New drivers & incident rates

[Stigy]

As a signaller, I would be interested to know how the TOCs / FOCs emphasise performance in relation to safety.

Several trainee drivers I have spoken to recently have been terse when I have stopped them to give them instructions or caution them; one as good as said to me "could you not caution me in the station" 3 sections back from the signal where I did stop him to caution for a group of trespassing kids.

I understand that TOCs want trains to arrive on time, but I work on the basis that nobody ever ended up in court to answer to the Delays Clerk, they may have to if it goes wrong spectacularly and there is a major incident.

I get the impression that some new entrants are being trained to consider the timetable and little else.

Just my opinion of course.

We are always good safety before performance at my TOC. A genuine question, but I do wonder sometimes why a signaller doesn’t relay the requirements of a caution at a station (so as to avoid unnecessary checking down), even several sections back. Is this against the rules based on you should do it at the closest place to where the “proceed at caution” is to take place to avoid the driver forgetting? I feel I ought to know, but don’t, so go easy on me.

 

[357]

We are always good safety before performance at my TOC. A genuine question, but I do wonder sometimes why a signaller doesn’t relay the requirements of a caution at a station (so as to avoid unnecessary checking down), even several sections back. Is this against the rules based on you should do it at the closest place to where the “proceed at caution” is to take place to avoid the driver forgetting? I feel I ought to know, but don’t, so go easy on me.

The flip side of that - I got checked down and received a caution whilst stopped in a platform I wasn't scheduled to stop in a few days ago!

 

[Carl98k]

Are there more incidents with passenger drivers compared to freight? Although I’m just starting out it would make more sense for TOC incidents due to having to stop at a station one day and not the next ect.

 

[skyhigh]

Are there more incidents with passenger drivers compared to freight? Although I’m just starting out it would make more sense for TOC incidents due to having to stop at a station one day and not the next ect.

Generally the opposite in my experience.

 

[Gloster]

As a signalman from long ago, it was always the principle that most out of the ordinary cautions were given as late as possible. This would reduce the possibility of the driver forgetting, misunderstanding the location, etc. Now I realise that you have all sorts of means of communications and aids nowadays, but it is a simple way of avoiding an incident. It may cost the train a few minutes delay, which is very important to some, but it is a lot safer than the risk, albeit tiny, of a serious incident. The latter mattered a hill of a lot more on my day than saving a few minutes.

The most that might happen was telling a driver something on the lines of, “You will be stopped at signal AB123/Little Womblings’s Home Signal. Call the box straightaway.” This would avoid the situation where a train came to a stand and the driver just sat in the cab until the signalman’s frustrated swearing got so loud that he could hear it.

 

[BrummieBobby]

We are always good safety before performance at my TOC. A genuine question, but I do wonder sometimes why a signaller doesn’t relay the requirements of a caution at a station (so as to avoid unnecessary checking down), even several sections back. Is this against the rules based on you should do it at the closest place to where the “proceed at caution” is to take place to avoid the driver forgetting? I feel I ought to know, but don’t, so go easy on me.

It depends on the situation really; for something like a TSR where the speed indicator has fallen off, I would probably do that at the platform, as the driver should know about the restriction anyway. For something like trespassers or a fault / defect, I would always stop and caution at the signal that protects the section, as I would potentially need to relay several details for the driver to remember and act upon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2022 ==

As a signalman from long ago, it was always the principle that most out of the ordinary cautions were given as late as possible. This would reduce the possibility of the driver forgetting, misunderstanding the location, etc. Now I realise that you have all sorts of means of communications and aids nowadays, but it is a simple way of avoiding an incident. It may cost the train a few minutes delay, which is very important to some, but it is a lot safer than the risk, albeit tiny, of a serious incident. The latter mattered a hill of a lot more on my day than saving a few minutes.

The most that might happen was telling a driver something on the lines of, “You will be stopped at signal AB123/Little Womblings’s Home Signal. Call the box straightaway.” This would avoid the situation where a train came to a stand and the driver just sat in the cab until the signalman’s frustrated swearing got so loud that he could hear it.

Exactly the same as my reasoning; for anything that has multiple details / instructions for the driver to remember and act upon, I will stop and caution the driver at the signal protecting the section in question.

My usual method is to watch as the driver hits the last track circuit before the signal that is on and then send a "Contact Signaller" text on the GSM-R. This alerts the driver that he needs to get in touch once he is at a stand and that the signal is on for a reason other than regulating.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Can you explain what a "boil on the bag" Driver is please. At my TOC this is very derogatory. I'm sure you don't mean to offend and may have an alternative meaning at your TOC

I believe the modern vernacular is a “ping ping driver “ ie straight out of the microwave or off the street.

 

[387star]

I think it helps to always be self aware of your weaknesses. Maybe you realise you are ever so slightly speeding or whatever it is... helps to always be asking yourself what may have caused that momentary lapse of concentration.

 

[bramling]

As a signalman from long ago, it was always the principle that most out of the ordinary cautions were given as late as possible. This would reduce the possibility of the driver forgetting, misunderstanding the location, etc. Now I realise that you have all sorts of means of communications and aids nowadays, but it is a simple way of avoiding an incident. It may cost the train a few minutes delay, which is very important to some, but it is a lot safer than the risk, albeit tiny, of a serious incident. The latter mattered a hill of a lot more on my day than saving a few minutes.

The most that might happen was telling a driver something on the lines of, “You will be stopped at signal AB123/Little Womblings’s Home Signal. Call the box straightaway.” This would avoid the situation where a train came to a stand and the driver just sat in the cab until the signalman’s frustrated swearing got so loud that he could hear it.

The other thing is signallers, especially in the larger boxes, simply don’t have time to be focussing on choosing the optimal moment to call a driver. They like to give an instruction then cross it off as having been given out. Very easy to get tangled up trying to get too involved in finer details. It’s always easy to forget that the driver is in a controlled environment with only their own train to worry about, the signaller can have numerous incoming communications all coming in at random, so very easy to get thrown of course if things aren’t kept simple.

 

[ComUtoR]

It depends on the situation really; for something like a TSR where the speed indicator has fallen off, I would probably do that at the platform, as the driver should know about the restriction anyway.

Why not use a Berth Triggered Message ?

 

[lineclear]

Why not use a Berth Triggered Message ?

I can think of three reasons:

• They are only allowed for certain situations
• They are a lot of work to set up
• Receiving 'acknowledged' is hardly a guarantee of a clear understanding!

 

[ComUtoR]

I can think of three reasons:

• They are only allowed for certain situations

Yes, I'm aware.

• They are a lot of work to set up

Which I find a poor excuse. We have new technology and a system in place that allows for greater productivity and a smother running railway for all. Berth messages are very helpful from a Driver point of view and is part of the railways embrace of technology. Its clear that many are afraid to use it or just don't bother because its 'a lot of work' Set it up once, caution many trains. or stop and caution every train through the section. :/

• Receiving 'acknowledged' is hardly a guarantee of a clear understanding!

Receiving 'Acknowledged' IS a guarantee of understanding. We hit the 'ST' button because we understand the message. If you have that, then its been accepted and understood.

It's the same with general broadcasts. They are a very underused tool that is often a vital tool in good communication.

 

[43066]

I can think of three reasons:

• They are only allowed for certain situations
• They are a lot of work to set up
• Receiving 'acknowledged' is hardly a guarantee of a clear understanding!

When do you receive “acknowledged”?

EDIT: speaking as a driver, I’ve literally never received that after a few years and several emergency calls that I have responded to by hitting “ST”.

 

[BrummieBobby]

Why not use a Berth Triggered Message ?

Personal judgement as to what is most appropriate at the time; I have used a berth trigged broadcast in the past, as I say it all depends on the situation.

With regards to setting up a berth trigged message, they are really no effort to set up.

 

[niggill617@gma]

It's the ex military who *can* be extremely objectionable. My place has more than a few in various roles (not driver, to be fair) who have caused a lot of problems with their attitudes and behaviours, and unfortunately they regularly get into conflict situations because they are good at learning lists, but not so good at *understanding* what they are doing, which gets them into problems. Top management seems to like them because they get through assessments, but they then become an utter nightmare to manage or work with at local level. And when I say nightmare, this is no understatement.

Two sides to every story. What role are these hell raisers? Please elaborate. This thread is about new drivers to be fair.

 

[skyhigh]

When do you receive “acknowledged”?

EDIT: speaking as a driver, I’ve literally never received that after a few years and several emergency calls that I have responded to by hitting “ST”.

I think that's from a signaller perspective (when you acknowledge the message by pressing ST)

 

[td97]

Believe it or not, the sectional appendix in my area completely ignores the presence of a station and a tunnel next to it. The station opened in 2017, but the tunnel has been there since the line opened in, erm, 1841.

I've checked the latest PDFs on the Network Rail website, a brand new sectional appendix and it's not on any of them. I've raised it with Network Rail and not heard anything back. I basically don't trust anything in that document.

If you use the general public Network Rail enquires contact details your enquiry will probably not have been re-routed correctly.
It would be best to use a work email address and send your issue to
planningpublications@networkrail.co.uk
Close call (or equivalent) it on your internal incident reporting system too

 

[ComUtoR]

It would be best to use a work email address and send your issue to
planningpublications@networkrail.co.uk
Close call (or equivalent) it on your internal incident reporting system too

I raised a concern over a crossing that was missed. It had been in every issue for many years and then suddenly got removed. I was.told by the email team you have posted, that they didn't have to include crossings in the table a diagrams.

 

[357]

I raised a concern over a crossing that was missed. It had been in every issue for many years and then suddenly got removed. I was.told by the email team you have posted, that they didn't have to include crossings in the table a diagrams.

Wow

Not surprised, but still, wow.

On my routes we have differences between the SA and our own route guide with missing and extra crossings and are told the SA overrides everything and should be treated as the "bible".

 

[ComUtoR]

I never delete anything...



From my personal email :

Regarding [the crossing] at [the station]: Generally, there is no requirement to show footpath crossings on a Table A.

At one time there was a local instruction for [the station] (in the Sectional Appendix) that required down stopping services to whistle before starting away owing to the close proximity of [the crossing] crossing.

This instruction was removed after the residents complained about the noise.

It’s possible that the identification of the crossing was removed from the Table A at that time.

Its on a route where there are well used footpath crossings. A few are named, others are just noted as 'footpath crossing' In that same email he highlighted a speed where on one diagram it had the speed at 20mph and on another diagram, the speed doesn't exist.

Welcome to the Railway, have a nice day

 

[skyhigh]

It would be best to use a work email address and send your issue to
planningpublications@networkrail.co.uk

That's the email I used, and the only thing I heard back was "Thanks, we'll look into it". That was over a year ago, they never corrected it.