Network Rails North Wales Plans

[Gareth Marston]

For anybody wanting more information on the Wrexham-Chester redoubling, there is a fantastically detailed report on the Welsh Government web site:
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/policy/120119northsouthreport.pdf
This is a joint report by consultants and Network Rail for the WG.
It's rather obscurely in the "North-South Wales Journey Time Improvements" project.
I was pointed to it by an ATW guy at tonight's meeting in Wrexham.

Looks like all but 2.5 miles Rossett-Gresford will be doubled, with a 90mph linespeed (75 over the remaining single section and through the new junctions at Rosset and Gresford).
Saltney Junction itself will also be doubled. No changes at Wrexham itself.

Apparently Shrewsbury-Gobowen linespeed improvements start later this year, with Wrexham-Chester finished by 2015.
Some construction closures are needed, as you would expect.
A snip at c£48million (£36m for the redoubling, £10m for Salop-Gobowen 90mph and £2m for signalling changes on Anglesey).

all part of the aspiration to run hourly Holyhead to Cardiff trains? or did ATW have a different take on it?

 

[merlodlliw]

For anybody wanting more information on the Wrexham-Chester redoubling, there is a fantastically detailed report on the Welsh Government web site:
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/policy/120119northsouthreport.pdf
This is a joint report by consultants and Network Rail for the WG.
It's rather obscurely in the "North-South Wales Journey Time Improvements" project.
I was pointed to it by an ATW guy at tonight's meeting in Wrexham.

Looks like all but 2.5 miles Rossett-Gresford will be doubled, with a 90mph linespeed (75 over the remaining single section and through the new junctions at Rosset and Gresford).
Saltney Junction itself will also be doubled. No changes at Wrexham itself.

Apparently Shrewsbury-Gobowen linespeed improvements start later this year, with Wrexham-Chester finished by 2015.
Some construction closures are needed, as you would expect.
A snip at c£48million (£36m for the redoubling, £10m for Salop-Gobowen 90mph and £2m for signalling changes on Anglesey).

Well put.
The meeting was very well attended with over 50 present,including members of RF Forums, Mike Bagshaw ATW Directior was joined by three other ATW staff, The first half hour was titled " The First Ten Years" stakeholder update,and news on the redoubling which commences this year which will see
three trains an hour up & down through Wrexham General instead of the current hourly service. An hours Q & A ended a most interesting evening.


Bob

 

[krus_aragon]

The meeting was very well attended with over 50 present,including members of RF Forums, Mike Bagshaw ATW Directior was joined by three other ATW staff, The first half hour was titled " The First Ten Years" stakeholder update,and news on the redoubling which commences this year which will see
three trains an hour up & down through Wrexham General instead of the current hourly service. An hours Q & A ended a most interesting evening.

Was any mention made of what these three services per hour were likely to be? Or was this just the quoted capacity of the redoubled route?

 

[The Informer]

Somebody best hurry up and award the re-doubling works to a contractor as its still up for tender apparently!!!!

The linespeeds enhancements between Gobowen and Salop start this summer. One interesting work site will be the waterproofing of Cefn Mawr viaduct.

On another note the recent track renewals on the Borderlands line have been a success, hopefully the powers that be can now look at linespeed enhancements to make the timetable a little more realistic!

It's all go...

 

[merlodlliw]

Was any mention made of what these three services per hour were likely to be? Or was this just the quoted capacity of the redoubled route?

No,but Mike Bagshaw said the North East Wales taskforce would be taken into account, it was mentioned that with the speeding up from Salop to Chester,extra capacity would be available.
The WG push is to improve speeds North/South, we argued local travel patterns need to be taken into account,this was accepted.

Cambrian missed connections by a minute at Shrewsbury was raised, another of the ATW staff present said this was being looked at,however Mike Bagshaw seemed to argue "Better connections at Chester was more important"

The Wrexham London service was raised, but nothing known yet . Mike also said all aspirations of ATW going to London have been dropped.

 

[cle]

Aren't speed improvements also planned for Shrewsbury - Wolvo? This will make this whole route a lot more nippy and attractive (note Virgin are rumoured to be going at least to Shrewsbury now). Shame WSMR aren't here to benefit!

I wonder overall how much time would come off a journey from Birmingham/Wolvo to Chester after this whole route is done, and if it'd be competitive with via Crewe for through journeys running fast.

The priorities for North Wales travel are London, Manchester, Manchester Airport, Birmingham and Liverpool. Cardiff comes after that - and probably only civil servants and rugby matches. ATW need to realise that and increase services according to demand.

After this scheme, they should look with NR and Merseyrail at the Halton curve. Again it'd benefit the region far more than hourly trains to Cardiff. Might even get some EU dollar (especially if you include ROI in the argument!), as might electrification.

 

[merlodlliw]

Somebody best hurry up and award the re-doubling works to a contractor as its still up for tender apparently!!!!

The linespeeds enhancements between Gobowen and Salop start this summer. One interesting work site will be the waterproofing of Cefn Mawr viaduct.

On another note the recent track renewals on the Borderlands line have been a success, hopefully the powers that be can now look at linespeed enhancements to make the timetable a little more realistic!

It's all go...

It was mentioned Wrexham/Salop line will be closed for a period for the waterproofing, two weeks?.
Also a lot of work on the redouble will take place at night,however the line will be closed for three weeks for major points work, Work due to start on the redouble in October 2013 & finish 2015.

After this scheme, they should look with NR and Merseyrail at the Halton curve. Again it'd benefit the region far more than hourly trains to Cardiff. Might even get some EU dollar (especially if you include ROI in the argument!), as might electrification.

ATW have NOT looked at the Halton Curve , it was mentioned

Somebody best hurry up and award the re-doubling works to a contractor as its still up for tender apparently!!!!

Thats an interesting point

Better mention it here, ATW want to run Gerald to Wembley Sunday 24th March,if it can be arranged with I presume Chiltern staff from Birmingham,not confirmed yet, watch this space

Shame about Halton - I guess after this exertion they'll have to get back to poor neglected South Wales, so no doubt Halton can wait a decade.

I did gain the impression ATW are not interested in Liverpool, ATW it was stated would give up the Borderlands happily if Merseyrail took it over

 

[cle]

Shame about Halton - I guess after this exertion they'll have to get back to poor neglected South Wales, so no doubt Halton can wait a decade.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Shame about Halton - I guess after this exertion they'll have to get back to poor neglected South Wales, so no doubt Halton can wait a decade.

Mike Bagshaw's whole stance was, basically, if someone wants a new service and is prepared to pay for it, ATW will support them.
That was the line on Borderlands electrification as well as Halton.

The "3rd world" state of Chester station car parking came up.
It seems a multi-storey car park was proposed but refused planning permission.

There will apparently also be some faster running Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury but "only a minute" will be shaved off ATW running times.
They are also plugged in to the Northern Hub proposals, but nothing definite about extra Chester-Manchester services.

 

[cle]

Thanks. As usual linespeed improvements will not be 'passed on' but gobbled up my timetable slack!

And yes Chester - Manc fast is a gap especially if TPE are no longer going to bite.

 

[northwichcat]

They are also plugged in to the Northern Hub proposals, but nothing definite about extra Chester-Manchester services.

Chester-Manchester is down as getting an extra service in DfT's Illustrative Option schemes in CP5 HLOS:

Northern:
Half-hourly Micklefield - Leeds – Bradford – Rochdale – Manchester Victoria diesel services (fast Bradford – Manchester, assumed in Manchester to extend to Warrington/Chester).

So it's looking like there will be an extra service at present even though it's not rubber stamped.

I imagine the 'Warrington/Chester' is like the Hazel Grove to Bolton/Preston service being introduced in 2008. It was set to be Hazel Grove to Bolton if not enough extra carriages were obtained. Northern subleased 3 x 180s (part GMPTE/TfGM funded) following the delays in LO releasing their 150s so enough extra carriages were available to run Hazel Grove - Preston.

 

[The Informer]

Borderlands 3rd rail electrification is a 100% no go between Wrexham and Shotton. Maybe beyond Shotton to Bidston but you will never see it into Wrexham.

 

[Gareth]

Why? Is Shotton some sort of portal between universes where the laws of physics don't apply?

 

[TDK]

Borderlands 3rd rail electrification is a 100% no go between Wrexham and Shotton. Maybe beyond Shotton to Bidston but you will never see it into Wrexham.

I was led to belive that no new "3rd Rail" installments were permitted. The cost of the security and fencing alone will be huge. I cannot ever see it happening anywhere between Wrexham and Bidston. It should really go light rail with overheads but then you have the link to Liverpool.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why? Is Shotton some sort of portal between universes where the laws of physics don't apply?

Well it is a frontier station...

Actually, one of the practical reasons is that 3rd rail electrification is incompatible with steel sleepers.
And predictably, NR have recently relaid much of the line with steel sleepers.
Then there's the NR "no more 3rd rail" posture.

Anyway, the business case is the critical thing and I can't see it working.
If there was a 2tph DMU service it might test the water a bit more.

 

[The Planner]

Thanks. As usual linespeed improvements will not be 'passed on' but gobbled up my timetable slack!
.

Why wont they? In the case of Wolves Salop (read Wellington Salop) all the trains will do is sit at Shrewsbury longer. One minute on that line is not a miracle maker.

 

[cle]

Because they rarely are - improvements are made and yet public timetabled journeys creep up a minute or two each year.

 

[Rhydgaled]

As I said before the real danger is that an hourly Holyhead to Cardiff service will be imposed.

For anybody wanting more information on the Wrexham-Chester redoubling, there is a fantastically detailed report on the Welsh Government web site:
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/policy/120119northsouthreport.pdf

Ah, so it is WAG who are responsible for the hourly Cardiff - Holyhead via Wrexham idea.

Personally i would favor

2 hrly Holyhead to Euston
2 hrly Holyhead to Birmighmam via Crewe.
Hourly Llandudno-Manchester (possibly with the odd Bangor portion) that joins up with a service from Wrexham at Chester to provide extra capacity from Chester into Manchester.

Provision for 3/4 North to South trains a day.

Assuming electrification of north Wales coast and an OHLE version of a 444 (perhaps with fewer coaches) for the Holyhead - Birmingham that doesn't sound like too bad an idea. One problem is the Euston - Holyhead services are currently on top of the hourly ATW Holyhead service and themselves run hourly at certain times of day, so Holyhead might be a bit short of trains (perhaps introducing Llandudno - Holyhead stoppers would fix that though).

I think a handfull of really fast Holyhead-Cardiff services, with a calling pattern like the original southbound Gerald but with Wrexham instead of Crewe (basicly pickups along the north Wales coast, then non-stop (apart from calling at Shrewsbury) Wrexham to Newport) is a much better idea than an hourly (or even the present 2-hourly) normal stopping service.

The problem with portion working is Wales' regional express fleet includes a large proportion of class 175s, which are no good for portion working. If you can magic up a large fleet of 158s to swap for the 175s there'd be a lot more flexibility in what could be done.

It may be physically impossible to do without an infrastructure intervention.

What exactly are you suggesting might be impossible? A 1hr30min interval Pembroke Dock service (which I think could work in isolation, but not fit neatly with hourly services on other routes etc.)? or a service more frequent than that (hourly would I think require infrastructure intervention)?

It is a difficult task to do without the correct tools so there are no real tricks or techniques that are employed. You would need a complete list of the sectional running times, the timetable planning rules, a WTT and graph paper to make a stab at it. Then once you see the bigger picture you can see what is stopping a standard interval.

I think you may have mis-understood (or maybe I have misunderstood your post). I base my experimental timetables on journey times from the public timetable, but find that if I were to propose, for example:

• 0.5tph Holyhead - Crewe
• 0.5tph Holyhead - Manchester
• 0.5tph Llandudno - Crewe
• 0.5tph Llandudno - Manchester

I can't get it to work in such a way that:

• The intervals west of Llandudno Junction are hourly,
• The intervals between Llandudno Junction and Chester are half-hourly,
• The intervals between Chester and Manchester are hourly and
• The intervals between Chester and Crewe are hourly

Now, I think making it work like that is impossible, but I just wondered if anyone who understands timetabling better than me thought otherwise.

That's why my proposal ended up as 1tph Holyhead - MAN and 1tph Llandudno - Crewe, it seems to be possible to make it work out neatly.

These trains do not start at Manchester so it is still assisting the people of Wales getting to Manchester,

Sorry, I don't understand. I was pointing out that your suggested frequency for Welsh services (ie. ATW services, assuming you are talking before end of franchise) between Chester and Manchester was somewhere between houly and half-hourly (3 trains per 2 hours). Unless you mean to use portion working, with trains from both the Wrexham direction and the north-Wales coast joining for the trip into Manchester and back.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

news on the redoubling which commences this year which will see three trains an hour up & down through Wrexham General instead of the current hourly service.

Was any mention made of what these three services per hour were likely to be? Or was this just the quoted capacity of the redoubled route?

No,but Mike Bagshaw said the North East Wales taskforce would be taken into account, it was mentioned that with the speeding up from Salop to Chester,extra capacity would be available. The WG push is to improve speeds North/South, we argued local travel patterns need to be taken into account,this was accepted.

Was it confirmed that three trains an hour will definately be introduced from 2015/16 when the doubling is done? If so, where's the rolling stock coming from?

 

[tbtc]

Ah, so it is WAG who are responsible for the hourly Cardiff - Holyhead via Wrexham idea

Who else thinks that Cardiff - Holyhead is such a priority (as well as the subsidised flights to Anglesey)? Especially when compared to services to Manchester/ Liverpool etc.

I think a handfull of really fast Holyhead-Cardiff services, with a calling pattern like the original southbound Gerald but with Wrexham instead of Crewe (basicly pickups along the north Wales coast, then non-stop (apart from calling at Shrewsbury) Wrexham to Newport) is a much better idea than an hourly (or even the present 2-hourly) normal stopping service

So Colwyn Bay etc are more important than stopping at English stations like Hereford? Why do some people have this obsession with Holyhead - Cardiff at the expense of regular passengers? Other than those on WAG business (getting tickets on expenses), who else needs this?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Was it confirmed that three trains an hour will definately be introduced from 2015/16 when the doubling is done? If so, where's the rolling stock coming from?

No, just that the route would have that capacity.
The best ATW said was that it would give them scope to flex the current timetable and maybe get better utilisation.
Very firmly, it was up to DfT/WG to fund anything new.

There was chat that the freight operators would be more interested in routeing long-distance trains via Wrexham, something they are dissuaded from at the moment because of the single track bottleneck.

The WG project doc does talk about modelling a faster north-south timetable and says the trains would pass on the redoubled section (currently at Chester or around Chirk).

 

[Chris125]

Borderlands 3rd rail electrification is a 100% no go between Wrexham and Shotton. Maybe beyond Shotton to Bidston but you will never see it into Wrexham.

I can't see the need for 3rd rail with new Merseyrail rolling stock expected in the coming years, which should have provision for Dual Voltage operation even if it isn't initially fitted.

Chris

 

[Rhydgaled]

So Colwyn Bay etc are more important than stopping at English stations like Hereford?

Yes and no. I said based on the old Gerald via Crewe, but with Wrexham instead of Crewe, so no Colwyn Bay (it was Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Rhyl, Fflint, Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Newport, Cardiff wasn't it?) I'd propose adding Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath and Swansea to that.

Yes, it does miss out stations like Hereford (English) and Abergaveny (doesn't sound English to me). If the point is to link north and south Wales, only stopping at Shrewsbury between Wrexham and Newport seems sensible to me.

Remember I'm only talking about two or three services each way per day like this. Those should be the only services to skip places as large as Hereford and I think they should be the only Holyhead - Cardiff services. The present 2-hourly Cardiff to Holyhead, in my opinion, should be terminated at Chester (or routed from Chester onto Crewe, or maybe Manchester if there's the extra paths and plenty of rolling stock needed to do it), with Holyhead getting Manchester services instead.

 

[tbtc]

Yes, it does miss out stations like Hereford (English) and Abergaveny (doesn't sound English to me). If the point is to link north and south Wales, only stopping at Shrewsbury between Wrexham and Newport seems sensible to me

Why the obsession with linking "north and south", other than for political reasons?

There's no obsession with linking every corner of Scotland to Edinburgh

 

[krus_aragon]

Who else thinks that Cardiff - Holyhead is such a priority (as well as the subsidised flights to Anglesey)? Especially when compared to services to Manchester/ Liverpool etc.

Well it suits my personal travelling pattern, living in Cardiff with family up north. But I'm only one person, after all.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well it suits my personal travelling pattern, living in Cardiff with family up north. But I'm only one person, after all.

It will suit a few of course.But my best guess is an handful.

 

[cle]

As I said above, predominantly pollies and rugby fans.

Manchester has the main long haul airport, the concerts, the footie and not to mention the jobs, shopping and conferences.

Liverpool - shopping, Easyjet and also lots of Scousers who travel/holiday on the Coast.

Birmingham - less so but still lots of events.

All via the regional centre at Chester, some also via the rail hub at Crewe. No brainer!

 

[Holly]

.. between Wrexham and Bidston. It should really go light rail with overheads but then you have the link to Liverpool.

Yes, totally. 750vDC overhead. Eventually linking up with trams at Birkenhead docks / Wirral Waters.

 

[HSTEd]

You know....
If you could get the travel time from London to Holyhead down to 90 minutes or so the fast ferry might even be able to compete with the flight between London and Dublin.....

Unfortunately, even after HS2 is built that would require continuous LGV from Crewe to Holyhead.... which would be rather expensive.

 

[jones_bangor]

As I said above, predominantly pollies and rugby fans.
!

What's a pollie?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You know....
If you could get the travel time from London to Holyhead down to 90 minutes or so the fast ferry might even be able to compete with the flight between London and Dublin.....

Unfortunately, even after HS2 is built that would require continuous LGV from Crewe to Holyhead.... which would be rather expensive.

Expensive indeed....only a grand European funding initiative could ever cover the cost....do-able though - 120 minutes?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes and no. I said based on the old Gerald via Crewe, but with Wrexham instead of Crewe, so no Colwyn Bay (it was Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Rhyl, Fflint, Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Newport, Cardiff wasn't it?) I'd propose adding Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath and Swansea to that.

Yes, it does miss out stations like Hereford (English) and Abergaveny (doesn't sound English to me). If the point is to link north and south Wales, only stopping at Shrewsbury between Wrexham and Newport seems sensible to me.

Remember I'm only talking about two or three services each way per day like this. Those should be the only services to skip places as large as Hereford and I think they should be the only Holyhead - Cardiff services. The present 2-hourly Cardiff to Holyhead, in my opinion, should be terminated at Chester (or routed from Chester onto Crewe, or maybe Manchester if there's the extra paths and plenty of rolling stock needed to do it), with Holyhead getting Manchester services instead.

As you all know I've got 11 years of business traveling UP and DOWN the Marches under my belt, the 0425 Holyhead to Cardiff is the most important train of the day as its stops at Ludlow and Leominster and lets large numbers of private school and FE students commute into Hereford. If there doing something useful in boosting capacity at peak times then there's a place for Holyhead/Cardiff trains but otherwise no.