How about starting a project (HS3?) for a high speed line between Holyhead and Cardiff that didn't cross the border into England at any point. What's the best guess at route and how many billions? Oh and passenger loading.
A better strategy would be see what old North South Lines could be reopened and whether the cost would ever add up.
I agree, a HSR would be overkill but it might be worth looking at a mix of reopened and (convential speed) new lines to link Wales north-south by rail.
I guess you probably could join some missing links to make a through north/south route but it probably wouldn't save any time compared to dragging out to England and down the Marches and it certainly wouldn't be transformational.
I partially agree. I doubt an internal Wales route would be much faster than the marches line for passengers going the full length of Wales from, say, Cardiff to Bangor, but a line through the middle of Wales certainly could be transformational for intermediate journeys, say Builth Wells to Porthmadog (or Holyhead).
The fact is that because of its geography Wales never really had a North coast - South coast railway route. Looking at what existed in the past the closest you could get by reistating old lines is still going to be Swansea-Carmarthen-Aberystwyth (reversal) - Cambrian coast (another reversal at Mach) - Afon Wen - Bangor. The route going up from Merthyr to Brecon would involve reversal at Brecon and at Moat Lane. Cardiff - Swansea District Line- Central Wales line- Builth Rd - Moat lane would only involve the reinstatement of that last section.
Looking at HS2, we see a north-south Y-Shaped HighSpeed 'network' for England. I say, how about a north-south Y-Shaped 'High Speed' 'network' for Wales, scaled down to reflect Wales' much smaller population. The key differences would be that the Welsh network would use sections of existing line (upgraded in many cases) and have a top speed of 90mph instead of over 200mph (operated by 2-car 158s instead of umpteen-car HighSpeed trains).
My proposal, gradients permitting, would be something like:
- Merthyr - Brecon (electrified as part of ValleyLines)
- Brecon - Builth Road (new alignment to around the half-way point)
- Builth Road - Rhayader (principally a reopened route)
- Rhayader - Llanidloes (new alignment, probably the most expensive part of the whole scheme)
- Llanidloes - Moat Lane (principally a reopened route, but with chords linking to both Newtown and Machynlleth at Moat Lane rather than a station)
- Welshpool - Gobowen via Oswestry (principally at reopened route)
- Dovey Junction - Porthmadog (heavily upgraded existing line)
- Porthmadog - Bryncir (all new route)
- Bryncir - Caernarfon - Bangor (principally a reopened route, if the north Wales line is electrified then so to would be Caernarfon - Bangor, perhaps with later extension to Llanberis)
Some of the 'principally reopened' routes would have to divert to skirt the edge of settlements where properties have been built on the former railway. The service would be fairly simple:
- Hourly/Half Hourly Cardiff - Brecon electric service
- Hourly Brecon - Newtown class 158 service, continuing alternately (to Wrexham via Oswestry in one hour, Bangor/Holyhead in the next)
- The existing every two hours Birmingham - Pwllheli class 158s would continue, and assuming the Aberystwyth - Birmingham hourly service is delivered, this makes the whole Cambrian hourly expect the Porthmadog - Pwllheli section
- Caernarfon - Llandudno/Crewe/Chester hourly service (which could be electric, as outlined above)
- Optional Newtown - Wrexham every two hours service to make the Welshpool - Wrexham route up to hourly as well
Carmarthen - Aberystwyth would be the next major Welsh new rail links project on my to-do-list, but if the promissed TrawsCymru bus service running hourly from 6am to 8pm does not matterialise I may have to move that new railway up my priority list. Neither scheme seems likely to go anywhere though, they are definately too optimistic to hold out much hope of them happening any time soon, but its nice to plan.
You would have the most severest gradients in the UK
What sort of gradients would be acceptable? Google Earth gives an avg. slope and Max slope for line placemarks, but I've no idea if figures like 10.7%, 5.6% or even 1.4% are suitable for railways. I don't really get gradients given as percentages at all.
In the case of Methyr - Brecon though, I wonder whether a Electrostar unit could be produced with the ability to operate as a rack-and-pinion train over a limited section of line and what this would increase the acceptable gradient to (and whether such a unit is at all practical)?
Carm - Aber does have a certain appeal. A few years ago the figure of £250m was being banded about.....sounds a bargain to me!
If £250m was quoted for Carmarthen - Aberystwyth I suspect that was for a simple reopenning, which WAG have rejected since (I think) the times at the time of clousure were slower than todays bus. Personally, I think things could be done a lot better today, Lampeter to Strata Florida (that vacinity, I don't know where the station was) looks pretty straight and hence could perhaps be built for 90mph capability, but the rest would need alot of straightening (including a tunnel towards the southern end) to make it worthwhile, which would add a lot of cost. The traffic in the morning into Aberystwyth is terrible though, so how about building a bus-only road (designed to be suitable for a rail alignment) from Llanfarian (where the worst of the traffic begins) into Aberystwyth on the understanding that, if a railway ever does arrive from Carmarthen, the buses will make way for the trains?
Swansea to Cardiff 25 mins or so, about half the current journey times and linking a lot of major conurbations that have tortuous services at present.
Since Swansea and Cardiff are really the only 'major conurbanations' that you mentioned, I'm going to pick up on this one. The CDF to Bridgend route is a rather twisty 20.2 miles Via Pontyclun and Pencoed and I sometimes find it rather tedious. It is also a rather busy section of line, so, if anyone ever decides it should be 4-tracked I'd say no. Instead, I'd put the extra two tracks in alright, but on a new, much more direct, formation from just west of St. Fagans most of the way to Bridgend (the present route would be retained for stoppers and freight). It probably wouldn't be a long enough distance to make it worth going to 125mph, but doing 100mph most of the way over a route 2 miles shorter than the present one might save nearly 10 minutes, probably at a much lower cost than a new HighSpeed line from Cardiff to Swansea.
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Sounds interesting, but the problem will be the mish mash of services and borders. If you take the rule of thumb that you need a half hourly service to warrant electrification then wiring the Holyhead line may come at the expense of most of the current services to Cardiff (being replaced with more to Crewe/ Manchester). Would certain people be prepared to accept that?
From various members of this fourm, it would seem that Holyhead - Cardiff trains aren't as well patronised along the marches as S. Wales - Manchester and trains running east-west along the north Wales coast. I also have my own concerns about the much needed hourly Cambrian main line service tying up more of Wales' class 158 fleet and further restricting diagramming. Therefore, in order to try and maximise diagraming flexibility (maintaining the number of 158s available away from the Cambrian and helping make the case for longer trains on busy services by limiting quieter runs on some diagrams and maximising busy runs on others), and improve the case for wiring the north Wales coast line without also wiring the marches, I would propose replacing the current service pattern with the following:
- Aberystwyth/Pwlheli - Birmingham - Wrexham - Chester (every two hours)
- Aberystwyth - Birmingham (every two hours)
- Chester - Wrexham - Cardiff (every two hours)
- Holyhead - Manchester Piccadilly (hourly)
- Llandudno - Crewe (hourly)
- Holyhead - Wrexham - Cardiff (two trains a day, each way) (express)
- Plus of course Intercity services from Euston to Holyhead/Bangor, and maybe throw in some Llandudno workings too.
Since the Llandudno - Crewe service would replace the current Crewe - Chester shuttle, this may free up a 150. If it does, I'd use it to run a stopper between Llandudno and Bangor/Holyhead. Then you could remove the request stops (other than Conwy, which to me seems too important to be only served by a 2-hourly service that only stops on request) from the Holyhead services.
not too far fetched
