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New TPE Train Discussion

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swt_passenger

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Desiros (of all kinds, I think) make you wait 7 seconds before releasing the doors...

Only by operating custom and practice I think. Recently some SWT guards have been releasing all the doors without any delay at all, because they are not always required to get off and check the train is platformed.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Only by operating custom and practice I think. Recently some SWT guards have been releasing all the doors without any delay at all, because they are not always required to get off and check the train is platformed.

Not quite back to old Merseyrail practice, which was to release before the train had stopped :)

Same with Hamburg S-Bahn drivers on the old 471s - I used to wait for the "hiss" and throw them open nice and early (they were opened manually and closed automatically) ready to do a South East commuter style moving exit :)
 
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gimmea50anyday

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Plan A is suggested to be a fleet of push pull LHCS with class 68's and EMU's, both fro from CAF, but apparently CAF are dragging their heels over the details, so TPE are looking at a plan B which is likely to be more AT300's. Now one of the ROSCOs who deals with Hitachi are said to be very excited about this plan B option so wether this will kick CAF in to deliver or if the Hitachi option is followed up remains to be seen. We are no further forward at this time other than to sit it out and wait...
 

WatcherZero

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Will be amazing just how much market penetration Hitachi has achieved. From just the 395 they will have something like 20-30% share by the end ofthe decade.
 

NotATrainspott

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Will be amazing just how much market penetration Hitachi has achieved. From just the 395 they will have something like 20-30% share by the end ofthe decade.

And that's also without taking orders away from Siemens and Bombardier. So many trains are going to be built in future that everyone's order books will be full.
 

NotATrainspott

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Not Alstom's (for the UK).

They don't exactly have much of a UK manufacturing base left, don't they? However, if their experiment at Widnes proves successful and they decide to start manufacturing trains there again, I very much doubt that will be at the expense of Newton Heath or Litchurch Lane.

Something else that could be factored in to future production numbers is that trains built today will be more intensively used than previously, in an attempt to maximise efficiency. One driverless car is said to be able to replace several human-piloted ones, which might sound concerning if your business is in building those vehicles. However, because each vehicle will be used far more intensively, it will decay faster and require earlier replacement than a vehicle which spends most of its time sitting in a car park. The fact that the DfT is only guaranteeing Agility Trains the use of their trains for 28.5 years, and that Caledonian Rail Leasing says that the market value of 70 Class 385 trains will be £1 after 25 years, suggests that a similar effect will apply on the railway network. Even though it won't be as massive as it is for cars, it will still mean more orders than beforehand.
 
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Elecman

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They don't exactly have much of a UK manufacturing base left, don't they? However, if their experiment at Widnes proves successful and they decide to start manufacturing trains there again, I very much doubt that will be at the expense of Newton Heath or Litchurch Lane.

Something else that could be factored in to future production numbers is that trains built today will be more intensively used than previously, in an attempt to maximise efficiency. One driverless car is said to be able to replace several human-piloted ones, which might sound concerning if your business is in building those vehicles. However, because each vehicle will be used far more intensively, it will decay faster and require earlier replacement than a vehicle which spends most of its time sitting in a car park. The fact that the DfT is only guaranteeing Agility Trains the use of their trains for 28.5 years, and that Caledonian Rail Leasing says that the market value of 70 Class 385 trains will be £1 after 25 years, suggests that a similar effect will apply on the railway network. Even though it won't be as massive as it is for cars, it will still mean more orders than beforehand.

Newton Heath??
 

LNW-GW Joint

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They don't exactly have much of a UK manufacturing base left, don't they? However, if their experiment at Widnes proves successful and they decide to start manufacturing trains there again, I very much doubt that will be at the expense of Newton Heath or Litchurch Lane.

Siemens don't manufacture trains here, and Hitachi (I think you mean Newton Aycliffe?) is an assembly plant from components almost all of which are from Japan, and we are going to get Japanese and Italian production too.
Bombardier imports much of the kit for its Derby trains.
Alstom isn't much different, and they produced 106 UK Pendolino vehicles in the recent past (from Italy).

It's always been feast and famine in the UK rolling stock market.
Currently we have a feast, and it may continue for a while if usage keeps on upwards.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Siemens don't manufacture trains here, and Hitachi (I think you mean Newton Aycliffe?) is an assembly plant from components almost all of which are from Japan, and we are going to get Japanese and Italian production too.
Bombardier imports much of the kit for its Derby trains.
Alstom isn't much different, and they produced 106 UK Pendolino vehicles in the recent past (from Italy).

It's always been feast and famine in the UK rolling stock market.
Currently we have a feast, and it may continue for a while if usage keeps on upwards.

The industry delivery group has the forecasts, the only question is how big a feast is on offer, but it will need between one and two vehicles to be built every day for the next three decades to allow life expired stock to be withdrawn and demand to be met.

And Alstom build lots of traction equipment in the UK and ship it abroad, if they return to UK assembly, it'll be with lots of UK manufactured components, final assembly isn't terribly important, it's the overall contribution to the economy from each vehicle that is. Alstom does very well, Hitachi does well, Siemens does well, Bombardier slightly less well.
 

47802

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Plan A is suggested to be a fleet of push pull LHCS with class 68's and EMU's, both fro from CAF, but apparently CAF are dragging their heels over the details, so TPE are looking at a plan B which is likely to be more AT300's. Now one of the ROSCOs who deals with Hitachi are said to be very excited about this plan B option so wether this will kick CAF in to deliver or if the Hitachi option is followed up remains to be seen. We are no further forward at this time other than to sit it out and wait...

Well the LHCS always seemed a strange option to me compared to a single fleet of AT300's one can only conclude its an issue of Delivery timescales and/or LHCS will be overall significantly cheaper to obtain and operate than AT300's running mainly on Diesel for the next 7 years, but in the long term post electrification seems a much better option.

The clocks ticking you would think they need to get this sorted very soon, I personally hope they don't go for the Loco Hauled solution, last century technology in my view.
 
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gimmea50anyday

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Oh, I don't know. Spotter in me aside I think the loco hauled option has merits. Easier to switch traction provider once knitting goes up, easier to increase capacity at short notice compared to a MU, but what isn't making sense to me is plan A will lead to 4 different and incompatible fleets (185, mk5, EMU, AT300) whereas plan B will result in a more standard fleet. The 350's are woefully inadequate for TPE use on the WCML but will any new WC fleet benefit from the EPS/TASS? That would be far more beneficial regardless of builder!
 

Elecman

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One hopes that EPS is an absolute for any new stock if it has to run on the WCML with Pendos chasing them otherwise that's capacity wasted again.
 

Harbornite

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The industry delivery group has the forecasts, the only question is how big a feast is on offer, but it will need between one and two vehicles to be built every day for the next three decades to allow life expired stock to be withdrawn and demand to be met.

And Alstom build lots of traction equipment in the UK and ship it abroad, if they return to UK assembly, it'll be with lots of UK manufactured components, final assembly isn't terribly important, it's the overall contribution to the economy from each vehicle that is. Alstom does very well, Hitachi does well, Siemens does well, Bombardier slightly less well.

Do Alstom still manufacture traction equipment at Stafford, or is it just at Preston?
 

RichmondCommu

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Oh, I don't know. Spotter in me aside I think the loco hauled option has merits. Easier to switch traction provider once knitting goes up, easier to increase capacity at short notice compared to a MU,

I would have thought that the loco hauled stock would run in fixed formations so similar to the Intercity 225's. Not only that but would a TOC be prepared to lease rolling stock on a 'just in case' basis? Just saying that's all.
 
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.....Hitachi (I think you mean Newton Aycliffe?) is an assembly plant from components almost all of which are from Japan, and we are going to get Japanese and Italian production too......

For the trains being assembled at Newton Wycliffe, there's a very high percentage of components for these trains that are being manufactured and supplied from mainland Europe and here in the UK.

e.g the Class 800/801
http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/medialibrary/2015/12/08/75d9d8d3/IEPEUSupplyChain.JPG
http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/medialibrary/2015/12/08/8505fb80/IEPUKSupplyChain.JPG



 

LNW-GW Joint

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I didn't intend to start another debate on how British a train might be.
My point was that Alstom has no UK orders and it is at least as British in its production as the other majors, because of the traction package produced at Preston.
Those impressive diagrams of the class 80x European and UK content exclude the high-value items: body-shell, traction package, TMS and (I think) bogies, which are the heart of the train, all designed and produced in Japan, wherever they are assembled.
Most of the named components would come from the UK/Europe anyway to meet local needs (TPWS, pantograph etc), and are much the same as for other manufacturers.
 

gimmea50anyday

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Alsthom's traction has English Electric parentage, so how British does a component need to be? Nowadays EE motors and equipment is often refurbished by Dowding And Mills, now owned by Sulzer, a Swiss company, which has been putting engines into British locos for over 60 years
 

edwin_m

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One hopes that EPS is an absolute for any new stock if it has to run on the WCML with Pendos chasing them otherwise that's capacity wasted again.

If it's EPS that implies tilting. Unlikely either Hitachi or CAF would want to go to the complication of getting a tilting design approved for the UK on the basis of a fairly small order. A mini-Pendolino from Alstom is about the only choice.

However I'd argue that the capacity penalty of a non-tilt train on the northern WCML is actually quite small. They are slower than the Pendolinos but faster than the freight, and the time interval between the Pendolinos is long enough that a 110mph EMU sent out immediately behind one isn't going to be caught up by the next one. This is pretty much how the existing timetable works with the 350s.
 

Starmill

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Until recently the 350s were limited to 100. The plan is quite capable of taking them now, but will it be once the few additional services are introduced? The other disbenefit is the longer journey time.
 

jimm

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Until recently the 350s were limited to 100. The plan is quite capable of taking them now, but will it be once the few additional services are introduced? The other disbenefit is the longer journey time.

The 100mph timings remain in place because they have to allow for a 185 standing in for a 350 - as has been stated here several times previously. Once this issue no longer applies and there is a bigger electric fleet available, then 110mph running will presumably become the norm.

The 'longer journey time' as I have noted previously, even on a 100mph timing, is all of 10 minutes extra between Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh, even with TPE services limited to 100mph and making more station stops than a 125mph tilting Pendolino timing.
 

Elecman

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However I'd argue that the capacity penalty of a non-tilt train on the northern WCML is actually quite small. They are slower than the Pendolinos but faster than the freight, and the time interval between the Pendolinos is long enough that a 110mph EMU sent out immediately behind one isn't going to be caught up by the next one. This is pretty much how the existing timetable works with the 350s.

Yes but flighting them immediately after the 2 Pendo services north of Preston is very sub optimal from a passenger perspective with 3 trains in 20 minutes then nothing for 40 minutes
 

Mordac

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Yes but flighting them immediately after the 2 Pendo services north of Preston is very sub optimal from a passenger perspective with 3 trains in 20 minutes then nothing for 40 minutes
Not only that, but if a pendo/super voyager is delayed and the 350 is let into Wigan before them, it'll have to go behind them for a while and accumulate delay. This has happened to me several times, though only on Brum services. Can't remember if it ever happened to a direct one because I'm in Edinburgh and don't take those.
 

edwin_m

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Yes but flighting them immediately after the 2 Pendo services north of Preston is very sub optimal from a passenger perspective with 3 trains in 20 minutes then nothing for 40 minutes

That's going to be inevitable whatever the traction, because of the need to leave a large window for the freight to get as far as it can before it is caught up by the next hour's passenger trains. In fact if the TPE service could match Pendolino journey times then it would most likely be even closer to it in the timetable.
 

gimmea50anyday

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Internal communications

12 5 car intercity style EMU's (tbc)
13 5 car intercity style diesel powered trains (tbc)

Hmm.... The wording is a little ambiguous...
 

gimmea50anyday

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Rail magazine still think we are getting the pretendolino when the current lease with AGA ends in July. Staunchly denied by internal management.....
 

northwichcat

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Rail magazine still think we are getting the pretendolino when the current lease with AGA ends in July. Staunchly denied by internal management.....

Don't forget rail magazines have to send everything to the publishers a couple of weeks before the magazines get printed so some content might be out-of-date before they hit the shelves.
 
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