New TPE Train Discussion

[andyb2706]

Hats off to the new Northern franchise they didn't hang around in ordering their new trains.

However First seem to be very quiet about their trains and they are desperately needed. I've just boarded the 2009 to Liverpool at Leeds and it is standing room only, the 1953 TPE train to Manchester Airport was the same. They need to get this sorted as soon as possible.

 

[dquebec]

Hats off to the new Northern franchise they didn't hang around in ordering their new trains.

However First seem to be very quiet about their trains and they are desperately needed. I've just boarded the 2009 to Liverpool at Leeds and it is standing room only, the 1953 TPE train to Manchester Airport was the same. They need to get this sorted as soon as possible.

The new trains are for the Scottish services, so you won't see any difference until TP electrification - several years away.

 

[Haydn1971]

The new trains are for the Scottish services, so you won't see any difference until TP electrification - several years away.

That's not correct - Bi-mode trains are being ordered for TPE North

 

[andyb2706]

The new trains are for the Scottish services, so you won't see any difference until TP electrification - several years away.

There are 44 units to be ordered. Some are just electric and the others are 125mph bi-mode units to be used on the Manchester-Leeds corridor.
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The new trains are for the Scottish services, so you won't see any difference until TP electrification - several years away.

There are 44 units to be ordered. Some are just electric and the others are 125mph bi-mode units to be used on the Manchester-Leeds corridor. All are supposed to be 5 car trains. .

 

[Dave1987]

In the last edition of MR it said TPE are jumping on the bi-mode bandwagon. Im sure the DFT were delighted when First group proposed that. No doubt any future franchise bidder that proposes bi-modes for a franchise will be looked on far more favourably. I wouldn't be surprised if there were bi-modes everywhere within 10 yrs :roll:

 

[D365]

In the last edition of MR it said TPE are jumping on the bi-mode bandwagon. Im sure the DFT were delighted when First group proposed that. No doubt any future franchise bidder that proposes bi-modes for a franchise will be looked on far more favourably. I wouldn't be surprised if there were bi-modes everywhere within 10 yrs :roll:

Oh do remind me why that is...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

In the last edition of MR it said TPE are jumping on the bi-mode bandwagon. Im sure the DFT were delighted when First group proposed that. No doubt any future franchise bidder that proposes bi-modes for a franchise will be looked on far more favourably. I wouldn't be surprised if there were bi-modes everywhere within 10 yrs :roll:

I do hope so, from an electrification planning perspective, being able to separate out electrification from rolling stock procurement/provision is a massive benefit, it allows us to plan a cohesive strategy which is cost effective, not a knee jerk reaction to stock issues.

I wouldn't be opposed to bi-mode units being cascaded elsewhere when entire operating areas are wired, backfilling with new electric stock, but we're 20 to 25 years away from many operating areas being completely wired.

 

[Dave1987]

I do hope so, from an electrification planning perspective, being able to separate out electrification from rolling stock procurement/provision is a massive benefit, it allows us to plan a cohesive strategy which is cost effective, not a knee jerk reaction to stock issues.

I wouldn't be opposed to bi-mode units being cascaded elsewhere when entire operating areas are wired, backfilling with new electric stock, but we're 20 to 25 years away from many operating areas being completely wired.

Blimey have you actually been reading about the massive balls up of GW electrification that NR & the DFT have been making? I wouldn't trust them to plan their way out of a paper bag! The bi-modes just give them an excuse to push back electrification projects without suffering the political embarrassment. If they had planned electrification properly there would be no need for bi-modes at all. Please tell me how many other countries are using bi-modes if they are such a fantastic idea?

 

[WatcherZero]

France, germany, italy, poland, russia, spain, canada, south africa, uk have had or having bi-mode locos.

Bi mode multiple units, Uk, Italy, france, india and prototypes in China and Japan.

 

[TRAX]

Indeed France has approx. 330 modern BMUs (and approx. 50 % of our network is electrified).

 

[SpacePhoenix]

France, germany, italy, poland, russia, spain, canada, south africa, uk have had or having bi-mode locos.

Bi mode multiple units, Uk, Italy, france, india and prototypes in China and Japan.

How many of them countries has a loading gauge the same as the UK?

 

[absolutelymilk]

How many of them countries has a loading gauge the same as the UK?

None unfortunately. See the loading gauge thread Loading gauge discussion for more information.
(Or Wikipedia!)

 

[Haydn1971]

France, germany, italy, poland, russia, spain, canada, south africa, uk have had or having bi-mode locos. Bi mode multiple units, Uk, Italy, france, india and prototypes in China and Japan.

Cheers WZ - that gave me a good chuckle this morning as it completely blew Daves futile argument out the water

 

[northwichcat]

Someone posted in the Northern/TPE franchise award thread that an internal communication said the contracts for new trains was expected to be signed during February.
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In the last edition of MR it said TPE are jumping on the bi-mode bandwagon. Im sure the DFT were delighted when First group proposed that. No doubt any future franchise bidder that proposes bi-modes for a franchise will be looked on far more favourably. I wouldn't be surprised if there were bi-modes everywhere within 10 yrs :roll:

Well it's rumoured the person at DfT who's responsible for IEP wanted loco-hauled 442s on North TPE but he didn't get his way.

If North TPE wiring runs to (the revised) schedule and the routes remain the same then it's possible TPE will get new EMUs for Newcastle services and the bi-modes can then be cascaded to other partially electrified routes.

 

[Haydn1971]

If North TPE wiring runs to (the revised) schedule and the routes remain the same then it's possible TPE will get new EMUs for Newcastle services and the bi-modes can then be cascaded to other partially electrified routes.

Phew, that's a long term view thread discussion there... One view could be a big order of pure EMU's for the next TPE franchise in 2023, but where would the yet to be introduced bi-mode fleet go ? Just about all the existing franchises will have been renewed by 2023, with probably many more bi-mode type deployments - another view could be that TPE simply remove all but one of the diesel power packs leaving EMU's with limp home capability.

The real headache post 2023 comes when new franchises are asked to start preparing fleets for HS2 integration in 2026 (WCML and Chiltern mainly at first) and even more so for Phase 2 as that comes into use and blows apart the existing intercity service models for MML/ECML/XC as well

 

[RobShipway]

Which out of the electrification of the TPE routes or electrification of the Midland Mainline is likely to be finished first?

Not sure if this is how it is going to work, but for me if any 125mph bi - mode trains go to TPE and then move on, I am suspecting they will move on to the MML possibly?

 

[northwichcat]

Phew, that's a long term view thread discussion there... One view could be a big order of pure EMU's for the next TPE franchise in 2023, but where would the yet to be introduced bi-mode fleet go ? Just about all the existing franchises will have been renewed by 2023, with probably many more bi-mode type deployments - another view could be that TPE simply remove all but one of the diesel power packs leaving EMU's with limp home capability.

The real headache post 2023 comes when new franchises are asked to start preparing fleets for HS2 integration in 2026 (WCML and Chiltern mainly at first) and even more so for Phase 2 as that comes into use and blows apart the existing intercity service models for MML/ECML/XC as well

The way I see it Manchester to York is being electrified but Scarborough, Middlesbrough are not, whether Hull is now Hull Trains are getting bi-mode is questionable and the diversionary routes for North TPE (via Warrington, Brighouse and Wakefield) are not yet being electrified.

Because of the above I can't see North TPE being operated only by fully electric trains for a very long time. However, I do think they could switch their Newcastle services to electric only which will free up some bi-modes for other partially electrified services. Maybe those would be the TPE routes which will still have 185s after the new order, maybe it'll be the hourly Manchester to South Coast services it's impossible to say especially when we don't even know the exact trains First TPE are getting.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Blimey have you actually been reading about the massive balls up of GW electrification that NR & the DFT have been making? I wouldn't trust them to plan their way out of a paper bag! The bi-modes just give them an excuse to push back electrification projects without suffering the political embarrassment. If they had planned electrification properly there would be no need for bi-modes at all. Please tell me how many other countries are using bi-modes if they are such a fantastic idea?

If bimodes allow electrification to be pushed back/avoided, why not just never electrify anything and stick with diesels?!? After all, that would be much easier from a management and planning perspective. That's the logical conclusion of your argument, at least.

With bimodes, electrification will still happen. There are still issues with running any trains around that work on diesel, but at least they allow us to run the electrified routes we have optimally.

 

[northwichcat]

If bimodes allow electrification to be pushed back/avoided, why not just never electrify anything and stick with diesels?!? After all, that would be much easier from a management and planning perspective. That's the logical conclusion of your argument, at least.

With bimodes, electrification will still happen. There are still issues with running any trains around that work on diesel, but at least they allow us to run the electrified routes we have optimally.

Bimodes for TPE will also prevent the TPE franchise going down the same route as the West Coast one and saying they need diesel stock for fully electrified routes to allow for diversions on non-electrified lines.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I wouldn't trust them to plan their way out of a paper bag!

I would have replied sooner, but got stuck in a paper bag.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

whether Hull is now Hull Trains are getting bi-mode is questionable

The plan is still very much for Hull to be electrified, it's past GRIP2 and GRIP3 is funded but not yet complete, it will hopefully pass through GRIP4 prior to the CP6 funding determination and leave us with a scheme that's ready for some development work and route clearance work early in CP6, with electrification work able to start when assets are available, either ex MML or ex North TransPennine.

The route is technically unchallenging, but there are a couple of spots that will need extra special attention, primarily the Selby swing bridge, and Hull Paragon station.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Blimey have you actually been reading about the massive balls up of GW electrification that NR & the DFT have been making? I wouldn't trust them to plan their way out of a paper bag! The bi-modes just give them an excuse to push back electrification projects without suffering the political embarrassment. If they had planned electrification properly there would be no need for bi-modes at all. Please tell me how many other countries are using bi-modes if they are such a fantastic idea?

Your assumption being that they know that they are in a paper bag and that they need to get out of it. Surely some hefty consultancy work there to scope the scale and nature of the problem, prepare possible exit strategies and then a multi-stage process to assess the options, costs, risks and benefits leading to a conclusion which has become superseded due to the natural degradation of said (alleged) paper bag.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hats off to the new Northern franchise they didn't hang around in ordering their new trains.

However First seem to be very quiet about their trains and they are desperately needed...

It will have been sorted, and all over bar the final signing, these things don't just happen in a few weeks after the franchise announcement. Negotiations go on for many months prior to the DfT's decision. Perhaps TPE just didn't want to make their announcement in the same period as Northern, as suggested in an earlier thread?

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Blimey have you actually been reading about the massive balls up of GW electrification that NR & the DFT have been making?

I think he knows far more than you probably do about GW electrification, and going by the detail in his posts he writes from an insider's position.

 

[Dave1987]

Bi mode multiple units, Uk, Italy, france, india and prototypes in China and Japan.

So no Germany on that list? And having Google'd all those you have said about they are hardly ubiquitous are they? People on this forum talk about bi-modes as being the future of British rail travel for the next 20 odd years! If they are that good I would expect countries like Germany to have fleets of them. Also if other countries have a couple of trains that are bi-modes they why do Hitachi need to spend hundreds of millions of £'s on R&D when the tech already exists?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If bimodes allow electrification to be pushed back/avoided, why not just never electrify anything and stick with diesels?!? After all, that would be much easier from a management and planning perspective. That's the logical conclusion of your argument, at least.

With bimodes, electrification will still happen. There are still issues with running any trains around that work on diesel, but at least they allow us to run the electrified routes we have optimally.

Because the politicians know they can push back electrification schemes will little consequence. Bi-modes are a transport politicians wet dream as they don't have to commit and meet deadlines on electrification and can "pause" projects and get away with it.

 

[Haydn1971]

People on this forum talk about bi-modes as being the future of British rail travel for the next 20 odd years!

It's not talk, it's reality... It's going to happen like it or not

 

[Bletchleyite]

So no Germany on that list? And having Google'd all those you have said about they are hardly ubiquitous are they? People on this forum talk about bi-modes as being the future of British rail travel for the next 20 odd years! If they are that good I would expect countries like Germany to have fleets of them. Also if other countries have a couple of trains that are bi-modes they why do Hitachi need to spend hundreds of millions of £'s on R&D when the tech already exists?

AKN near Hamburg used to have a few that ran onto the S-Bahn network, but they were little more than bogied bi-mode Pacers.

 

[Dave1987]

I think he knows far more than you probably do about GW electrification, and going by the detail in his posts he writes from an insider's position.

Well if that is true then it's not exactly anything to shout about from what I have read. £800m to £3bn escalation in costs! This high output piling thing that is only complete a fraction of the required piles per night because they did no research on where the signalling cables were or the type of ground the piles where going into. The fact they insisted the prefabricated piles were of 5 metre lengths (or something like that), some piles need far less but others needed more so they had to stack them one on top of another so they had 10 metre foundations (enough to build a 5 storey house on!). The structures being far taller than necessary so they needed to be designed stronger to cope with higher wind forces. Ian Walmsley went into great detail about all this in one of his columns. Its very very easy to see why the costs have escalated so high and all because the DFT and NR didn't do their homework first and ploughed along with huge assumptions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not talk, it's reality... It's going to happen like it or not

We will see! As has been said in other threads you can't get away with high floors on commuter stock with middle doors. So you either have smaller engines and decreased performance or increased station dwell times. But yes I know you and a few others are seemingly wanting vast fleets of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which out of the electrification of the TPE routes or electrification of the Midland Mainline is likely to be finished first?

Not sure if this is how it is going to work, but for me if any 125mph bi - mode trains go to TPE and then move on, I am suspecting they will move on to the MML possibly?

CrossCountry?

 

[jimm]

So no Germany on that list? And having Google'd all those you have said about they are hardly ubiquitous are they? People on this forum talk about bi-modes as being the future of British rail travel for the next 20 odd years! If they are that good I would expect countries like Germany to have fleets of them. Also if other countries have a couple of trains that are bi-modes they why do Hitachi need to spend hundreds of millions of £'s on R&D when the tech already exists?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Because the politicians know they can push back electrification schemes will little consequence. Bi-modes are a transport politicians wet dream as they don't have to commit and meet deadlines on electrification and can "pause" projects and get away with it.

Well if that is true then it's not exactly anything to shout about from what I have read. £800m to £3bn escalation in costs! This high output piling thing that is only complete a fraction of the required piles per night because they did no research on where the signalling cables were or the type of ground the piles where going into. The fact they insisted the prefabricated piles were of 5 metre lengths (or something like that), some piles need far less but others needed more so they had to stack them one on top of another so they had 10 metre foundations (enough to build a 5 storey house on!). The structures being far taller than necessary so they needed to be designed stronger to cope with higher wind forces. Ian Walmsley went into great detail about all this in one of his columns. Its very very easy to see why the costs have escalated so high and all because the DFT and NR didn't do their homework first and ploughed along with huge assumptions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


We will see! As has been said in other threads you can't get away with high floors on commuter stock with middle doors. So you either have smaller engines and decreased performance or increased station dwell times. But yes I know you and a few others are seemingly wanting vast fleets of them.

Moan, moan, moan, moan. How many years have we been listening to this now?

Please don't pretend you actually want anyone to answer your questions, because you pay no attention whatever when anyone does try to answer them. Same as you pay no attention to anything anyone else posts either - unless it agrees with your world view. Nor do you ever explain where all the wiring is going to come from in the blink of an eye that would remove the need to order bi-modes.

 

[Haydn1971]

We will see!

Really ? Last I looked there are 347 bi-mode carriages on delivery for the IEP contract, plus another 173 for First for Great Western, plus another 25 for Hull Trains... Oh, plus another huge order for bi-mode trains, probably based on the AT300 design... There's no "we will see" it's happening my dear chap

 

[absolutelymilk]

So no Germany on that list?

Presumably because most of their network is electrified and they don't have many plans to electrify more of it?

Also if other countries have a couple of trains that are bi-modes they why do Hitachi need to spend hundreds of millions of £'s on R&D when the tech already exists?

See the discussion on loading gauge - basically trains need to be redesigned to fit our smaller loading gauge (the largest possible size a train can be and still fit through tunnels, bridges etc)Loading gauge thread