean cutting the link from Leeds to Teesside (esp as there are no "Transpennine" services to Sunderland nowadys) and would push all the "North East of England to West Midlands" traffic onto the busy XC Leeds service that takes around fifteen minutes longer.

The logical solution would be to switch which one goes via Leeds. There will probably be a ECML timetable recast before TPE electrification is done.