New TPE Train Discussion

[northwichcat]

So an interesting point is trains built by CAF but maintained by Alstom at Longsight, Edge Hill and Polmadie.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The EMUs are Civity "Regional" trains, like the Northern 331s.
Presumably much the same design, but with different interiors.
No tilt, so limited to 110mph on the WCML, and CAF has yet to deliver a version for higher than 100mph.
Are they going to be any better than 350s?
Will they have Alstom electrics (would make sense with Alstom maintaining them)?
"No UK manufacturer took part in the competitive tender process" - for bog-standard express EMUs. Hmm.

 

[northwichcat]

The EMUs are Civity "Regional" trains, like the Northern 331s.
Presumably much the same design, but with different interiors.

I think it's a safe bet to presume First Class will look something like this mockup they did:

 

[ianhr]

oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh proper trains and on the part of the route i use most

YES! my reaction exactly!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh proper trains and on the part of the route i use most

oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh proper trains and on the part of the route i WORK!!!
XD
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It has also Been confirmed that 68's will tug the loco hauled rakes on Liverpool Newcastle runs

 

[47802]

Looks like I will be making alternate arrangements then, single engine trains clogging up the network when they fail and infested with Rail Enthusiasts with West York's Day Rovers

Presumably there use on the Newcastle route will only be temporary until the AT300's arrive.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Will these loco hauled sets be the ones that later extend to Edinburgh? Propper trains indeed

 

[northwichcat]

Will these loco hauled sets be the ones that later extend to Edinburgh? Propper trains indeed

I would imagine Newcastle services will get CAF sets initially but will then get the Hitachi bi-modes with the diesel powered sets switching to Middlesbrough/Scarborough. However, there would then be the option of switching the diesel locos for electric ones once Manchester-York is wired and switching the loco-hauled and bi-mode sets around again.

 

[Blytheski]

Hi will any of the new stock be used on Hull to Manchester?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The EMUs are Civity "Regional" trains, like the Northern 331s.
Presumably much the same design, but with different interiors.
No tilt, so limited to 110mph on the WCML, and CAF has yet to deliver a version for higher than 100mph.
Are they going to be any better than 350s?
Will they have Alstom electrics (would make sense with Alstom maintaining them)?
"No UK manufacturer took part in the competitive tender process" - for bog-standard express EMUs. Hmm.

They appear, from the publicity picture, to be an end-doored variant. And aren't Bombardier a bit busy and might not have been able to meet timescales?

 

[47802]

They appear, from the publicity picture, to be an end-doored variant. And aren't Bombardier a bit busy and might not have been able to meet timescales?

Well possibly, or were the manufacturers only allowed to bit on a contract for both EMU's and Loco Hauled Stock? which would clearly thin out the bidders somewhat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the issue is likely to have been the very short timescales for delivery.

 

[northwichcat]

CAF are apparently desperate for work - prior to the Northern order they were apparently facing the prospect of shutting down multiple facilities with a large number of layoffs, so were offering very cheap prices in quotes in an attempt to save the facilities. Also due to being short of work they are also able to deliver new orders faster than other manufacturers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Hi will any of the new stock be used on Hull to Manchester?

As i understand it, Hull and Leeds semi-fasts will continue to be 185s at least until wires get over the hills and (eventually) from Selby to Hull. Once the knitting is up though, who knows? Those changes will likely be during the next franchises (for Northern and TPE) with hopefully true stoppers reintroduced, albeit electric ones.

 

[northwichcat]

Hi will any of the new stock be used on Hull to Manchester?

No. Hull and Cleethorpes will retain 185s (but there will be more doubling up) and 185s will also be used on the additional Manchester-Leeds service. The 185s are getting refurbished with new seats, wi-fi and media servers allowing you to watch TV programs and films while travelling. Also the trolley service is supposed to be improved.

 

[The Ham]

What no 442's? That narrows down the speculation on what they will be used for...

 

[northwichcat]

What no 442's? That narrows down the speculation on what they will be used for...

It didn't seem to be a secret that Stagecoach and Kelios had planned to use 442s on TPE but First won the TPE bidding due to proposing new stock and moving to a premium paying franchise. First even said on numerous times 220 brand new carriages.

However, an unanswered question is how are First going to provide capacity and service improvements in December 2017 if the first new trains aren't arriving until 2018? They'll need some sort of temporary measure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or perhaps they will just accept a financial penalty for late delivery of the capacity?

 

[northwichcat]

Or perhaps they will just accept a financial penalty for late delivery of the capacity?

One thing accepting a penalty for running 3 car services instead of 5 car but if they don't have additional sets then providing additional services will be difficult.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They appear, from the publicity picture, to be an end-doored variant.

If you mean the picture on the TPE announcement today, it appears to be the same one they used for the AT300s on 1 April.
"New trains for the North and Scotland" covers all bases, really.

Given that we now have five CAF fleets (CS, Northern x2, TPE x2) you'd have expected some economies of scale on maintenance.
Alstom are doing CS and TPE (Longsight, Edge Hill, Polmadie), but Northern says it is going to use "existing depots", presumably Allerton, Newton Heath and Neville Hill.

The CAF order book is now 481 vehicles (75 for CS, 281 for Northern, 125 for TPE).
That's called putting most of your eggs into one, largely untried, basket.

 

[CosherB]

The CAF order book is now 481 vehicles (75 for CS, 281 for Northern, 125 for TPE).
That's called putting most of your eggs into one, largely untried, basket.

Alternatives that are available?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Siemens, Bombardier and Hitachi are a bit busy at the moment, CAF has capacity and they aren't totally new to the UK market as I believe some of the trams are theirs plus the 332 and 333 fleets are CAF products.

Theres a lot more manufacturing demand to come as far as the UK is concerned as the PEP fleet is nearing the end of their lives which may also impact on some of the 455's, as are the T&W fleet of metrocars.

 

[jimm]

However, an unanswered question is how are First going to provide capacity and service improvements in December 2017 if the first new trains aren't arriving until 2018? They'll need some sort of temporary measure.

Or perhaps they will just accept a financial penalty for late delivery of the capacity?

I don't know why people keep going on about this point. The announcement about the AT300 order - which was doubtless signed off by the Department for Transport at the time as it quoted a minister - said - and I seem to recall pointing this out back then as well:

The new TPE franchise will deliver a total of 44 new state of the art trains. A deal for the procurement of the remaining 25 new trains is expected to be finalised soon. The first of these trains will be delivered in Spring 2018.

The AT300s were stated in the same announcement to be arriving in 2019, which clearly indicated, to me at least, that DfT had accepted that if it wanted all these shiny new trains, December 2017 was not going to happen, and had agreed to the new target of spring 2018.

So it seems fair to assume that the capacity increase will be delayed by a few months (May 2018?) - unless the Pretendolino counts as said increased capacity - and TPE is not going to be penalised. It's not like delivery dates slipping and capacity enhancement delays are anything new, is it?
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Siemens, Bombardier and Hitachi are a bit busy at the moment, CAF has capacity and they aren't totally new to the UK market as I believe some of the trams are theirs plus the 332 and 333 fleets are CAF products.

Plus the 40-odd Northern Ireland Railways' Class 3000 and 4000 dmus.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Alternatives that are available?

I'm sure Alstom could have built some mini-Pendolinos for the WCML routes.
The CAF EMUs will be below spec for the route.

And I don't understand the logic of dumping 22x185s for a similar capacity of LHCS, which won't be capable of running above 100mph for a long time, if ever.

 

[edwin_m]

I guess the "initial" use on Liverpool-Newcastle will be temporary, as once the bi-modes arrive it doesn't make any sense to use 100mph diesel LHCS on the north TPE service that has the maximum running on 125mph and electrified track. The locos will probably also be slower than the 185s they are replacing.

 

[northwichcat]

The AT300s were stated in the same announcement to be arriving in 2019, which clearly indicated, to me at least, that DfT had accepted that if it wanted all these shiny new trains, December 2017 was not going to happen, and had agreed to the new target of spring 2018.

Yet TPE are still going on about new services starting in December 2017. Today's press release seems to confirm there's an unknown interim solution which TPE haven't announced.

 

[AndyW33]

Siemens, Bombardier and Hitachi are a bit busy at the moment, CAF has capacity and they aren't totally new to the UK market as I believe some of the trams are theirs plus the 332 and 333 fleets are CAF products.

They aren't new to the UK DMU market either as the entire fleet of Northern Ireland Railways DMUs is CAF-built.

 

[Kite159]

Sounds very interesting, but watch those cheap fares disappear when the time comes to paying a premium.

 

[po8crg]

Given that we now have five CAF fleets (CS, Northern x2, TPE x2)

Do we count the 332/333 as CAF?

 

[quantinghome]

Sounds very interesting, but watch those cheap fares disappear when the time comes to paying a premium.

Yield management will be used to maximise profits. Cheap fares are currently only available on less busy services, which will see a significant additional capacity, so I'd expect more cheap fares on those services at least initially. If demand increase substantially, then I would guess that fares will go up accordingly.