New drivers & incident rates

[ComUtoR]

That's my route knowledge....

If you have that level of detail, that's VERY impressive. Humans tend to filter out useless information and will also create information that isn't there to fill in the blanks. 'Cognitive maps' generally aren't detailed. Part of the reasons why new Drivers have incidents is because gaps exist and/or they just don't have the level of detail needed yet. There are routes I've been driving for years and I know every lump and bump in the track but there are still some technical details that I filter out. Bridge numbers are one of them. The railway also has a major problem with accurate information. The Sectional Appendix for example is an absolute vile document. It isn't something I would like to learn a route from that for sure.

And this wasn't in any way meant as a criticism

I never read it that way. I hope my reply was well received.

Picking a route you drive on a regular basis is a good way to describe route knowledge and how it works. Do you remember the first time you drove it ? Nowadays we just punch the destination into the SatNav; which is something that often gets mentioned for Drivers route knowledge.......

 

[TheEdge]

The railway also has a major problem with accurate information. The Sectional Appendix for example is an absolute vile document. It isn't something I would like to learn a route from that for sure.

This is a massive issue.

Everything is out of date and no one really seems to be able to point at an up to date version of maps. In my area Red Green crossings are popping up everywhere, but no one seems to be able to find a definitive list of which are being done. Normally the answer is "they are in the WON". Which one and when means going back to find it and then find a crossing with a new name you never used to know because it was a stile in the fence with nothing to make it clear.

It feels like Network Rail do stuff and don't see any need to tell anyone else

 

[LCC106]

Some TOCs don’t even issue new starters with a Sectional Appendix these days. It doesn’t particularly support the professional knowledge development of drivers.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If you have that level of detail, that's VERY impressive. Humans tend to filter out useless information and will also create information that isn't there to fill in the blanks. 'Cognitive maps' generally aren't detailed. Part of the reasons why new Drivers have incidents is because gaps exist and/or they just don't have the level of detail needed yet. There are routes I've been driving for years and I know every lump and bump in the track but there are still some technical details that I filter out. Bridge numbers are one of them. The railway also has a major problem with accurate information. The Sectional Appendix for example is an absolute vile document. It isn't something I would like to learn a route from that for sure.

I have to know intricate anatomy and physiology within my medical/technical area of expertise. But yes, I'm good at not remembering information that isn't relevant

I never read it that way. I hope my reply was well received.

Picking a route you drive on a regular basis is a good way to describe route knowledge and how it works. Do you remember the first time you drove it ? Nowadays we just punch the destination into the SatNav; which is something that often gets mentioned for Drivers route knowledge.......

It was very well received. When I was studying, I used to have weird (to me) ways of remembering stuff, including recording and playing back before sleep....

 

[skyhigh]

The Sectional Appendix for example is an absolute vile document. It isn't something I would like to learn a route from that for sure.

This is a massive issue.

Everything is out of date and no one really seems to be able to point at an up to date version of maps.

Believe it or not, the sectional appendix in my area completely ignores the presence of a station and a tunnel next to it. The station opened in 2017, but the tunnel has been there since the line opened in, erm, 1841.

I've checked the latest PDFs on the Network Rail website, a brand new sectional appendix and it's not on any of them. I've raised it with Network Rail and not heard anything back. I basically don't trust anything in that document.

 

[the sniper]

On my old route in the car - yes. I could name every road that branched off (including some of the roads they led to in case of diversions); the road speed was nearly always in an urban area; exactly the number of traffic lights and roughly how long they would stay on red/green (as each one was different according to the junction); all the bus lanes, the police stations, McDonalds, petrol stations, fire stations, schools and parking zones.

Yes, in a car, bridge weights/heights not really applicable to me but knowing the diversions during bridge strikes by overheight lorries helped...

Now, when I do drive, I drive a different route which includes telegraph poles, cows in a field, unusual trees, cambers in the road (to avoid), where the speed cameras are on the motorway, and even where the sun will be at the time of day I am driving.

You should replace using your foot pedals with engine braking, sticking to as higher gears as possible, you can decide on one of those telegraph poles to start slowing for a set of traffic lights half a mile down an undulating curvy road, for the full train driver experience. No accelerating, that's bad form. Then do it in fog. Then you might know how well you know it!

Some TOCs don’t even issue new starters with a Sectional Appendix these days. It doesn’t particularly support the professional knowledge development of drivers.

Better off without it if they're issued with route maps instead.

 

[1_on]

I know at GN due to instructor shortage at trainee depots, there are a lot of trainees doing outer work on routes and traction they'll never sign once they qualify just to get their hours up, only to be transferred to an inner instructor towards the end of their hours to then get their core route and traction completed on minimum hours and trips.

It really isn't fair on trainees to set them up like this. The counter argument, is it isn't fair to leave them front ending waiting for a instructor.

I believe some trainees that are going to be inner drivers are getting their hours up by driving Cambridge to Brighton

 

[PupCuff]

You should replace using your foot pedals with engine braking, sticking to as higher gears as possible, you can decide on one of those telegraph poles to start slowing for a set of traffic lights half a mile down an undulating curvy road, for the full train driver experience. No accelerating, that's bad form. Then do it in fog. Then you might know how well you know it!

There's very much a fair argument to say - especially in these times of high fuel prices and eco awareness - the techniques we teach train drivers are very useful to motorists too: the road routes I regularly drive, I know exactly where I can coast such that the traffic light sequence will change to green as I approach; always allowing some breathing time between power and braking; especially allowing for natural retardation on a rising gradient; anticipating the locations where you're likely to need to drive more cautiously owing to a complex road layout/crossing points/cyclists etc - as well as the confidence and assertiveness to drive in a manner appropriate to the situation and not cause chaos like my mother pulling onto a motorway ("its fifty in the inside line, sixty in the middle lane, and seventy on the outside!")

 

[niggill617@gma]

Is the sec

Some TOCs don’t even issue new starters with a Sectional Appendix these days. It doesn’t particularly support the professional knowledge development of drivers.

Is the Sectional Appendix not available via tablet download, PDF I believe? I assume all TOCs issue tablets ?

 

[the sniper]

There's very much a fair argument to say - especially in these times of high fuel prices and eco awareness - the techniques we teach train drivers are very useful to motorists too: the road routes I regularly drive, I know exactly where I can coast such that the traffic light sequence will change to green as I approach; always allowing some breathing time between power and braking; especially allowing for natural retardation on a rising gradient; anticipating the locations where you're likely to need to drive more cautiously owing to a complex road layout/crossing points/cyclists etc - as well as the confidence and assertiveness to drive in a manner appropriate to the situation and not cause chaos like my mother pulling onto a motorway ("its fifty in the inside line, sixty in the middle lane, and seventy on the outside!")

I agree, my brake pads/discs last forever. Though I think you're more sensible than me, as you haven't mentioned that you'll be getting up to the 'line' speed ASAP and trying to stick to it wherever possible if unrestricted.

 

[choochoochoo]

I believe some trainees that are going to be inner drivers are getting their hours up by driving Cambridge to Brighton

It’s a terrible situation to put a trainee in.

There's very much a fair argument to say - especially in these times of high fuel prices and eco awareness - the techniques we teach train drivers are very useful to motorists too: the road routes I regularly drive, I know exactly where I can coast such that the traffic light sequence will change to green as I approach; always allowing some breathing time between power and braking; especially allowing for natural retardation on a rising gradient; anticipating the locations where you're likely to need to drive more cautiously owing to a complex road layout/crossing points/cyclists etc - as well as the confidence and assertiveness to drive in a manner appropriate to the situation and not cause chaos like my mother pulling onto a motorway ("its fifty in the inside line, sixty in the middle lane, and seventy on the outside!")

That anticipation and situational awareness you develop as a train driver is really useful.

I find it particularly satisfying meeting that motorist who aggressively overtook me at the next set of lights.

 

[43066]

Moderator: Posts #1-7 were originally in this thread.

One observation i will reluctantly make. At Plymouth, we have had as many SPADs this year as in the previous 10. And all this year coming from new drivers.
There are a hell of a lot of decent drivers out there who have recently gone through the process, but I do wonder if the newer tests are not as fit for purpose as the old ones?

Possibly trained up during Covid so during a period of thinner timetables, fewer restrictive aspects? Similar has happened where I am. We also have an issue with street to seat drivers going straight onto high speed routes getting used to running on greens, then banjaxing TPWS grids left right and centre when they have to put the brake in for speeds, or run on restrictive aspects following Thameslinks into London…

Not necessarily their fault and possibly down to poor training (some of our most experienced instructors refuse to work with street to seat trainees and will only train experienced drivers) but it’s surprising for those of us who started on far more intensive work. We’d all rather hammer along at 125 on greens, but having the ability to snap back into “metro mode” when you encounter restrictive aspects really helps keep your license clean… Goes to show that neither type of work is necessarily “easier” than the other.

You should replace using your foot pedals with engine braking, sticking to as higher gears as possible, you can decide on one of those telegraph poles to start slowing for a set of traffic lights half a mile down an undulating curvy road, for the full train driver experience. No accelerating, that's bad form. Then do it in fog. Then you might know how well you know it!

Very well put. I might even claim that as my own next time someone asks about my job .

 

[16.19]

We have had a lot of incidents recently, mostly TPWS related, some spads.

What I try and teach my trainee is that learning and sticking with the basics will take you far; mainly taking positive actions (even before you get to your train) and understanding that a driver with 30 years experience can (and do) make the same mistakes a driver with 12 months experience can if they don’t apply the basic fundamentals of driving.

 

[the sniper]

Possibly trained up during Covid so during a period of thinner timetables, fewer restrictive aspects?

I think this is certainly a possibility, until fairly recently it has been a very different railway from the one of old, in places. There are places where you'd have rarely seen a green where you now only see a green, until you don't. I don't think some new externals can even imagine what it was like before. Though I think some more experienced drivers may have got too comfortable with the new normal too.

Very well put. I might even claim that as my own next time someone asks about my job .

I'll draw up a licensing agreement and you can send over my fee.

 

[SRH]

I am currenty an active working D.i. at a metro TOC.

I think this site is generally wonderful for information.

But this is a poor thread based mostly on individual opinion.

Im not sure how this helps anyone. All grades

 

[43066]

We have had a lot of incidents recently, mostly TPWS related, some spads.

What I try and teach my trainee is that learning and sticking with the basics will take you far; mainly taking positive actions (even before you get to your train) and understanding that a driver with 30 years experience can (and do) make the same mistakes a driver with 12 months experience can if they don’t apply the basic fundamentals of driving.

Absolutely.

I still drive as I was taught, with some refinements, still commentary drive etc.

I still enjoy it once the door is closed and I’m in the zone. The frustrations with the job come largely from within. I might look to become an instructor. Frankly I’m frustrated with the industry and the nonsense it presents.

I think this is certainly a possibility, until fairly recently it has been a very different railway from the one of old, in places. There are places where you'd have rarely seen a green where you now only see a green, until you don't. I don't think some new externals can even imagine what it was like before. Though I think some more experienced drivers may have got too comfortable with the new normal too.

Agreed.

 

[SRH]

There is no criticism of any individual in 1 word of what i said.

The thread itself i do not agree with. For the new/future starters in particular.

There are far too many reasons why these things are happening industry wide which change depending on where or who you work for.

Its an industry wide problem and not really one that i think should be discussed here.

I stand by my word. Not 1 of the better threads we have had.

 

[the sniper]

Maybe that bloke on the RED videos will give us a clue what is going on at some point, he seems to know what's up with most stuff.

 

[43066]

The thread itself i do not agree with. For the new/future starters in particular.

The thread is entitled “New drivers & incident rates”. Specifically, which part of that do you object to? Do you disagree with the statement that new drivers generally have higher incident rates?

Maybe that bloke on the RED videos will give us a clue what is going on at some point, he seems to know what's up with most stuff.

Is that the bloke that told us all about how reliable class 180s were a few years back? That aged really well.

 

[SRH]

I can only speak for where i work. Incidents are up in general. In my specific location that is more down to the sheer volume of the day to day work. Not a new or experienced thing.

This contributing factor would/could be something completely different in diff location/company/depot..

 

[ComUtoR]

Not a new or experienced thing.

This contributing factor would/could be something completely different in diff location/company/depot..

Spend some time on the RSS website. Plenty of research there about incidents and the patterns that emerge

 

[Twotwo]

I believe some trainees that are going to be inner drivers are getting their hours up by driving Cambridge to Brighton

I've been told the hours restart once we get an inner di so who knows.

 

[niggill617@gma]

I still enjoy it once the door is closed and I’m in the zone. The frustrations with the job come largely from within. I might look to become an instructor. Frankly I’m frustrated with the industry and the nonsense it presents.

Being in the zone inter alia, has kept you incident free, keep up the good work. I hope you do become an instructor and replace those who refuse to teach direct entry, "off the street". Direct entry are often former professionals I suspect like yourself or actual time served proper skilled tradespersons.

It would be interesting to know which cohort of new drivers have most incidents: direct entry unskilled, direct entry skilled/professional or internal?

One thing is for sure the vast majority of incidents that merit RAIB reports are experienced drivers.

 

[43066]

It would be interesting to know which cohort of new drivers have most incidents: direct entry unskilled, direct entry skilled/professional or internal?

That’s a good question. At my first TOC the training school staff expressed a preference for “off the street” trainees, with no prior railway experience, that they could mould into shape. Being an enthusiast was also low on their list of preferred qualities!

 

[Horizon22]

There is no criticism of any individual in 1 word of what i said.

The thread itself i do not agree with. For the new/future starters in particular.

There are far too many reasons why these things are happening industry wide which change depending on where or who you work for.

Its an industry wide problem and not really one that i think should be discussed here.

I stand by my word. Not 1 of the better threads we have had.

I can only speak for where i work. Incidents are up in general. In my specific location that is more down to the sheer volume of the day to day work. Not a new or experienced thing.

This contributing factor would/could be something completely different in diff location/company/depot..

What is your issue with the premise of the thread? It is a discussion about new drivers and whether a trend has developed recently. Has the sheer volume of day to day work increased? Do you even think incident rates have increased? (indeed the thread title makes no comment either way, the discussion has). If you want to contribute with your own valued opinion then please do so, but just sniping from the sidelines is not helpful. These forums talk about "industry wide problems" all the time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2022 ==

 

[choochoochoo]

I've been told the hours restart once we get an inner di so who knows.

That seems like an unusual step for management. Whilst it's a good thing in terms of trainee training, it does slow your training down.

Given that someone previously said that post-covid trainees aren't automatically put on to qualified salary after a set time anymore is that going to change now you'll be doing excess hours ?

Whlist 400 odd hours of training is a good thing, it seems like a waste of resources.

Could one possible solution be that management let DIs sign all routes and traction thus enabling outer DIs to train on inner routes/traction. (I believe there was talk of a DI link at one stage.)

They'd need to limit their rest day work to the DIs depot specific routes/traction otherwise they'd then be at an advantage over normal drivers.

 

[357]

That’s a good question. At my first TOC the training school staff expressed a preference for “off the street” trainees, with no prior railway experience, that they could mould into shape. Being an enthusiast was also low on their list of preferred qualities!

My TOC like to employ people from other TOCs into grades that could be seen as a promotion, such as dispatcher to shunter, however once the training starts there is a clear and very visible atmosphere with some trainers, whilst others enjoy the chance to learn more about how other TOCs work. I'd say the latter are the small minority, unfortunately.

Edit: I have no idea why the text of this post is so big

 

[RyanC87]

What usually happens with incidents. If new mainly.

Surely all jobs across all sectors have incidents. Granted when driving a train it can have more severe consequences.

However I'm currently a police officer. We have loads of incidents with new staff as you are always learning.

Depending on how severe and how much of it was due to laziness or ignoring issues depends on what happens.

For a newly qualified train driver that makes a mistake, but hasn't crashed a train, or flown through a station (I'm not driving yet so I don't know what incidents do happen) what is the usual way a TOC deals with it. Is it a case you're stripped of you job, or do they implement a development plan

 

[baz962]

What usually happens with incidents. If new mainly.

Surely all jobs across all sectors have incidents. Granted when driving a train it can have more severe consequences.

However I'm currently a police officer. We have loads of incidents with new staff as you are always learning.

Depending on how severe and how much of it was due to laziness or ignoring issues depends on what happens.

For a newly qualified train driver that makes a mistake, but hasn't crashed a train, or flown through a station (I'm not driving yet so I don't know what incidents do happen) what is the usual way a TOC deals with it. Is it a case you're stripped of you job, or do they implement a development plan

Would always depend on the nature of the incident. Usually a development plan.

 

[357]

Normally always a development plan.

However, this depends on the incident, and your history.

Some drivers in extreme cases have been pushed to return to depot driving or station duties.

If your incident has violations - such as not reporting it, distraction from mobile phone, then your job is potentially and very likely on the line.