New TPE Train Discussion

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do we count the 332/333 as CAF?

I think they are basically Siemens EMUs which CAF built for them.
In particular they have Siemens electrics.
There's no hint yet how the Northern/TPE EMUs will be powered, or what Train Management System they will have.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With regard to the door arrangements on the new EMUs, I assume that Civity much like the Desiro and Coradia/Juniper ranges, are offered in a variety of guises. The WCML fleet probably doesn't need the commuter style setup as much as the North TPE fleet does, but if it does that doesn't necessarily meant it won't be appropriate. People seem to get rather hung up on door positions but it's far more important that there's enough space for everyone, and that the accomodation is comfortable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they are basically Siemens EMUs which CAF built for them.

They are CAF bodies (the almost Mk1-like, high, curved ceiling inside is very distinctly CAF's style) with Siemens traction equipment.
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With regard to the door arrangements on the new EMUs, I assume that Civity much like the Desiro and Coradia/Juniper ranges, are offered in a variety of guises. The WCML fleet probably doesn't need the commuter style setup as much as the North TPE fleet does, but if it does that doesn't necessarily meant it won't be appropriate. People seem to get rather hung up on door positions but it's far more important that there's enough space for everyone, and that the accomodation is comfortable.

They are not going to be commuter-layout - look at the pictures on TPE's site. It looks like they will be end-doored - both the EMUs and the LHCS. Indeed, they look like being the same bodies, just the LHCS won't have traction equipment.

The WCML services do not need commuter door layouts (while there is no harm in them they are not needed) - they are proper InterCity services.
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If you mean the picture on the TPE announcement today, it appears to be the same one they used for the AT300s on 1 April.

It isn't. Look at the window size and doors of the units shown on today's and compare with the AT300 one.
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Yet TPE are still going on about new services starting in December 2017. Today's press release seems to confirm there's an unknown interim solution which TPE haven't announced.

I can't see anything of that nature in the press release.

 

[43074]

Yet TPE are still going on about new services starting in December 2017. Today's press release seems to confirm there's an unknown interim solution which TPE haven't announced.

Richard Clinnick has posted in one of the 68 groups on Facebook that the Pretendolino moves to TPE in July for training; haven't heard that elsewhere but presumably he's been informed by his sources in the industry.

 

[507021]

If you mean the picture on the TPE announcement today, it appears to be the same one they used for the AT300s on 1 April.

It must have been updated, because today's announcement now shows a picture of a CAF unit.

They do look really smart though I have to say. I can't wait to see them enter service, especially as they'll be on a route I use fairly regularly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It must have been updated, because today's announcement now shows a picture of a CAF unit.

They do look really smart though I have to say. I can't wait to see them enter service, especially as they'll be on a route I use fairly regularly.

I must admit that First's old "transforming travel" slogan would seem to apply here - they really are transforming TPE into something it should have been in the first place.

 

[notlob.divad]

Excellent news that this has finally been signed and agreed upon after the months of speculation. I would have liked to have seen 125mph tilt on the WCML trains, but that debate could rage on forever with pros and cons on both sides.

If you mean the picture on the TPE announcement today, it appears to be the same one they used for the AT300s on 1 April.

Not quite, the headlights are a tell tale sign that the two mock ups are different. I would therefore agree with the previous poster that is looks like the TPE EMUs will have end doors whilst the Northern CAF units will have the more commuter style. Cannot say I disagree with this as it does differentiate between what are supposed to be intercity services and what are supposed to be local/regional commuter services.

Given that we now have five CAF fleets (CS, Northern x2, TPE x2) you'd have expected some economies of scale on maintenance.
Alstom are doing CS and TPE (Longsight, Edge Hill, Polmadie), but Northern says it is going to use "existing depots", presumably Allerton, Newton Heath and Neville Hill.

Quite, and the location of the CAF 'Central Distribution Hub will' be rather interesting. I feel that Allerton will increasingly be focused on the maintenance of the 319s. With the new CAF units only being stabled there.

I did make a point on the thread about Alstom's new facility in Widnes that I would be interested in how they co-ordinate maintenance activities between that and Edge Hill. Would transferring the Pendolinos to the new facility for the Major overhaul they will be needing at some point and turning the Edge Hill facility to mainly service the CAF fleet be an option?

As for the Central Distribution Hub.... guesses please.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't see anything of that nature in the press release.

The new press release confirms the Spring 2018 date for the new sets when the previous announcement said

with the first new trains to be delivered by Spring 2018
...
with two trains per hour service to Newcastle in December 2017

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2016/01-04-16.aspx

So there is still some missing information with regards to rolling stock. The new Leeds-Manchester service has to start in December 2017 as well, so the remaining 185s released off former TPE North West routes can't cover both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they ceased all 6 car working, bad though that would be, would they have enough?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TIt isn't. Look at the window size and doors of the units shown on today's and compare with the AT300 one.

Yes, I see the differences now.
No doubt from the same design studio though!
I thought for a minute your "end-doored" comment meant a corridor connection, which thankfully doesn't figure on any of the Northern/TPE orders.

I guess attention now centres on how well a 68-hauled 5-car set is going to climb up to Standedge and Morley tunnels.
That and what the other end of the train is going to look like.

 

[po8crg]

At what point should we have two separate threads, one for the LHCS build/delivery/testing/entry into service and the other for the same for the EMUs? I suggest that "when we get a TOPS number for the EMUs" would be a good time to do that.

 

[507021]

I must admit that First's old "transforming travel" slogan would seem to apply here - they really are transforming TPE into something it should have been in the first place.

Completely agreed, I think the introduction of the Liverpool to Glasgow route is long overdue as well.

I wonder if the new carriage stock will be classified as Mark 5?

 

[NotATrainspott]

These are the two images released by TPE today. Both use the same background as images used to show off the AT300s and since the livery and overall design is quite similar, it is understandable why there has been some confusion. However, both trains appear to show 'Glasgow Central' as their destination so it looks like both images depict the new EMUs, not the loco hauled rakes.

It would be quite a neat solution if the new LHCS consisted of the same design as the EMUs, minus the traction package. While the underbody of the sleeper carriages will be taken up by extra tanks for sewage and fresh water for the en-suite toilets and showers, the space used up by the transformer and traction electrics on the EMUs would simply go unused on unpowered carriages. With only 12 and 13 sets of 5 vehicles in each fleet, they may as well share as many components as is physically possible. Alternatively, if the loco-hauled vehicles were geared towards commuter use, they could be unpowered versions of the new Northern MUs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At what point should we have two separate threads, one for the LHCS build/delivery/testing/entry into service and the other for the same for the EMUs? I suggest that "when we get a TOPS number for the EMUs" would be a good time to do that.

Good suggestion. As for the LHCS, is this officially "Mk.5"? Technically it should be Mk.6 or 7, as Mk.5 was used for both the unbuilt IC250 project and the aborted Nightstar stock.

 

[notlob.divad]

It would be quite a neat solution if the new LHCS consisted of the same design as the EMUs, minus the traction package. While the underbody of the sleeper carriages will be taken up by extra tanks for sewage and fresh water for the en-suite toilets and showers, the space used up by the transformer and traction electrics on the EMUs would simply go unused on unpowered carriages. With only 12 and 13 sets of 5 vehicles in each fleet, they may as well share as many components as is physically possible. [/QUOTE]

Not sure if this is feasible, but if they where built to the same design, could the electrical traction package be added at a later date to turn them into EMUs. Once the Manchester-York wires are up TPE will be looking for more EMUs. Rather than replacing with an Electric Loco, could the carriages be converted to EMUs like the others. If you can add on the drivers cabs you stick with the same number, else if need new Front and End cabs, you can distribute the extra units to make 6 car sets everywhere.

 

[bnsf734]

There is another announcement in International Railway Journal today here:

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/caf-to-supply-trains-to-transpennine-express.html?channel=529

which is quoted below:

BRITISH train operator TransPennine Express (TPE) has selected CAF, Spain, to supply and maintain a fleet of 200km/h inter-city EMUs as well as coaches to be hauled by class 68 locomotives under a total investment worth £230m.


CAF will build 12 five-car Civity UK InterCity EMUs under a deal worth £120m to be funded by British rolling stock leasing company Eversholt Rail Group. The trains are scheduled to enter service on the Manchester/Liverpool – Glasgow/Edinburgh route in 2019 replacing Siemens class 350/4 177km/h EMUs.

The acquisition of 13 sets of five-car locomotive-hauled coaches will be financed by Beacon Rail Leasing, the owner of the class 68 diesel locomotives which will be leased to TPE by Direct Rail Services. These trains will be delivered in 2018 and will initially be deployed on the Liverpool – Manchester – Leeds – Newcastle route replacing three-car class 185 DMUs. However, with the delivery of Hitachi AT300 bi-mode trains for this route in 2019, the locomotive-hauled sets will be redeployed on Liverpool - Scarborough and Manchester Airport - Middlesbrough services.

All the new trains will be air-conditioned, and will have Wi-Fi and servers to enable passengers to stream TV shows and films.

CAF will maintain the new trains until the TransPennine Express franchise, which is held by First Group, expires in 2023. As a result of winning this and another contract in January to supply 43 EMUs and 55 DMUs to Arriva Rail North for its Northern franchise, CAF says it plans to establish facilities in Britain to assembly, test and maintain rolling stock, and to set up a spares supply and management logistics centre.

TPE also awarded a contract to Hitachi Rail in March to supply 19 five-car bi-mode (diesel and electric) AT300 multiple units as part of a £500m franchise commitment to expand its rolling stock fleet.

The interesting part of this are the plans by CAF to set up facilities in Britain to facilities in Britain to assembly[sic], test and maintain rolling stock, and to set up a spares supply and management logistics centre.

Thinking ahead a few years when the overhead electrification spreads east...
then the class 68's could be replaced by class 88's.

 

[Domh245]

Not sure if this is feasible, but if they where built to the same design, could the electrical traction package be added at a later date to turn them into EMUs. Once the Manchester-York wires are up TPE will be looking for more EMUs. Rather than replacing with an Electric Loco, could the carriages be converted to EMUs like the others. If you can add on the drivers cabs you stick with the same number, else if need new Front and End cabs, you can distribute the extra units to make 6 car sets everywhere.

To do that would require changing the bogies from unmotored to motored. Not impossible, but expensive! Not only would it require changing the bogies themselves, but it'd also need suspension changes, followed by re-gauging and a likely rise in track access fees.
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The interesting part of this are the plans by CAF to set up facilities in Britain to facilities in Britain to assembly[sic], test and maintain rolling stock, and to set up a spares supply and management logistics centre.

That is good news! I'm not sure what they would be assembling in the UK, I'm not sure that they've got enough orders to merit it (especially when their home plants are short of orders) but maintenance and spares management would be pretty good.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely the hauled stock will just be the sleeper stock that they're building for Caledonian Sleeper but tweaked to be day coaches rather than night coaches?

 

[Whistler40145]

Regarding the use of 88s in place of 68s, what's the maximum distance the locos can be used on the diesel engine?

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[northwichcat]

The interesting part of this are the plans by CAF to set up facilities in Britain to facilities in Britain to assembly[sic], test and maintain rolling stock, and to set up a spares supply and management logistics centre.

That Rail Journal article contradicts the First Press Release which says they've agreed a maintenance contract with Alstom for the new CAF trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thinking ahead a few years when the overhead electrification spreads east...
then the class 68's could be replaced by class 88's.

That still wouldn't give you 125mph capability, and if they are on the Scarborough/Middlesbrough services there would need to be a loco-swap somewhere.
Much more likely they will get EMUs for Newcastle/Edinburgh services and cascade the bi-modes to other services at that point.

 

[bnsf734]

Further searching has produced this artists impression from "El Correo" which shows 2 different designs.

Is the design in the background for the driving trailer of the loco-hauled sets?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That still wouldn't give you 125mph capability, and if they are on the Scarborough/Middlesbrough services there would need to be a loco-swap somewhere.
Much more likely they will get EMUs for Newcastle/Edinburgh services and cascade the bi-modes to other services at that point.

While I guess the LHCS, if it is proper LHCS and not just EMU with no traction package and one blunt end, could be reformed into longer sets.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That Rail Journal article contradicts the First Press Release which says they've agreed a maintenance contract with Alstom for the new CAF trains.

The TPE announcement includes a quote from Alstom so they are definitely doing the maintenance.
CAF will not doubt have a base for spares and testing as manufacturer.
Again it matters whose traction package is going to be used.

 

[James_D]

The new press release confirms the Spring 2018 date for the new sets when the previous announcement said


http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2016/01-04-16.aspx

So there is still some missing information with regards to rolling stock. The new Leeds-Manchester service has to start in December 2017 as well, so the remaining 185s released off former TPE North West routes can't cover both.

On this press release, it says "220 brand new carriages will be introduced by 2020, providing an additional 13m seats a year. These state of the art trains, all with capabilities of going 125 mph"

That bit about all the new stock being 125mph capable is not going to be true is it, if the LHCS stock is Class 68 hauled? They only do 100mph dont they?

 

[Deepgreen]

On this press release, it says "220 brand new carriages will be introduced by 2020, providing an additional 13m seats a year. These state of the art trains, all with capabilities of going 125 mph"

That bit about all the new stock being 125mph capable is not going to be true is it, if the LHCS stock is Class 68 hauled? They only do 100mph dont they?

I assume it means that the stock will be passed/designed for 125mph operation, but that will depend on what is provided to haul it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I assume it means that the stock will be passed/designed for 125mph operation, but that will depend on what is provided to haul it.

And non-tilt stock is limited to 110mph on the WCML.

 

[NotATrainspott]

To do that would require changing the bogies from unmotored to motored. Not impossible, but expensive! Not only would it require changing the bogies themselves, but it'd also need suspension changes, followed by re-gauging and a likely rise in track access fees.
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That is good news! I'm not sure what they would be assembling in the UK, I'm not sure that they've got enough orders to merit it (especially when their home plants are short of orders) but maintenance and spares management would be pretty good.

Further searching has produced this artists impression from "El Correo" which shows 2 different designs.

Is the design in the background for the driving trailer of the loco-hauled sets?

For comparison, here's a Class 331 from the CAF website.

Surely the hauled stock will just be the sleeper stock that they're building for Caledonian Sleeper but tweaked to be day coaches rather than night coaches?

On this press release, it says "220 brand new carriages will be introduced by 2020, providing an additional 13m seats a year. These state of the art trains, all with capabilities of going 125 mph"

That bit about all the new stock being 125mph capable is not going to be true is it, if the LHCS stock is Class 68 hauled? They only do 100mph dont they?

If the FirstGroup-branded render is accurate, then it would appear that the loco hauled rakes have the cab of the Northern multiple units but are not the same, as they have the same layout as the Anglo-Scottish EMUs minus cut-outs for the windows. That really doesn't make a lot of sense. Surely if the loco hauled carriages actually are capable of 125mph they'll have the same driving cab as the EMUs with the same passenger provision right behind them? Or if they are limited to 100mph, why not use up every last metre of carriage length for passengers?

This still doesn't make much sense.

 

[po8crg]

That shot in the background reminds me of the 331 (CAF Northern EMU) renders

 

[edwin_m]

To do that would require changing the bogies from unmotored to motored. Not impossible, but expensive! Not only would it require changing the bogies themselves, but it'd also need suspension changes, followed by re-gauging and a likely rise in track access fees.

I don't see any reason why they couldn't build them with the EMU bogies but omit the traction motors and electronics. Some adjustments would be needed if they were converted to EMUs, but they would then become identical in all important respects to the EMUs that were built as such from new. So the gauging and approval risks aren't huge.

Any increase in track access for the coaches when they become powered would be more than offset by not having to pay track access for the locomotive (or a similar charge for an electric loco).

Not saying that I think these will be convertible, but I don't think it would be impossible.