Network Rails North Wales Plans

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the line will need to be shut when the re-doubling takes place and probably shut for quite a lengthy period and for Arriva Busses I would imagine that they have been asked to improve their service and bus environment for this purpose when alternative transport will need to be provided between Wrexham and Chester as so to keep the customers using an Arriva (DB) service vice a different one!

The bus is not really competing with rail.
On my journeys the traffic seems mainly intermediate (from Gresford, Rossett and Wrexham suburbs) to the end points and also Chester Business Park (near the A55).
There are not many end-to-end passengers.
The bus terminates opposite the station in Chester, but at the Wrexham end it uses the bus station which is a stiff 10min walk from Wrexham General.
It also takes the best part of an hour.

When the line closes for redoubling I would expect ATW to run a dedicated bus replacement service (and it might not be operated by Arriva!).

 

[Gareth Marston]

The bus is not really competing with rail.
On my journeys the traffic seems mainly intermediate (from Gresford, Rossett and Wrexham suburbs) to the end points and also Chester Business Park (near the A55).
There are not many end-to-end passengers.
The bus terminates opposite the station in Chester, but at the Wrexham end it uses the bus station which is a stiff 10min walk from Wrexham General.
It also takes the best part of an hour.

When the line closes for redoubling I would expect ATW to run a dedicated bus replacement service (and it might not be operated by Arriva!).

My best friends parents retired to Wrexham from Caersws and live on the Chester Road , Sandra loved the Nos 1 bus as it runs outside her door and she can use her bus pass to get into Chester/Wrexham and its a 10 min frequency.
Whilst the Nos 1 is great for local journeys a direct coach from Chester to Wrexham General will be better for passengers.

 

[merlodlliw]

The bus is not really competing with rail.
On my journeys the traffic seems mainly intermediate (from Gresford, Rossett and Wrexham suburbs) to the end points and also Chester Business Park (near the A55).
There are not many end-to-end passengers.
The bus terminates opposite the station in Chester, but at the Wrexham end it uses the bus station which is a stiff 10min walk from Wrexham General.
It also takes the best part of an hour.

When the line closes for redoubling I would expect ATW to run a dedicated bus replacement service (and it might not be operated by Arriva!).

Wrexham General to the Bus Station takes me five mins max.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My best friends parents retired to Wrexham from Caersws and live on the Chester Road , Sandra loved the Nos 1 bus as it runs outside her door and she can use her bus pass to get into Chester/Wrexham and its a 10 min frequency.
Whilst the Nos 1 is great for local journeys a direct coach from Chester to Wrexham General will be better for passengers.

Arriva bus have already pulled the plug on Wrexham General as a bus interchange,will this new service be semi fast? & will it take the Welsh Bus Passes. Route One Wrexham/Chester Station is the busiest bus route in North Wales, not surprised Arriva chose it

 

[Rhydgaled]

From a passenger and a revenue point of view it would certainly be better for NE Wales/NW Shropshire to have a direct link to Manchester. Chester-Warrington-Manchester is corridor that needs more seats and it has been suggested that one of the 6tph Trans Penine expresses post northern hub terminates at Chester in addition to the hourly ATW N Wales Coast trains via Warrington. Would extending this to Wrexham be an option i wonder? Wrexham has the platform capacity.

Are there enough paths for more ATW services from Chester (orriginating from Holyhead, Llandudno or Cardiff via Wrexham) into Manchester (either Victoria or Piccadilly)?

Instead of running a train from BNS to Holyhead/Llandudno run it to Manchester instead and then run the manchester Llandudno services through to Holyhead to compensate with a more robust shuttle from Llandudno Jct. to make up the loss. This way ATW will be connecting more of Wales to Manchester as it is as usual only the South of Wales that has a direct link. This in turn will give ATW a better unit diagram for the ETRTMS fitted 158's for the Cambrian. Only a though but I personally think this is better than the current hourly service from Wrexham up the coast and ATW will still be fulfilling their franchise agreement..

Sorry I don't understand, are you suggesting ATW run Birmingham to Manchester services? That's even further from being in Wales than Crewe-Chester/Shrewsbury (unless you mean Birmingham to Manchester via Wrexham) Also it isn't just the south of Wales that has a direct link to Manchester as part of North Wales has the Llandudno - Manchester service of course. Could you set out your suggestion by route please, eg.:

• Hourly Holyhead - Manchester service
• Hourly Llandudno - Crewe service
• Hourly Birmingham - Aberystwyth service, with a portion for Pwllheli every two hours and Chester (via Wrexham) in the other hours
• 2-Hourly Chester - Wrexham - Cardiff service

It will be over by 2100, so you could connect with a Chester/Manchester service, the station is only a couple of minutes walk from Wrexham General as you walk out of the station frontage,turn left & St Marys is visible is on the other side of the road

Thanks. If I can make the 21:02 off Wrexham to Chester I might be able to come along (that's not a definate though). Is the 17:14 Altringham to Chester likely to be busy? I'm wondering if I should try and get a reservation if I can attend the talk.

If you can not attend Ill ask your question.

Thanks again. Mark2s would be so much more appropriate for long distances than 150s.

 

[northwichcat]

it has been suggested that one of the 6tph Trans Penine expresses post northern hub terminates at Chester in addition to the hourly ATW N Wales Coast trains via Warrington.

That idea is effectively dead in the water following the TPE electrification announcement, which came after 6tph was proposed on North TPE.

The new service is now set to be a Chester to Manchester Airport stopper with the North Wales services diverted to Victoria missing out stations like Helsby and Frodsham in the off-peak. There's also proposals for a through service from Leeds to Llandudno via Bradford but who would run that and what rolling stock they would use remains to be seen.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's also this mysterious "Chester Journey Time Improvements" in the Northern Hub plan (mentioned in the CP5 documents for 2018).
This appears to be NR infrastructure changes.
The route has never been a fast one (75mph) and has a 40mph restriction through Helsby. It has some old structures, and speed increases may not be easy.
The approach to Chester from Warrington is approach controlled and very slow.
At Warrington every Manchester-bound train slows to a crawl until the signal into P4 clears, even though the turnout itself is a decent 50mph.
These days Chester trains seem to be using P2 and the main line out of Warrington, but they can be switched to P1 and the slow line with another crawl out to Walton New Jn.
Capacity-wise there can't be a problem west of Warrington, but the Chat Moss route and Manchester approaches might be problematic.

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks. If I can make the 21:02 off Wrexham to Chester I might be able to come along (that's not a definate though). Is the 17:14 Altringham to Chester likely to be busy? I'm wondering if I should try and get a reservation if I can attend the talk.Rhydgaled

Yes it will be very busy to Northwich. Wrexham General is only two minutes away, the meeting should be well over by 2100, if you attend Ill get the Chair to let you ask questions first
due to the distance you will have travelled. Otherwise ill ask your questions.
Bob

 

[northwichcat]

Is the 17:14 Altringham to Chester likely to be busy? I'm wondering if I should try and get a reservation if I can attend the talk.

You mean Altrincham.

The answer is actually no surprisingly and Northern don't offer reservations anyway.

The 16:46 departure from Altrincham (142 booked) loads about 130-140. The 17:14 (150 booked) loads about 50-60 and the 17:35 (142 booked) loads slightly less than the 16:46.

The timings and service pattern of the peak services on the Mid-Cheshire line don't meet demand and the services that get booked as a 156 aren't the busiest.

The one to avoid is the 07:17 Manchester-Chester on a weekday. That's booked as a single 150 and loads around 250 on a school day. If a Pacer turns up instead - a lot of people have to wait an hour for the next train.

One thing to note though is the 16:58 Stockport-Chester is one of Northern's favourite services to cancel if there is a train or crew shortage.

 

[merlodlliw]

Building starts on 83 bed premier inn next to Wrexham General plus other outlets. At last the old Esso garage is demolished which was an eyesaw on leaving the station. The story was in yesterdays Wrexham Leader, I have put it up for interest here http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/120424/wine-store-and-caf-plan-for-site-of-new-wrexham-hotel.aspx

The header reads. Published date: 28 February 2013 | Published by: Lois Hough

"AMBITIOUS plans to redevelop a gateway to Wrexham have taken a radical step forward.

Work to construct a four-storey, 83-bed Premier Inn hotel on the former Jacques Yard site off Regent Street will be completed in the autumn.

Now developers want to build a Majestic Wine Warehouse and a café, bakery or sandwich takeaway on the nearby former Esso garage."

I hope the food outlets dont knock Wrexham Generals excellent Dot to Dot station Cafe.

 

[The Informer]

That cafe really is superb!!!
The once empty WSMR offices next door will soon have occupants again!

 

[merlodlliw]

That cafe really is superb!!!
The once empty WSMR offices next door will soon have occupants again!

My guesswork.

1.Nat Rail moving in for the dual track
2.ORR are moving their Wrexham offices
3.Contractors moving in for the dual track


Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Building starts on 83 bed premier inn next to Wrexham General plus other outlets. At last the old Esso garage is demolished which was an eyesaw on leaving the station. The story was in yesterdays Wrexham Leader, I have put it up for interest here http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/120424/wine-store-and-caf-plan-for-site-of-new-wrexham-hotel.aspx

The header reads. Published date: 28 February 2013 | Published by: Lois Hough

"AMBITIOUS plans to redevelop a gateway to Wrexham have taken a radical step forward.

Work to construct a four-storey, 83-bed Premier Inn hotel on the former Jacques Yard site off Regent Street will be completed in the autumn.

Now developers want to build a Majestic Wine Warehouse and a café, bakery or sandwich takeaway on the nearby former Esso garage."

I hope the food outlets dont knock Wrexham Generals excellent Dot to Dot station Cafe.

In other hotels near railway stations news in Shrewsbury the new Premier Inn about 5 mins walk right next to bus station is near opening and plans have been put forward to turn the old goal next to the station into a hotel now the last inmates have been moved out. Interestingly there is speculation as to how many remains of executed prisoners will have to be exhumed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes it will be very busy to Northwich. Wrexham General is only two minutes away, the meeting should be well over by 2100, if you attend Ill get the Chair to let you ask questions first
due to the distance you will have travelled. Otherwise ill ask your questions.
Bob

Thanks again. I still don't know for sure whether I'll make it.

You mean Altrincham.

Yes, sorry my spelling's one of my weaker points.

Northern don't offer reservations anyway.

Really? Just on that route or at all?

Mind you, speaking of not offering reservations, I'm not sure there's not much point ATW bothering to offer them on the Cambrian line. Today we had two seats reserved, forward-facing with table, from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth in coach A. On the train's arrival at Shrewsbury, I noticed a paper sign in one of the doors of the Cambrian Coast portion saying that was coach A. Not looking good I thought. Anyway, we boarded the Aberystwyth portion, found the reseverations in that coach were not labled coach A and walked through into the other coach for Aberystwyth. Here we found that the reservations were labeled coach A, so we found what I think were the numbers on our orange reservation tickets but the white said reserved from Birmingham, not Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth. Luckily we found unreserved forward-facing table seats further down the carriage. Did the system give us reservations in the wrong portion of the train, are the seats at tables given four different numbers (and if not, were our reservations put facing what would have been forwards on the Birmingham - Shrewsbury leg) or were our reservations simply not anywhere? I made a comment to the guard who said reservations aren't handled by the TOCs, therefore I'm guessing it is ATOC (under the National Rail brand) that is responsible?

Is the reservation system capable of handling things like reversals and portion working?

---------------------------------------------------------
Returning to the matter of Wrexham area rail services, does the track layout in the Wrexham General area allow for the following moves?:

• Borderlands Line - Shrewsbury
• Shrewsbury - Borderlands Line
• Chester - Wrexham Central
• Wrexham Central - Chester

Additionally, are there any 'cuircular' rail services anywhere? I wonder if there would be any merit in Crewe-Crewe stopping services running Crewe - Shrewsbury - Wrexham - Chester - Crewe and vice-versa?

 

[krus_aragon]

Returning to the matter of Wrexham area rail services, does the track layout in the Wrexham General area allow for the following moves?:

Shrewsbury-Borderlands and Borderlands-Shrewsbury are practical running through platform 3. There are a number of freight services that go this way to get to the Hawarden Bridge area. Chester-Central or the opposite would require two reversals. I don't believe that the redoubling north of Wrexham will change this.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, sorry my spelling's one of my weaker points.

For some reason GHA Coaches actually used the same incorrect spelling on their website when they started serving Altrincham.

Really? Just on that route or at all?

None at all AFAIK. With the way Northern use their rolling stock seat reservations would be difficult. The 142s and original interior 150s have no seat numbers and would have no where to put reservation tickets with a lot of Northern's routes see one or other of them.

 

[TDK]

• Hourly Holyhead - Manchester service
• Hourly Llandudno - Crewe service
• Hourly Birmingham - Aberystwyth service, with a portion for Pwllheli every two hours and Chester (via Wrexham) in the other hours
• 2-Hourly Chester - Wrexham - Cardiff service

.

I would suggest:

bi hourly Birmingham International - Manchester via Wrexham (with a connection at Chester for a HHD service (from Manchester)

Bi hourly Cardiff to HHD via Wrexham

Bi hourly Manchester to HHD connecting with the Birmingham - Manchester service

Bi Hourly Manchester to Llandudno

Shuttle from Llandiudno Jct to Llandudno to fill including all the Blaenau to continue to Llandudno.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

---------------------------------------------------------
Returning to the matter of Wrexham area rail services, does the track layout in the Wrexham General area allow for the following moves?:

• Borderlands Line - Shrewsbury
• Shrewsbury - Borderlands Line
• Chester - Wrexham Central
• Wrexham Central - Chester

Additionally, are there any 'cuircular' rail services anywhere? I wonder if there would be any merit in Crewe-Crewe stopping services running Crewe - Shrewsbury - Wrexham - Chester - Crewe and vice-versa?

Borderlands - Shrewsbury - YES
Shrewsbury - Borderlands - YES
Chester to Wrexham central - NO
Wrexham Central to Chester - NO

I have always thought that a Crewe - Crewe service vice the Crewe - Shrewsbury Local service would be an excellent idea and knock the Crewe _ Salop local on the head completely using the circular service, hopefully the capacity will be there after the redoubling, this will have the addition of a Wrexham Crewe direct service and this lacking at the moment with no relaistic connection at Chester to get to Crewe. The other thing is also stock as well as ATW just do not have enough units unless they get a cascade for the stock.

Another idea would be to run trains to Leeds or Blackpool on an open access scenario using the soon defunct TPE stock once the lines become electrified however it is all down to the ORR, money and availability of stock.

All ideas that will most likely not work

 

[Rhydgaled]

A short-notice change of plans means I am unable to clock up enough hours work to leave early enough to get to Wrexham, so I'll have to take up merlodlliw's kind offer to ask questions on my behalf. I'll pm merlodlliw with some questions.

I would suggest:

bi hourly Birmingham International - Manchester via Wrexham (with a connection at Chester for a HHD service (from Manchester)

Bi hourly Cardiff to HHD via Wrexham

Bi hourly Manchester to HHD connecting with the Birmingham - Manchester service

Bi Hourly Manchester to Llandudno

Shuttle from Llandiudno Jct to Llandudno to fill including all the Blaenau to continue to Llandudno.

Assuming bi-hourly is what I call 2-hourly (ie. every two hours), did you mean to suggest a three trains per two hours Welsh service between Chester and Manchester?

I attempted to invent a rough timetable with trains every hour from Holyhead, alternating between Crewe and Manchester, with Llandudno having a similar service, but couldn't keep the intervals Llandudno/Holyhead - Llandudno Junction and Chester-Crewe/Manchester at clockface hourly AND the intervals between Llandudno Junction - Chester half-hourly. Hence, to keep the north Wales line free of Wrexham/Shrewsbury/Cardiff/Birmingham services to permit electrification and keep down the number of ERTMS-tied 158 diagrams I was forced to settle for hourly services Llandudno - Crewe and Holyhead - Manchester, with trains north from Wrexham terminating at Chester.

I have always thought that a Crewe - Crewe service vice the Crewe - Shrewsbury Local service would be an excellent idea and knock the Crewe _ Salop local on the head completely using the circular service, hopefully the capacity will be there after the redoubling, this will have the addition of a Wrexham Crewe direct service and this lacking at the moment with no relaistic connection at Chester to get to Crewe.

If Crewe-Crewe wouldn't work, an alternative idea might be to make the Cardiff - Holyhead 2-hourly service (Cardiff - Chester in my book) into Cardiff - Wrexham - Chester - Crewe.

 

[The Planner]

Why the obsession with fixed hourly or half hourly? Nothing wrong with odd intervals if they repeat across the day.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Why the obsession with fixed hourly or half hourly? Nothing wrong with odd intervals if they repeat across the day.

I've tried to figure out a timetable for S.W.Wales featuring a Pembroke Dock train every 90mins (since that seems to fit quite well with the single passing loop) but fitting that round hourly/2-hourly/half-hourly services seems a bit awkward. It also doesn't provide a memorable 'same-minutes past the hour' timetable, it alternates between a train at xx:xx and one at xx:xx+30.

Since your username is 'The Planner', do you know any useful timetabling tricks/techniques which could help me round things like a 1hr30min interval Pembroke Dock service?

 

[ivanhoe]

Bidston-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Crewe-Runcorn-Lime Street. Not quite circular but I liked the Old Central Trains Long distance stoppers and this has possibilities . Lack of stock means that this is just a dream.

 

[TDK]

Why the obsession with fixed hourly or half hourly? Nothing wrong with odd intervals if they repeat across the day.

ATW have what they call a standard pattern timetable that they brought in I think in 2004 and try to run trains at the same times past the hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

did you mean to suggest a three trains per two hours Welsh service between Chester and Manchester?

These trains do not start at Manchester so it is still assisting the people of Wales getting to Manchester,

 

[YorkshireBear]

ATW have what they call a standard pattern timetable that they brought in I think in 2004 and try to run trains at the same times past the hour.

Yep and it proved hugely popular with customers.

 

[cle]

Clockface and hourly works. Random timetables are antiquated and only really of use on very sporadic services, like the Heart of Wales or Far North lines.

Even the two-hourly Birmingham/Cardiff split I find a bit silly. People are creatures of habit, don't like surprises with their travel, 99% are not rail nuts like us and Operation Princess showed that this regularity increases patronage, with all the associated benefits.

 

[The Planner]

Operation Princess showed that this regularity increases patronage, with all the associated benefits.

Though plenty in the industry consider the implementation of Princess to be an utter disaster!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Since your username is 'The Planner', do you know any useful timetabling tricks/techniques which could help me round things like a 1hr30min interval Pembroke Dock service?

It may be physically impossible to do without an infrastructure intervention.

It is a difficult task to do without the correct tools so there are no real tricks or techniques that are employed. You would need a complete list of the sectional running times, the timetable planning rules, a WTT and graph paper to make a stab at it. Then once you see the bigger picture you can see what is stopping a standard interval.

 

[cle]

Note I didn't say Operation Princess was a success in every way! But it proved (and VHF too) that people like predictable, regular services. Frequency too.

And modern trains!

Personally I think our Cross Country network is a little less romantic, less inter city and more regional, and a bit generic/formulaic, but it is overall in better shape for most people (still on it) than under BR - when it was random, underused, expensive and tangential.

 

[HSTEd]

Didn't the Swiss Federal Railways go almost entirely to a clockface timetable for everything a couple of years back?

 

[Gareth Marston]

North Wales Coast had so many destinations because there were mere handfuls a day of them that could fit it. Trying to get clockface even 2 hrly as people keep trying ends in over provision or compromise. Some tough choices need to be made as they say most notably latent demand from Wrexham for services to Manchester.

As I said before the real danger is that an hourly Holyhead to Cardiff service will be imposed.

Personally i would favor

2 hrly Holyhead to Euston
2 hrly Holyhead to Birmighmam via Crewe.
Hourly Llandudno-Manchester (possibly with the odd Bangor portion) that joins up with a service from Wrexham at Chester to provide extra capacity from Chester into Manchester.

Provision for 3/4 North to South trains a day.

 

[themiller]

Didn't the Swiss Federal Railways go almost entirely to a clockface timetable for everything a couple of years back?

Yes. That was one of the drivers behind Bahn 2000. It does work very well but I have been stuck at Visp for over an hour when a travelling companion assumed the timetable was hourly northward through the Loetschberg base tunnel to Bern when it was alternate hours. It gave the opportunity to watch some interesting movements on the main line and the MGB!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yep and it proved hugely popular with customers.

look at the pigs ear at Church Stretton and craven Arms now though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For anybody wanting more information on the Wrexham-Chester redoubling, there is a fantastically detailed report on the Welsh Government web site:
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/policy/120119northsouthreport.pdf
This is a joint report by consultants and Network Rail for the WG.
It's rather obscurely in the "North-South Wales Journey Time Improvements" project.
I was pointed to it by an ATW guy at tonight's meeting in Wrexham.

Looks like all but 2.5 miles Rossett-Gresford will be doubled, with a 90mph linespeed (75 over the remaining single section and through the new junctions at Rosset and Gresford).
Saltney Junction itself will also be doubled. No changes at Wrexham itself.

Apparently Shrewsbury-Gobowen linespeed improvements start later this year, with Wrexham-Chester finished by 2015.
Some construction closures are needed, as you would expect.
A snip at c£48million (£36m for the redoubling, £10m for Salop-Gobowen 90mph and £2m for signalling changes on Anglesey).