Network Rails North Wales Plans

[cle]

Will they ever sort out the weekend timetable? Even to Chester on a Saturday, it's dismal.

 

[merlodlliw]

Will they ever sort out the weekend timetable? Even to Chester on a Saturday, it's dismal.

From where?
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The WG aren't really pushing for North Wales electrification, I don't think the current Transport Secretary gets rail, and is very road focused....he seemed quite good when he first got the job, but I suspect now it's beyond his capability to deliver for rail - the current Wrexham - Saltney redoubling is the result of his predecessors hard work. Cheryl Gillan, ex Welsh Secretary, delivered South Wales wires.....

The driver is there now because the Welsh Secretary - part of UK Government and an MP for Clwyd West on the route - is pushing hard.

[/QUOTE] Jones Bangor/

I agree IWJ ringfenced the money for redoubling,however this was after canvassing, in fairness to the current rail portfolio holder, he has signed it off to commence this year. Plus it helps to have the Sec Of State for Wales living next to the North Wales Main line, & appears to be really pushing for wires.

 

[RobShipway]

If the North Wales route was electrified, would this mean reinstatement of the lines to the North of Prestatyn station as I suspect that with electrification you could increase line speeds, but there would be a need for further points where slower trains can be passed?

 

[Welshman]

If the North Wales route was electrified, would this mean reinstatement of the lines to the North of Prestatyn station as I suspect that with electrification you could increase line speeds, but there would be a need for further points where slower trains can be passed?

The north of Prestatyn is actually in the sea [!], but I gather there are plans to reinstate the up through line at Rhyl, allowing up trains as well as down, to pass here.

I haven't heard of any plans to restore the four-track formation anywhere else along the coast.

 

[RobShipway]

The north of Prestatyn is actually in the sea [!], but I gather there are plans to reinstate the up through line at Rhyl, allowing up trains as well as down, to pass here.

I haven't heard of any plans to restore the four-track formation anywhere else along the coast.

Maybe I should have phrased it as the North Side of the station where the tracks where removed.

 

[merlodlliw]

Maybe I should have phrased it as the North Side of the station where the tracks where removed.

That was platform one, two & three were the island, not sure if they have been renumbered? with defunct platform four to the South.

 

[Welshman]

That was platform one, two & three were the island, not sure if they have been renumbered? with defunct platform four to the South.

This shows they have:-

http://nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/PRT/plan.html

 

[Tracky]

That set of photos needs updating...

 

[Welshman]

Agreed.
But it was posted mainly to answer merlodlliw's query as to whether the platforms had been renumbered when two running lines were taken-out.

 

[ivanhoe]

The days when Euston Holyhead had a simple change of engines at Crewe! Sometimes with decisions on stock procurement, we have gone backwards. The case for North Wales Electrification is more aspirational than necessary.Although if I lived along the route, then clearly I would not want to be missing out!

 

[jones_bangor]

The days when Euston Holyhead had a simple change of engines at Crewe! Sometimes with decisions on stock procurement, we have gone backwards. The case for North Wales Electrification is more aspirational than necessary.Although if I lived along the route, then clearly I would not want to be missing out!

Cutting journey times from North Wales to London to c. 2 hrs will be massively beneficial - I see your point about loco-changes etc, but expanding electrification to North Wales, and at least Wrexham & Shrewsbury, would cut journey times to Manchester, Birmingham etc also and allow HS2 connectivity to be maximised.

I've no doubt that we'll be into the 2020s by the time all this happens, and by then the Voyager and Coradia trains will be distinctly middle-aged+.....

 

[krus_aragon]

The north of Prestatyn is actually in the sea [!], but I gather there are plans to reinstate the up through line at Rhyl, allowing up trains as well as down, to pass here.

I haven't heard of any plans to restore the four-track formation anywhere else along the coast.

Mostyn's loops are to be reinstated, with Holywell Jn's loops taken up. The down platform avoiding line at Abegele will be removed as well. It strikes me as a little odd to provide platform avoiding lines at busy Rhyl while removing them from quiet Abergele. I can only assume that this is to provide for more Junction-Chester fast services in the future.

 

[cle]

Will they ever sort out the weekend timetable? Even to Chester on a Saturday, it's dismal.

London - Chester and North Wales.

 

[Welshman]

Mostyn's loops are to be reinstated, with Holywell Jn's loops taken up. The down platform avoiding line at Abegele will be removed as well. It strikes me as a little odd to provide platform avoiding lines at busy Rhyl while removing them from quiet Abergele. I can only assume that this is to provide for more Junction-Chester fast services in the future.

Ah, thank you for that information.
Presumably then the down line at Abergele will be slewed to serve the platform[like the up]. That will at least remove the current severe restriction for the turnout on to the platform line.

 

[TDK]

Ah, thank you for that information.
Presumably then the down line at Abergele will be slewed to serve the platform[like the up]. That will at least remove the current severe restriction for the turnout on to the platform line.

It would probably be better and cheaper to take up the current passenger loop line and extend the platform to the current through line as they did at Bisceter North on the Chilterns

 

[merlodlliw]

This shows they have:-

http://nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/PRT/plan.html

Thanks, should have looked at Nat Rails site,but time & tide etc.

There is an article on todays North Wales Rail Newsboard, about the broken rail between Abergele & Colwyn Bay link http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm for pics

Copy below from the article

from North Wales Rail website 5th Feb written by Charlie Hume the Editor
The broken rail discovered at Llysfaen on Friday 25 January and caused major delays that evening. Single-line working was introduced between Rhyl and Llandudno Junction until the break could be repaired. This could have been a lot worse, as the train following would have passed over it at 85 mph, but instead only the front bogie of the following train ran over it at low speed after being asked by the signaller at Abergele to examine the line.

It can be seen that the failure as occurred at a welded joint. It has to be said that in these days of ultrasonic testing such breaks in service are very rare.

 

[Penmorfa]

It would probably be better and cheaper to take up the current passenger loop line and extend the platform to the current through line as they did at Bisceter North on the Chilterns

This is indeed what is going to happen.

 

[SIGGY56]

The line does not warrant a more intensive service - Just a reliable one so the investment would never really generate a return. Dosh should be spent where it can have the biggest impact and make the better return.

The 150's are great units with life left but need looking after and to that end a layover at each end would do them some good. When they need replacing 20 years down the line I am sure a good diesel unit will be available. Maybe some second hand 172's...
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My suggestion was based purely on the fact it could be done 'now' and Northern and LM have local fleets.

What would be sensible and improve the Wrexham Bidston line in one hit would be a spiral down from Shotton High Level to Low Level so that an additional service from Wrexham (making it half hourly to Shotton) could access the North Wales coast into Chester. Never happen though...

There was a proposal plan for here many years ago to enable steel trains from Shotton to gain the main Chester to Holyhead line via a new chord running from the top line by Hawarden Swing Bridge to a point west of the former station at Queensferry on the main line (plans scrapped in the 1980's) - again this would be no good for trains from Wrexham to Chester via Shotton and would face the wrong way!
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Thanks, should have looked at Nat Rails site,but time & tide etc.

There is an article on todays North Wales Rail Newsboard, about the broken rail between Abergele & Colwyn Bay link http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm for pics

Copy below from the article

Yes, quite a chaos that day - the actual incident happened between Abergele and Llysfaen (just under 2 miles west of Abergele) - by the site of the 1868 Abergele railway accident
. Single line working had to be imposed between Llandudno Junction and Rhyl - the emergency crossover at Llysfaen could not be used due to operating problems.

 

[Rhydgaled]

From the NW Coast newsletter:

Shrewsbury-Chester Rail Users Association

A Public Meeting will be held on Wednesday 6 March 2013 starting at 19:30 in St Mary’s Church Social Club, Regent St, Wrexham when the subject will be: Track re-doubling, opportunities after 2015. The speaker will be Mr Michael Bagshaw, Commercial Director, Arriva Trains Wales. Followed by a Question and Answer session. Visitors are most welcome to attend.

Does anyone have more information on this? Opportunities after redoubling, both this one and the one closer to (my) home, between Llanelli and Swansea, will be interesting, the lack of spare rolling stock (other than perhaps a 150 or two) means I doubt either will bring any immediate service level improvement other than allowing trains to stop at Gowerton, unless of course they use LHCS (the ATW mark2s are still spare aren't there). At least both schemes should reduce the effects of disruption.

However, at present I am not at home in Pembrokeshire during the week, I'm up near Manchester. Therefore, Wrexham is slightly more accessible to me than it would be if I was home. What time is the talk likely to finish, and how far is it from Wrexham General? So I can see if it's feesible for me to go.

If I don't make it, I hope somebody else will remind Mr Bagshaw about the spare mark2s, and the inappropriateness of class 150s for long-distance or express services.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm sure Meroldlliw will fill you in.

I've seen suggestions for an aspiration for an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service which I'm pretty sure is not what folk between Shrewsbury and Chester want.

ATW made 22% of all TOC profits in the UK in 2011 so I hope Mr Bagshaw doesn't try the we've no money excuse.

 

[tbtc]

http://heretothereshop.com/blog/?p=1232 - I see that one arm of Arriva (the buses) are competing with another arm (AWT) with free wifi/ leather seats coming to the Wrexham - Chester service in April.

Hope that doesn't scupper the railway investment.

I've seen suggestions for an aspiration for an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service

I hope that they at least stop some of them at Hereford...

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've seen suggestions for an aspiration for an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service which I'm pretty sure is not what folk between Shrewsbury and Chester want.

Suggestions from whom? And did they have any suggestions as to where the rolling stock would come from?

What would you, and/or the folk between Shrewsbury and Chester, suggest instead? Or do you agree with my suggestion that 16-22 mark2s and perhaps a 150 or two isn't going to allow for much of an increase in frequency? As I suggested earlier in this topic, I think it'd be more appropriate to reduce the Holyhead - Cardiff service to two Gerald-style services each way per day. Does anyone know if the 2-hourly Chester - Wrexham - Cardiff service that would be left over in that event would be able to cope with just 2-car 175s?

ATW made 22% of all TOC profits in the UK in 2011 so I hope Mr Bagshaw doesn't try the we've no money excuse.

That's an interesting one. Anything to do with WAG paying what seems to be the full cost for Gerald (does anyone know if it really is the full cost?) and ATW keeping all the fares revenue (something I've heard several times on here, from Meroldlliw I believe)? Speaking of which, does ATW keep all fares revenue from the other WAG-funded increment to the present service, the Fishguard runs?

 

[tbtc]

Suggestions from whom? And did they have any suggestions as to where the rolling stock would come from?

I'm just guessing, but a lot of the stock for a proposed hourly Cardiff - Holyhead service would presumably come from the Birmingham - Holyhead service, i.e. the passengers of Gobowen etc would therefore lose their long-running service to Wolverhampton and Birmingham (to provide yet more Cardiff services)?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Wrexham is on the fringe of NW England and links to its major conurbations are always going to be more important for its people and economy than links to the North Wales coastal strip and Cardiff, its geography.

Gobowen has quite a large catchment in North Shropshire- again its geography there's strong demand to the West Midlands and to NW England.

Having all the trains go to minor markets meaning everyone has to change at Chester and Shrewsbury is not best serving the interests of the area. Wrexham and North Shropshire have to be on guard against others who would like to run trains for other reasons than serving the economic interests of their area.

 

[TDK]

I'm sure Meroldlliw will fill you in.

I've seen suggestions for an aspiration for an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service which I'm pretty sure is not what folk between Shrewsbury and Chester want.

ATW made 22% of all TOC profits in the UK in 2011 so I hope Mr Bagshaw doesn't try the we've no money excuse.

I have mentioned this before but would a Manchester service be better say from New Street instead of Holyhead, surely this would increase revenue?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I have mentioned this before but would a Manchester service be better say from New Street instead of Holyhead, surely this would increase revenue?

From a passenger and a revenue point of view it would certainly be better for NE Wales/NW Shropshire to have a direct link to Manchester. Chester-Warrington-Manchester is corridor that needs more seats and it has been suggested that one of the 6tph Trans Penine expresses post northern hub terminates at Chester in addition to the hourly ATW N Wales Coast trains via Warrington. Would extending this to Wrexham be an option i wonder? Wrexham has the platform capacity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would extending this to Wrexham be an option i wonder? Wrexham has the platform capacity.

Not from the northern direction I don't think - no signalled route into P2/3/4.
Hence everything has to waste time reversing in Watery Road siding, with a double shuffle needed to reach Central.
Maybe they will put something more flexible in with the redoubling.

 

[TDK]

From a passenger and a revenue point of view it would certainly be better for NE Wales/NW Shropshire to have a direct link to Manchester. Chester-Warrington-Manchester is corridor that needs more seats and it has been suggested that one of the 6tph Trans Penine expresses post northern hub terminates at Chester in addition to the hourly ATW N Wales Coast trains via Warrington. Would extending this to Wrexham be an option i wonder? Wrexham has the platform capacity.

Instead of running a train from BNS to Holyhead/Llandudno run it to Manchester instead and then run the manchester Llandudno services through to Holyhead to compensate with a more robust shuttle from Llandudno Jct. to make up the loss. This way ATW will be connecting more of Wales to Manchester as it is as usual only the South of Wales that has a direct link. This in turn will give ATW a better unit diagram for the ETRTMS fitted 158's for the Cambrian. Only a though but I personally think this is better than the current hourly service from Wrexham up the coast and ATW will still be fulfilling their franchise agreement..

 

[merlodlliw]

From the NW Coast newsletter:

Does anyone have more information on this? Opportunities after redoubling, both this one and the one closer to (my) home, between Llanelli and Swansea, will be interesting, the lack of spare rolling stock (other than perhaps a 150 or two) means I doubt either will bring any immediate service level improvement other than allowing trains to stop at Gowerton, unless of course they use LHCS (the ATW mark2s are still spare aren't there). At least both schemes should reduce the effects of disruption.

However, at present I am not at home in Pembrokeshire during the week, I'm up near Manchester. Therefore, Wrexham is slightly more accessible to me than it would be if I was home. What time is the talk likely to finish, and how far is it from Wrexham General? So I can see if it's feesible for me to go.

If I don't make it, I hope somebody else will remind Mr Bagshaw about the spare mark2s, and the inappropriateness of class 150s for long-distance or express services.

It will be over by 2100, so you could connect with a Chester/Manchester service, the station is only a couple of minutes walk from Wrexham General
as you walk out of the station frontage,turn left & St Marys is visible is on the other side of the road, yes ill fill everyone in.
If you can not attend Ill ask your question.
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http://heretothereshop.com/blog/?p=1232 - I see that one arm of Arriva (the buses) are competing with another arm (AWT) with free wifi/ leather seats coming to the Wrexham - Chester service in April.

Hope that doesn't scupper the railway investment.



I hope that they at least stop some of them at Hereford...

No Arriva Bus wont scupper the investment, after all its only a 12 mile run Wrexham to Chester,

 

[TDK]

No Arriva Bus wont scupper the investment, after all its only a 12 mile run Wrexham to Chester,

I think the line will need to be shut when the re-doubling takes place and probably shut for quite a lengthy period and for Arriva Busses I would imagine that they have been asked to improve their service and bus environment for this purpose when alternative transport will need to be provided between Wrexham and Chester as so to keep the customers using an Arriva (DB) service vice a different one!