Network Rails North Wales Plans

[merlodlliw]

I read this interesting article in todays North Wales Rail newsboard,Eryl Crump is a senior reporter with the local regional Daily Post and is an expert on rail matters, things are looking brighter for us North Waliens, the story is below thanks to Charlie Hume editor of North Wales Rail. The statement " the schemes in North Wales will be the biggest investment in the Welsh railway network since the 1870s. " is indeed welcome

Network Rail's plans - report by Eryl Crump

I spoke with Mark Langman of Network Rail on 8 January about their recent announcements. Faster train services between North and South Wales should be running by 2018 thanks to a major £34m upgrade. Network Rail (NR) says the schemes in North Wales will be the biggest investment in the Welsh railway network since the 1870s. The news has been welcomed by senior politicians but calls have been made for greater investment in North Wales.

The first stage of the 10-year route modernisation plan will involve re-signalling the line between Flint and Llandudno. Aligned with a similar scheme to re-signal the Marches route between Newport and Shrewsbury, both projects will allow more frequent and faster trains between North and South Wales. Engineers believe the re-signalling could take 15 minutes off journey times to Cardiff. The line west of Llandudno Junction will be re-signalled by 2020.

Other projects include major refurbishment of the four metal spans of the historic Barmouth Bridge (budgeted at £3m) plus c.£0.5m per annum (2014-2019) on a rolling programme of timber repairs and maintenance the viaduct, a total spending on the viaduct of c.£5.5m by end of 2019. Also planned is a complete makeover for Holyhead station (£1.5m) to be complete during 2016 although the final programme is yet to be confirmed.

In a separate development, Minister with responsibility for Transport, Carl Sargeant, has announced that the Welsh Government, working in collaboration with the regional transport consortium, Taith, is to develop a business case for the electrification of the North Wales line. The Minister has confirmed that a robust business case will be developed that will capture the full social, economic and environmental benefits for north Wales.

The business plan for modernisation will build on previous work done to date, including the important North East Wales Area Based Transport Study. Mr Sargeant told the press: 'I want to see North Wales properly connected to the UK electric infrastructure, with effective cross-border links ...
Modernising the North Wales rail line is a key element of this ambition and has the potential of greatly improving the rail services and unlocking economic growth for the region, which will in turn help tackle poverty.'

In addition to the North Wales Coast Main Line (from Holyhead to Crewe), consideration will be given to the rail network in north-east Wales (including the Wrexham to Bidston line, the line from Wrexham to Chester, and the line from Chester to Warrington Bank Quay) in order to maximise the social, economic and environmental benefits to the region resulting from modernisation. Work now begins on establishing the strategic case for investment, which will define the scope, objectives, benefits and long-list of options for the project. This in turn will lead on to a robust case for change, which we are told will be complete this summer.

 

[steamdrivenand]

How about starting a project (HS3?) for a high speed line between Holyhead and Cardiff that didn't cross the border into England at any point. What's the best guess at route and how many billions? Oh and passenger loading.

 

[oglord]

How about starting a project (HS3?) for a high speed line between Holyhead and Cardiff that didn't cross the border into England at any point.

Why? :roll:

 

[steamdrivenand]

Just for interest and because I can see no way that you can get sensible journey times between north and south Wales without.

 

[Tomnick]

I'm not sure how resignalling alone is meant to take such a substantial amount off journey times - is line speed in some areas currently limited by the existing signalling?

 

[steamdrivenand]

Just for interest and because I can see no way that you can get sensible journey times between north and south Wales without.

And wouldn't it just be the most fantastic rail journey?

 

[Surreyman]

I read this interesting article in todays North Wales Rail newsboard,Eryl Crump is a senior reporter with the local regional Daily Post and is an expert on rail matters, things are looking brighter for us North Waliens, the story is below thanks to Charlie Hume editor of North Wales Rail. The statement " the schemes in North Wales will be the biggest investment in the Welsh railway network since the 1870s. " is indeed welcome

Although the article sounds more like a 'wish list' than hard political/financial commitment, it is nevertheless to be welcomed.
Would this be CP6 or separate (Welsh Government spending) in CP5?

In order for this to go ahead and be viable, it would have to include electrification from Chester to Manchester/Crewe, meaning that the Welsh Government spending would have to be matched on the English side.

 

[Welshman]

In order for this to go ahead and be viable, it would have to include electrification from Chester to Manchester/Crewe, meaning that the Welsh Government spending would have to be matched on the English side.

Regarding traffic to Manchester, electrification to Warrington would be sufficient, as the route to Manchester via Chat Moss will then be electrified once the current Manchester-Earlestown works are completed.

And electrification from Chester to Crewe has already been suggested, in respect of freeing-up Virgin's diesel voyagers and replacing the Euston-Chester services with pendolinos.

 

[merlodlliw]

How about starting a project (HS3?) for a high speed line between Holyhead and Cardiff that didn't cross the border into England at any point. What's the best guess at route and how many billions? Oh and passenger loading.

Why should the line not cross into England?, Wrexham/Flintshire/ are where the main population travel cross the border to work, but not to South Wales.

I agree with the comment Electrics to Warrington are all that is required,it would seem Crewe to Chester has many problems with the line in hollows..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although the article sounds more like a 'wish list' than hard political/financial commitment, it is nevertheless to be welcomed.
Would this be CP6 or separate (Welsh Government spending) in CP5?

In order for this to go ahead and be viable, it would have to include electrification from Chester to Manchester/Crewe, meaning that the Welsh Government spending would have to be matched on the English side.

No idea about the spend, but Salop & Cheshire West are keen to see a better service, anyhow its good this thinking is happening, at last we seem to have the Welsh Office & WG all singing from the same sheet. I am sure this is probably the first time? we have had three Ministers all in agreement & importantly all with North Wales constituencies, Clwyd West(Sec Of State)/Deeside & Wrexham both (WG)

 

[steamdrivenand]

Why should the line not cross into England?, Wrexham/Flintshire/ are where the main population travel cross the border to work, but not to South Wales.

It just seems the current plans provide for very marginal improvements in the journey between north and south and it would be nice think through what would be involved in actually going north/south internally. It could become a tourist attraction in its own right, as dramatic and appealing as Swiss railways and the Rocky Mountaineer etc.

I grant that some of the currently suggested improvements will speed cross border commuting in both directions in the north, but that doesn't really improve Welsh national cohesion. There's a possibility that they might also increase the risk of work migrating out of North Wales, rather than create an inflow.

 

[tbtc]

Sounds interesting, but the problem will be the mish mash of services and borders. If you take the rule of thumb that you need a half hourly service to warrant electrification then wiring the Holyhead line may come at the expense of most of the current services to Cardiff (being replaced with more to Crewe/ Manchester). Would certain people be prepared to accept that?

I grant that some of the currently suggested improvements will speed cross border commuting in both directions in the north, but that doesn't really improve Welsh national cohesion. There's a possibility that they might also increase the risk of work migrating out of North Wales, rather than create an inflow

Why are cross border links (encouraging people to live one side and work on the other) A Bad Thing?

 

[steamdrivenand]

Why are cross border links (encouraging people to live one side and work on the other) A Bad Thing?

I'm not saying it is, but surely North Wales needs jobs itself? Whilst faster rail journey times should improve the lot of commuters, it might also encourage employers to set up in England rather than going 'into' Wales because they know Welsh employees can travel easily. That would encourage more employers to 'cluster' in England and not in the further reaches of North Wales.

North Welsh local authorities won't benefit from tax income from the developments in Cheshire West and in their turn those commuters might eventually migrate to England, depopulating North Wales even further.

What I'm saying is that improvements might not always lead to the benefits that were originally envisaged and can, sometimes, lead to the direct opposite.

 

[tbtc]

I'm not saying it is, but surely North Wales needs jobs itself? Whilst faster rail journey times should improve the lot of commuters, it might also encourage employers to set up in England rather than going 'into' Wales because they know Welsh employees can travel easily. That would encourage more employers to 'cluster' in England and not in the further reaches of North Wales.

North Welsh local authorities won't benefit from tax income from the developments in Cheshire West and in their turn those commuters might eventually migrate to England, depopulating North Wales even further.

What I'm saying is that improvements might not always lead to the benefits that were originally envisaged and can, sometimes, lead to the direct opposite.

Put it this way - would North Wales benefit more from electrifying the coast line and having direct trains to Liverpool/ Manchester or would it benefit more from "a high speed line between Holyhead and Cardiff that didn't cross the border into England at any point"?

 

[steamdrivenand]

Put it this way - would North Wales benefit more from electrifying the coast line and having direct trains to Liverpool/ Manchester or would it benefit more from "a high speed line between Holyhead and Cardiff that didn't cross the border into England at any point"?

Succinctly put tbtc, I think I'd amend it slightly to read 'would Wales benefit more', rather than just North Wales. Oh and the two projects aren't mutually exclusive, for this discussion both could be undertaken.
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How's about Cardiff/Swansea/Carmarthen/Aberystwyth/Corwen/Conway/Bangor/Holyhead? Not through the towns, but there or thereabouts Parkway stations. Comparing it with proposed journey times on HS2 I guess it'd be Holyhead to Cardiff 2hrs 30mins, Cardiff to Aberystwyth just over an hour, Swansea to Cardiff 25 mins or so, about half the current journey times and linking a lot of major conurbations that have tortuous services at present.

 

[Rational Plan]

At the end of the day Wales is lightly populated and most of it is in the South Wales Belt.

Though it would be cool and transform the economies of the interior the cost of a high speed line would be huge, especially for a route that would struggle to support a half hourly train.

A better strategy would be see what old North South Lines could be reopened and whether the cost would ever add up.

 

[steamdrivenand]

A better strategy would be see what old North South Lines could be reopened and whether the cost would ever add up.

I guess you probably could join some missing links to make a through north/south route but it probably wouldn't save any time compared to dragging out to England and down the Marches and it certainly wouldn't be transformational.

 

[swcovas]

I guess you probably could join some missing links to make a through north/south route but it probably wouldn't save any time compared to dragging out to England and down the Marches and it certainly wouldn't be transformational.

The fact is that because of its geography Wales never really had a North coast - South coast railway route. Looking at what existed in the past the closest you could get by reistating old lines is still going to be Swansea-Carmarthen-Aberystwyth (reversal) - Cambrian coast (another reversal at Mach) - Afon Wen - Bangor. The route going up from Merthyr to Brecon would involve reversal at Brecon and at Moat Lane. Cardiff - Swansea District Line- Central Wales line- Builth Rd - Moat lane would only involve the reinstatement of that last section.

I don't think we're ever going to see a completely new line (or motorway!) from north to south and the Marches is going to be the best alternative for years to come though Carm - Aber does have a certain appeal. A few years ago the figure of £250m was being banded about.....sounds a bargain to me!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For what period of time now have the upgrading plans for Holyhead Station been in the "forward consideration" file ?

 

[PHILIPE]

How about starting a project (HS3?) for a high speed line between Holyhead and Cardiff that didn't cross the border into England at any point. What's the best guess at route and how many billions? Oh and passenger loading.

You would have the most severest gradients in the UK

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm not saying it is, but surely North Wales needs jobs itself? Whilst faster rail journey times should improve the lot of commuters, it might also encourage employers to set up in England rather than going 'into' Wales because they know Welsh employees can travel easily. That would encourage more employers to 'cluster' in England and not in the further reaches of North Wales.

North Welsh local authorities won't benefit from tax income from the developments in Cheshire West and in their turn those commuters might eventually migrate to England, depopulating North Wales even further.

What I'm saying is that improvements might not always lead to the benefits that were originally envisaged and can, sometimes, lead to the direct opposite.

Interesting thoughts, Migration in North East Wales will not come into it,we have the Largest non state employer in Wales at Broughton,Airbus which employs many from across the County Border which is opposite with all due respect to your thoughts, then again we have many in North East Wales who commute to Manchester & Merseyside to work, many of which have set up home in Wrexham County.No one in private industry commutes North South on a daily Basis past Shrewsbury. BTW steamdavid how far are you from Mow Cop? which kind of changes the subject, used to a station near by

 

[Ironside]

You would have the most severest gradients in the UK

Or the longest tunnel, think Gotthard base tunnel.

Which would cost several billion.

 

[The Informer]

Bob,

I think I mentioned ages ago regarding North Wales. The Bidston line will re-commence steel sleeper relaying again soon, once this is complete line speeds should be increased to make the timetable more realistic! As regarding 3rd rail electrification are steel sleepers a wise choice?

The Shrewsbury to Chester line should then get its fair share of relaying shortly after, (maybe into 2014) this is absolutely essential for increasing the line speed from its current 70mph to 90mph.
By this time we should see some works regarding the re-double between Saltney and Wrexham.

As regards to re-signalling the Marches route if the current state of the Shrewsbury to Crewe scheme is anything to go by then I wouldn't hold your breath!!!

 

[lancastrian]

Or the longest tunnel, think Gotthard base tunnel.

Which would cost several billion.

Well as long as the Welsh Taxpayer ONLY pays for it, I would love to see that route and tunnel built.

 

[steamdrivenand]

No one in private industry commutes North South on a daily Basis past Shrewsbury. BTW steamdavid how far are you from Mow Cop? which kind of changes the subject, used to a station near by

I realise there's virtually no north/south commuting except by politicians and other public employees and it's the politicians that seem worried about the abysmal rail and road links between the top and bottom bits of Wales.

SDA Towers is hidden in a valley so we can't see Mow Cop, which is approx a dozen miles north east of us. We're midway between the M6 and the WCML and with the prevailing wind we can hear the grumble of freights in the distance as they grind up Madeley Bank out of Crewe. The village did have a station until the end of WW2, but it was an early Parkway and a good few miles from the actual village. Of course in those days such stations bore the postscript 'Road', not Parkway.

 

[Bakers1970]

For what period of time now have the upgrading plans for Holyhead Station been in the "forward consideration" file ?

Exactly my reason for the original post on this thread... There has been suggested plans past and present without no action at all.... I have heard from a source within Stena at Holyhead port that the plans are all set ...it's just waiting for the money fairy to drop some magic dust...

Hopefully when the station improvements works get going it will hopefully lead to a more robust port /rail improvement for all

 

[merlodlliw]

I realise there's virtually no north/south commuting except by politicians and other public employees and it's the politicians that seem worried about the abysmal rail and road links between the top and bottom bits of Wales.

SDA Towers is hidden in a valley so we can't see Mow Cop, which is approx a dozen miles north east of us. We're midway between the M6 and the WCML and with the prevailing wind we can hear the grumble of freights in the distance as they grind up Madeley Bank out of Crewe. The village did have a station until the end of WW2, but it was an early Parkway and a good few miles from the actual village. Of course in those days such stations bore the postscript 'Road', not Parkway.

Cheers, I mentioned Mow Cop as I have relations living in that area & the folly is visible from my home on clear days,Porto visited Mow Cop on his last session around Stoke & his guide pointed to the Denbighshire Hills,
http://www.mowcop.info/htm/station/station.htm
As for those who travel North/South the biggest moan does in fact come from Politicians and those in the statutory sector many of which I meet on a daily basis, with a £50M satellite WG building at Llandudno Junction it amazes me why they need travel to Cardiff anymore, but then it would become a one day event.
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Exactly my reason for the original post on this thread... There has been suggested plans past and present without no action at all.... I have heard from a source within Stena at Holyhead port that the plans are all set ...it's just waiting for the money fairy to drop some magic dust...

Hopefully when the station improvements works get going it will hopefully lead to a more robust port /rail improvement for all

I recall around the time of the Tunnel Fire around 1970 , when the ships were transferred to Heysham for Dublin, some BR board members tried to make this move permanent.
but a combined outcry from the NUR / Politicians /and others including the Dublin Govt scuppered this threat.

 

[Tracky]

With the tight clearances in some of the tunnels between Junction and Holyhead I wonder how much electrification would cost. As has been said to justify it it would really call for a return to Manchester-Llandudno and Crewe-Holyhead services operated by EMU's with additional Bangor/Chester-Euston services. Direct Cardiff trains would really need to be additional above the standard timetable of electric trains (maybe in the form of 67's and DVT's).

My advice is to consider Chester Crewe first (possibly giving shuttle duties to Northern or LM) and consider the coast later. 20 odd miles is a big enough task as it is when you consider the length of time Chat Moss has taken. With this in mind how about upping the linespeed on the Middlewich line to allow full closure for a period to 'get the job done'.

As for the Wrexham Bidston line, there is no need for electrification, it is a vanity project. What is needed is improvements to the timetable by linespeed to allow a RELIABLE hourly service to be maintained with good quality 150s.

 

[merlodlliw]

Bob,

I think I mentioned ages ago regarding North Wales. The Bidston line will re-commence steel sleeper relaying again soon, once this is complete line speeds should be increased to make the timetable more realistic! As regarding 3rd rail electrification are steel sleepers a wise choice?

The Shrewsbury to Chester line should then get its fair share of relaying shortly after, (maybe into 2014) this is absolutely essential for increasing the line speed from its current 70mph to 90mph.
By this time we should see some works regarding the re-double between Saltney and Wrexham.

As regards to re-signalling the Marches route if the current state of the Shrewsbury to Crewe scheme is anything to go by then I wouldn't hold your breath!!!

Thanks for the comments, which as usual from you are spot on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As for the Wrexham Bidston line, there is no need for electrification, it is a vanity project. What is needed is improvements to the timetable by linespeed to allow a RELIABLE hourly service to be maintained with good quality 150s.

[/QUOTE] why is it vanity Tracky ? if the dosh is on the table go for it.Plus sprinters wont last for ever

 

[Holly]

... My advice is to consider Chester Crewe first (possibly giving shuttle duties to Northern or LM) and consider ... .

Or, better yet, Merseyrail who could then run a dual voltage Hooton to Chester to Crewe service.

Chester also needs an out-of-town parkway station with turnback platforms and electrified. Somewhere near Airbus would be good for rural North Wales.

 

[CallySleeper]

Would somebody please mind adding a URL to the Holyhead station plans?