New drivers & incident rates

[irish_rail]

Moderator: Posts #1-7 were originally in this thread.

One observation i will reluctantly make. At Plymouth, we have had as many SPADs this year as in the previous 10. And all this year coming from new drivers.
There are a hell of a lot of decent drivers out there who have recently gone through the process, but I do wonder if the newer tests are not as fit for purpose as the old ones?

 

[CardiffDan]

One observation i will reluctantly make. At Plymouth, we have had as many SPADs this year as in the previous 10. And all this year coming from new drivers.
There are a hell of a lot of decent drivers out there who have recently gone through the process, but I do wonder if the newer tests are not as fit for purpose as the old ones?

What happens when that happens. Assuming it is driver error with no other reason for it.

 

[Horizon22]

What happens when that happens. Assuming it is driver error with no other reason for it.

There's always underlying reasons in investigations - "driver error" is not really a cause, its about why there was an error.

 

[357]

There's always underlying reasons in investigations - "driver error" is not really a cause, its about why there was an error.

There is an issue however that management take so long to investigate things with drivers unable to work whilst this is happening, that with the number of incidents happening, this in itself leads to a driver shortage at some depots.

 

[ComUtoR]

There is an issue however that management take so long to investigate things with drivers unable to work whilst this is happening,

How long is "too long" ? Have you ever investigated an incident ?

that with the number of incidents happening, this in itself leads to a driver shortage at some depots.

Well played. Your newsletter; may I have a subscription please.

 

[357]

How long is "too long" ? Have you ever investigated an incident ?




Well played. Your newsletter; may I have a subscription please.

I didn't say too long, I said so long.

No idea what you mean by the second part of your post.

My post was simply my own observations. The reality has been recently that investigations take a long time and this has resulted in a further shortage of drivers.

 

[the sniper]

One observation i will reluctantly make. At Plymouth, we have had as many SPADs this year as in the previous 10. And all this year coming from new drivers.
There are a hell of a lot of decent drivers out there who have recently gone through the process, but I do wonder if the newer tests are not as fit for purpose as the old ones?

Not the only place where SPADs are up, quite substantially. Some have pondered whether the Covid delayed/elongated training has played a part, though I'm not sure how. Minds long kept idle struggling to adapt to new demands, who knows...?

 

[choochoochoo]

I know at GN due to instructor shortage at trainee depots, there are a lot of trainees doing outer work on routes and traction they'll never sign once they qualify just to get their hours up, only to be transferred to an inner instructor towards the end of their hours to then get their core route and traction completed on minimum hours and trips.

It really isn't fair on trainees to set them up like this. The counter argument, is it isn't fair to leave them front ending waiting for a instructor.

 

[PupCuff]

I didn't say too long, I said so long.

No idea what you mean by the second part of your post.

My post was simply my own observations. The reality has been recently that investigations take a long time and this has resulted in a further shortage of drivers.

The reality of it is there's insufficient resource within management grades too. Nobody wants safety investigations to drag on and on, really implementing safety improvements you want to strike while the iron's hot. Except for the most serious incidents, rail safety investigations are typically assigned to frontline managers, who also have to manage/recruit/assess/etc their team, look after their depot/station, be on-call, etc etc.

The simplest way to avoid drivers being stood down for weeks and weeks whilst safety investigations are concluded is to return them post incident once additional support and controls have been agreed. I'm generally not a fan of staff being stood down pending completion of a safety investigation as realistically even if the investigation finds a competence issue that wasn't known about in the immediate aftermath of the incident the staff member isn't suddenly going to become any more competent being out of the workplace rather than being given additional support, eg sessions with an instructor etc. There's exceptional cases where it may be undesirable to return them, but in those cases either the staff member is unlikely to return driving anyway or you just circle the incident in a big red marker pen to remind you to try and have that one jump the queue so they can get back to work (which of course then adds delay into the rest!)

 

[387star]

There is a huge difference between different depots in terms of risk. At my depot the new drivers are doing well but the route card is a walk in the park compared with what I was used to. It's been known for senior drivers to have incidents so it's not a new thing. Southeastern where the above DI is based is certainly going to see more incidents due to a high intensity workload.

I have said before the driver assessments are a doddle these days so long as you have the aptitude for them. The training is anything but...

 

[D Rivers]

Moderator: Posts #1-7 were originally in this thread.

One observation i will reluctantly make. At Plymouth, we have had as many SPADs this year as in the previous 10. And all this year coming from new drivers.
There are a hell of a lot of decent drivers out there who have recently gone through the process, but I do wonder if the newer tests are not as fit for purpose as the old ones?

Not just on heavy rail. I work on light rail and it’s rife there too! Wonder what’s going wrong??

 

[357]

The reality of it is there's insufficient resource within management grades too. Nobody wants safety investigations to drag on and on, really implementing safety improvements you want to strike while the iron's hot. Except for the most serious incidents, rail safety investigations are typically assigned to frontline managers, who also have to manage/recruit/assess/etc their team, look after their depot/station, be on-call, etc etc.

The simplest way to avoid drivers being stood down for weeks and weeks whilst safety investigations are concluded is to return them post incident once additional support and controls have been agreed. I'm generally not a fan of staff being stood down pending completion of a safety investigation as realistically even if the investigation finds a competence issue that wasn't known about in the immediate aftermath of the incident the staff member isn't suddenly going to become any more competent being out of the workplace rather than being given additional support, eg sessions with an instructor etc. There's exceptional cases where it may be undesirable to return them, but in those cases either the staff member is unlikely to return driving anyway or you just circle the incident in a big red marker pen to remind you to try and have that one jump the queue so they can get back to work (which of course then adds delay into the rest!)

Is there a reason they can't go front ending while stood down?

 

[skyhigh]

Moderator: Posts #1-7 were originally in this thread.

One observation i will reluctantly make. At Plymouth, we have had as many SPADs this year as in the previous 10. And all this year coming from new drivers.
There are a hell of a lot of decent drivers out there who have recently gone through the process, but I do wonder if the newer tests are not as fit for purpose as the old ones?

Interesting to hear that. At our TOC there's been no increase in SPADs, but there has been a bit of an uptick in TPWS activations and fail to calls. They seem to be equally split between new and experienced drivers though.

 

[niggill617@gma]

Interesting to hear that. At our TOC there's been no increase in SPADs, but there has been a bit of an uptick in TPWS activations and fail to calls. They seem to be equally split between new and experienced drivers though.

Competence managers and instructors also have incidents, during supervisory assessments.

 

[PupCuff]

Is there a reason they can't go front ending while stood down?

It will depend on each train operator's procedures. It would be uncommon to do this in my experience.

Ultimately all the law requires is that where there is a cause to doubt a safety critical worker's competence (which depending on the circumstances an incident could amount to) that the worker be prevented from carrying out safety critical work until they can be assessed. As front ending isn't safety critical work, I can't see any absolute prohibition to doing this, however each company will set their own requirements for managing these cases and rail industry standards offer a good foundation to base these requirements on.

 

[357]

It will depend on each train operator's procedures. It would be uncommon to do this in my experience.

Ultimately all the law requires is that where there is a cause to doubt a safety critical worker's competence (which depending on the circumstances an incident could amount to) that the worker be prevented from carrying out safety critical work until they can be assessed. As front ending isn't safety critical work, I can't see any absolute prohibition to doing this, however each company will set their own requirements for managing these cases and rail industry standards offer a good foundation to base these requirements on.

Thanks for the info, it was just a thought that sometimes after an incident it might be useful for a driver to see how other people work or discuss where they might have gone wrong with an instructor instead of sitting on the naughty step for weeks on end

 

[Towers]

I'm aware of one TOC who have noted a particular increase in drivers experiencing incidents during degraded working, with a conclusion that this was likely to be due to gaps in the relevant required knowledge.

I wonder, how do our experienced driver contributors feel about what some might call the 'micro management' of driving technique taught on today's railway? Is there, perhaps, a risk that teaching drivers to drive in an almost robotic style reduces their ability to use their own natural judgement and potentially contributes to the problem? An interesting thought that I've heard repeated often.

 

[irish_rail]

I'm aware of one TOC who have noted a particular increase in drivers experiencing incidents during degraded working, with a conclusion that this was likely to be due to gaps in the relevant required knowledge.

I wonder, how do our experienced driver contributors feel about what some might call the 'micro management' of driving technique taught on today's railway? Is there, perhaps, a risk that teaching drivers to drive in an almost robotic style reduces their ability to use their own natural judgement and potentially contributes to the problem? An interesting thought that I've heard repeated often.

I would agree with this . I think its unhelpful the way newbies are trained up to be afraid of everything and as you say the complete micro management of the style they drive to the nth degree. Drivers should be able to develop their own style without being told, you must use RTC or hit platforms at 20mph max, or whatever.

I also can't help but feel there are two types of drivers on the railway. Those who are natural drivers and those that do the job , but for whom it doesn't come naturally and everything is done as if learnt directly from a training text book.

In my experience the natural drivers tend to have better safety records, but of course this is purely anecdotal and only based on my own observations.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I expect this is TOC specific but for how long are new drivers supervised before they are fully passed as competent to drive on their own?

I would have thought with sufficient route knowledge (under all conditions day and night), new drivers "should" know the route and signal sighting like the back of their hand..

I remember not so long ago, travelling behind the cab of a 465, hearing the driver speaking out aloud every signal number and its aspect. He was the only one in the cab. I expect he was speaking into a recording device or it was his way of helping to remember

 

[TheEdge]

I'm aware of one TOC who have noted a particular increase in drivers experiencing incidents during degraded working, with a conclusion that this was likely to be due to gaps in the relevant required knowledge.

The problem with degraded working is you just don't see it, and when you do see it it tends to come out of nowhere and you have to do it at short notice. Since I passed out in 2018 I've done degraded working once, and that was a very basic bit of pilotman working. For a lot of us we may see it on the sim or in a classroom and then not do it for years, if ever.

I wonder, how do our experienced driver contributors feel about what some might call the 'micro management' of driving technique taught on today's railway? Is there, perhaps, a risk that teaching drivers to drive in an almost robotic style reduces their ability to use their own natural judgement and potentially contributes to the problem? An interesting thought that I've heard repeated often.

I'd agree, you can get given a "this is how to drive" instructions and get marked against it and if it doesn't mesh with your brain it can cause problems.

I expect this is TOC specific but for how long are new drivers supervised before they are fully passed as competent to drive on their own?

I was 280 hours of actual driving, followed by practical assessment. My TOC is clear that is 280 hours actually driving, not at work, so being spare/PNB/pass or so on doesn't count.

I would have thought with sufficient route knowledge (under all conditions day and night), new drivers "should" know the route and signal sighting like the back of their hand...

Yes and no. A new driver will know the route but won't know it inside out. And they'll also know the route as their instructor taught it. Once you get out you start adapting you braking points and style of driving to you.

I remember not so long ago, travelling behind the cab of a 465, hearing the driver speaking out aloud every signal number and its aspect. He was the only one in the cab. I expect he was speaking into a recording device or it was his way of helping to remember

Takes all sorts, I like to talk to the signals and the train. Keeps my brain from wandering.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Takes all sorts, I like to talk to the signals and the train. Keeps my brain from wandering.

Maybe this was you ??

 

[niggill617@gma]

Competence managers and instructors also have incidents, during supervisory assessments.

Additionally can anyone find an incident from any RAIB published report that, was a new driver? Plenty of near disaster reports involving very experienced drivers. I suppose when an experienced driver has an incident they do it properly!

 

[Nflkrail]

Whilst you do train with an instructor for a number of hours, nothing is the same as being on your own, using your own judgement, rules training and simply common sense at times to conduct yourself and your train safely.

In my 3yrs of being passed out on my own I've experienced all sorts of things and had to deal with them. Obviously you're trained in this but they don't always pan out as 'simple'.

It's incredibly easy to get out of course bits wrong. There are also wider pressures from control and similar to just 'go and do that'. Confidence and experience take time to acquire and you need to keep yourself safe in the meantime.

I have so far kept my record incident free. But all drivers would have been close at some point. It's a multi faceted job that even the slightest lapse of concentration can catch you out. Experience does count for a lot but that in itself can also catch you out.

A large uptick in incidents, particularly with new drivers, must point to a training issue. That said, there will always be new drivers that will not be destined to be drivers forever...

 

[bramling]

I would agree with this . I think its unhelpful the way newbies are trained up to be afraid of everything and as you say the complete micro management of the style they drive to the nth degree. Drivers should be able to develop their own style without being told, you must use RTC or hit platforms at 20mph max, or whatever.

I also can't help but feel there are two types of drivers on the railway. Those who are natural drivers and those that do the job , but for whom it doesn't come naturally and everything is done as if learnt directly from a training text book.

In my experience the natural drivers tend to have better safety records, but of course this is purely anecdotal and only based on my own observations.

Very much agree with the point about natural drivers. For some everything seems to come naturally and be taken in stride. They’re the type who tend to have a relaxed attitude, and in most cases have good attendance / lateness records too.

I’ve never felt it works well to train people up to be afraid of everything. Such people also make poor instructors, as trainees never get to test the boundaries, and therefore learn the limit of their ability.

 

[ComUtoR]

I expect this is TOC specific but for how long are new drivers supervised before they are fully passed as competent to drive on their own?

225 minimum at my TOC. That doesn't include route learning.

I would have thought with sufficient route knowledge (under all conditions day and night), new drivers "should" know the route and signal sighting like the back of their hand..

Pick any regular journey you do in the car. Can you name : All road names, road speeds and where they change, the number of traffic lights and which ones have filter lanes, all of the alternative routes, local police stations, fire stations, schools, parking zones, weight restrictions over any bridges, all bridge heights and bridge numbers...... Or is it a case of you know where your going in general but could pull up the technical bits when you needed them ?

I remember not so long ago, travelling behind the cab of a 465, hearing the driver speaking out aloud every signal number and its aspect.

He was using "Commentary Driving"

He was the only one in the cab. I expect he was speaking into a recording device

Which would not be allowed so I highly doubt this would be the case.

or it was his way of helping to remember

It would help reinforce his route knowledge and mitigate against risk.

 

[LowLevel]

Very much agree with the point about natural drivers. For some everything seems to come naturally and be taken in stride. They’re the type who tend to have a relaxed attitude, and in most cases have good attendance / lateness records too.

I’ve never felt it works well to train people up to be afraid of everything. Such people also make poor instructors, as trainees never get to test the boundaries, and therefore learn the limit of their ability.

It's interesting seeing different driver instructors work. I've known most of them a long time and initially their styles rub off on their trainees but inevitably that tends to wear off to a greater or lesser degree.

Some also test their trainees more than others, particularly things like reactions. Some will ask you to give 1 on the buzzer after giving the ready to start signal, when the brakes release but before power goes on, to see what they do, or ask you to call the trainee on the cab to cab at a certain prearranged, safe point to see how they handle the distraction. I always think that's worthwhile.

 

[bramling]

It's interesting seeing different driver instructors work. I've known most of them a long time and initially their styles rub off on their trainees but inevitably that tends to wear off to a greater or lesser degree.

Some also test their trainees more than others, particularly things like reactions. Some will ask you to give 1 on the buzzer after giving the ready to start signal, when the brakes release but before power goes on, to see what they do, or ask you to call the trainee on the cab to cab at a certain prearranged, safe point to see how they handle the distraction. I always think that's worthwhile.

Absolutely.

The worst type of instructor (in my view) is the ones who tell their trainee exactly what to do, or who constantly pick holes every time they approach the boundaries. Just like natural drivers there’s also natural instructors, the problem is weeding out those who are only in the role for extra money, which is generally a pittance anyway.

 

[Sly Sloth]

Honestly…….drivers used to have some sort of interest in railways now it’s all about the £

 

[Seehof]

Everybody looks back and remembers the good teachers! In my case I had a terrible minder who did some totally inappropriate things whilst I was being “trained”. I complained and eventually got moved to Darlington which was not my depot. My original minder eventually got the sack for causing a collision at Harrogate.
I am retired now but looking back some of the people responsible for my training were appalling.
Minding someone requires a mixture of very special skills and clearly not all have that. You need to gain as much experience and confidence as possible but also learn to relax a little and enjoy driving.
Remember you don’t move an inch anywhere without the signaller’s permission in one form or another.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Pick any regular journey you do in the car. Can you name : All road names, road speeds and where they change, the number of traffic lights and which ones have filter lanes, all of the alternative routes, local police stations, fire stations, schools, parking zones, weight restrictions over any bridges, all bridge heights and bridge numbers...... Or is it a case of you know where your going in general but could pull up the technical bits when you needed them ?

On my old route in the car - yes. I could name every road that branched off (including some of the roads they led to in case of diversions); the road speed was nearly always in an urban area; exactly the number of traffic lights and roughly how long they would stay on red/green (as each one was different according to the junction); all the bus lanes, the police stations, McDonalds, petrol stations, fire stations, schools and parking zones.

Yes, in a car, bridge weights/heights not really applicable to me but knowing the diversions during bridge strikes by overheight lorries helped...

Now, when I do drive, I drive a different route which includes telegraph poles, cows in a field, unusual trees, cambers in the road (to avoid), where the speed cameras are on the motorway, and even where the sun will be at the time of day I am driving.

That's my route knowledge....

He was using "Commentary Driving"

It would help reinforce his route knowledge and mitigate against risk.

And this wasn't in any way meant as a criticism - merely an observation as I'm sure all good drivers have their own learning/retention techniques