InterCity West Coast Bidders

[GatwickDepress]

You really do not like Virgin Trains do you? I signed that petition for Virgin to keep the west coast when they lost it.

No TOC is perfect they all have problems.... Who's your perfect TOC then?

Yes I've witnessed some Virgin Trains staff being rude to customers and most of the time I've used Virgin my ticket hasn't been checked, but they do tend to do ticket checks when boarding at Euston so it does seam pointless to do a ticket check as soon as the train departs.

Yesterday I had a perfectly valid ticket for a VTWC service denied at the manual barrier at Euston and this isn't the first or even second time it has happened this year.

I find Virgin to be a bunch of cowboys when it comes to basic things such as even knowing of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and understanding ticket validity.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Or why not a quality airline? In conjunction with a train operator maybe? (When XC was first privatised in 1996, I am fairly sure that BA were part of a bid).

If bus companies could bid to run trains, I am fairly confident that an airline could!

Hmm, an airline company eh? I suppose so, considering Virgin also run three airlines (though obviously separate companies from Virgin Trains and Virgin Trains East Coast). I would certainly like to see a train company ran by British Airways (or the people who own it), or imagine Emirates bidding for a railway franchise?! That would the epitome of luxury railway travel!

 

[Mordac]

Still cannot take them seriously with all their bluster until they actually order some rolling stock and take delivery of it.

Agreed, especially since their ECML bid got shotdown. Can't see the economics working for such a micro-fleet of tilting stock.

 

[3141]

Here are my speculations about who might bid for ICWC.

1) a combination of Virgin and Stagecoach. But
a) maybe there’ll come a time when Richard Branson loses interest in rail franchises; and b) Stagecoach appears to be having problems on East Coast, so might prefer to go all out to retain South Western, rather than take on West Coast which will be hugely affected by HS2 construction.

On the other hand, if Richard Branson would like to run HS2, he might wish to stay in the railway business in the meantime by trying to keep West Coast.

2) First. They nearly got it in 2012. Maybe they’ll have another go. But
a) they may have realised what problems they would have encountered by now if they had been running it since 2012, and therefore hold back, thinking that
b) they’d really prefer to retain Greater Western when that is finally tendered, and
c) if they win South Western in 2017 they’ll have a big franchise to run and not need West Coast as well.

3) National Express. Why wouldn’t they have a go? Because
a) the only intercity franchise they’ve run successfully was Midland Mainline, which was a much smaller operation; and
b) they had an awful time at East Coast.

But that wouldn’t necessarily stop them.

4) DB/Arriva. The end is in sight at Wales and Borders and Cross Country, and in the past Arriva have bid for other inter city operations. But maybe they’d conclude that they’ve got their work cut out at Northern.

5) Keolis Perhaps jointly with Eurostar, as in their bid for East Coast. Probably not with Go Ahead, even if Keolis was the major partner, since Go Ahead don’t have experience of long distance express operations and are having quite enough problems of their own at the moment.

6) Abellio. Probably not. No experience of a major inter city franchise, and they’ve got plenty to do at Scotrail and Greater Anglia.

7) Trenitalia. It would be a bold move. Surely they’d need a partner with some experience of British railway operations.

My money, for what it’s worth – which is very little – would be on (1) above, plus one or two out of (2), (3), (4) and (5).

 

[Harbornite]

What about MTR? Somehow I don't think they'll bid, let alone win.

 

[yorkie]

Yesterday I had a perfectly valid ticket for a VTWC service denied at the manual barrier at Euston and this isn't the first or even second time it has happened this year. .

They're second only to the infamous platform 13/14 gateline staff at Victoria for refusing to accept valid tickets. It's been going on for years now. When are they ever going to behave?!

Sadly Virgin they know the DfT don't care about such franchise breaches when awarding franchises...

 

[F Great Eastern]

I see what you're saying but other than politely asking them to move there's not a lot they can do. One can't manhandle them. You could call the BTP and delay the train for it, but I can hear the resounding thunk of the resulting 'please explain ' hitting someone's pigeonhole from here!

If I booked a table seat, to work, and I don't get one and I cannot work, they should either upgrade me to First Class at their expense, move the person, or refund me the ticket, when you are on a 2-3 hour journey and you cannot work because of the fact it isn't funny. It's especially idiotic when in a lot of cases the person who is sitting in my seat's own non table seat is empty and they ignored many spare seats because they were determined to take a table seat that someone else reserved.

Simply shrugging our shoulders and saying that it's not our problem is a disgrace. The fact that so many times I've had a passenger sitting in my seat who didn't move, happens a lot more on VTWC services, out of the last 6 trips it's happened four times to me, it's little wonder if the passengers don't bother moving if they know the staff won't bother doing anything. It's defiance of authority and the respectful rule adhering passengers like me shouldn't lose out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the problem on VTWC is that there are only sockets at tables. The new franchisee really needs to retrofit at all seats.

 

[J-2739]

What about MTR? Somehow I don't think they'll bid, let alone win.

MTR probably most likely would go for more 'commuter' franchise, I feel.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It is not my problem that the sockets are not at non table seats. I booked a table seat which has a socket, the seat exists and I cannot avail of it that is a TOC problem and they should resolve that one way or another.

It has rarely happened on other TOC's, but when it does the TM has always been more than helpful in Virgin they just didn't seem to care, one TM offered to sell me an upgrade which was a complete insult.

 

[Harbornite]

MTR probably most likely would go for more 'commuter' franchise, I feel.

I think you're right.

 

[BigCj34]

Ryanair West Coast!

That'd be amazing. In seriousness, I'd like to see a budget WCML service similar to OuiGo. I know First are kind of launching an east coast service, so a West Coast budget service that's still faster than the Megabus would be neat. It might take away the market share for London to Scotland flights!

 

[Class 170101]

6) Abellio. Probably not. No experience of a major inter city franchise, and they’ve got plenty to do at Scotrail and Greater Anglia.

Competition issues if they win the West Midlands franchise. The DfT has inserted a comment about its concern regarding investigations of the Competition Commission.

 

[JaJaWa]

MTR probably most likely would go for more 'commuter' franchise, I feel.

MTR run MTR Express open-access services in Europe. They could use a similar brand: https://mtrexpress.se/en.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That'd be amazing. In seriousness, I'd like to see a budget WCML service similar to OuiGo. I know First are kind of launching an east coast service, so a West Coast budget service that's still faster than the Megabus would be neat. It might take away the market share for London to Scotland flights!

No paths, at least while Euston is rebuilt for HS2.

 

[najaB]

If I booked a table seat, to work, and I don't get one and I cannot work, they should either upgrade me to First Class at their expense, move the person, or refund me the ticket...

You'd be pretty much guaranteed a table seat of you paid for a first class ticket. Just saying...

 

[Polarbear]

No paths, at least while Euston is rebuilt for HS2.

Possibly not into Euston, but using Ouigo as an example, they don't use the main Paris terminal stations (Mickey Mouse Parkway being the gateway to Paris).

Nothing to stop a budget style operator running to & from another station such as Queens Park or Harrow & Wealdstone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd be pretty much guaranteed a table seat of you paid for a first class ticket. Just saying...

You should also be guaranteed one if you reserve one, barring something like a Pendolino<->Voyager swap. It requires more stringent on-board enforcement, that's all.

There used to be a fixed penalty for refusing to vacate a reserved seat. Just need a few of those imposing pour encourager les autres. If any other TOC needs lessons on Byelaw enforcement I'm sure the grey and yellow mob up in the North West will be happy to advise.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nothing to stop a budget style operator running to & from another station such as Queens Park or Harrow & Wealdstone?

Line capacity, mostly, as there is no bay. In the old days Kenny O would have done, but of course that's chock-full of LO trains these days.

Old Oak Common may be an option if it's built with spare capacity.

 

[najaB]

There used to be a fixed penalty for refusing to vacate a reserved seat.

It still is a Byelaw offence. But, rightly or wrongly, TOCs take the view that it's not worth the time, hassle or potential abuse of staff to do anything more than light-touch enforcement.

 

[ejstubbs]

It has rarely happened on other TOC's, but when it does the TM has always been more than helpful in Virgin they just didn't seem to care, one TM offered to sell me an upgrade which was a complete insult.

Do you write/e-mail Virgin to complain each time this happens?

If you have and they've failed to respond adequately then you can take your complaint to Transport Focus for further arbitration. If they find against Virgin then there's a faint chance that Virgin might buck their ideas up.

http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/advice-and-complaints/complaining-about-your-train-journey/

Grumbling on a web forum is not the best way to get a company to step up to the mark if they're failing their customers. (Facebook and/or Twitter may be more effective, if you can be bothered to work out how to use them.)

 

[F Great Eastern]

I just felt that I, the person who booked a seat, should not have to pay for an upgrade to get the product I paid for and chose and the person gets a table seat that they didn't reserve, it's punishing the wrong person, the upgrade should be free if they do not address it directly.

I did complain to Virgin and I was told on one occasion that seats cannot be guaranteed but they will do their very best to ensure reservations were upheld and since it was a busy service, unfortunately it is not always practical for a train manager to get involved as they have safety critical roles to perform and cannot get involved in disputes between passengers and that is a job for the BTP.

If it's a Pendolino or Voyager swap and the seats don't match up, fair enough, it's caused by some technical issue, I have no issue with that, but if the seat is there I should have it and if the TM won't allow that to happen then I should be compensated for it.

 

[najaB]

I just felt that I, the person who booked a seat, should not have to pay for an upgrade to get the product I paid for...

As far as I'm aware, the product you paid for was transportation between the stations listed on your ticket.

 

[lincolnshire]

As far as I'm aware, the product you paid for was transportation between the stations listed on your ticket.

Once upon a time you paid for a seat reservation, but is that now another reason that they are free because if the seat was taken by someone else who refused to move then the person paying for the seat reservation would now be taking the TOC to court over it. So let them have it for free and if the seat is occupied by someone who will not move its tuff luck.

 

[ainsworth74]

Once upon a time you paid for a seat reservation, but is that now another reason that they are free because if the seat was taken by someone else who refused to move then the person paying for the seat reservation would now be taking the TOC to court over it. So let them have it for free and if the seat is occupied by someone who will not move its tuff luck.

Nonsense. The NRCoC deal with issues with seat reservations:

40. Reserving seats

Seats in some trains can be reserved before you travel and you may have to pay a fee. Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat for your journey. You must have a valid ticket for your journey before reserving a seat. Each ticket allows you to reserve no more than one seat per person for each part of your journey.

41. Refund of reservation fees

If a seat reservation, sleeper reservation or cycle reservation is not honoured, the Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid. If the Train Company is unable to provide alternative equivalent accommodation for you or your cycle, you will be compensated for the inconvenience. The value of the compensation will be no more than the price of the full single fare for the journey. If you are unable or have decided not to travel you will be entitled to claim a refund under Condition 26 for the relevant part of your journey.

To be eligible to receive this compensation you must make a claim to the Train Company within 28 days of completing the relevant journey, stating the timetable departure time of the train or trains you used, or intended to use, for the journey. When you make your claim you must provide a ticket (or other authority to travel) which was valid for the journey.

Considering the contract lays out quite clearly what compensation you would receive in the event of a seat reservation not being honoured I don't see on what grounds you could take court action. You'd be entitled to a full refund of the fee and potentially compensation on top of that!

 

[Bletchleyite]

An interesting point there, perhaps for legal challenge, is the definition of "equivalent". An airline seat is clearly not "equivalent" to a table, nor is one without power "equivalent" to one with. I suspect it means "in the same class", but that isn't what it says.


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[HH]

An interesting point there, perhaps for legal challenge, is the definition of "equivalent". An airline seat is clearly not "equivalent" to a table, nor is one without power "equivalent" to one with. I suspect it means "in the same class", but that isn't what it says.

That's one for 'my learned friend' to argue... at huge cost.

 

[KashmireHawker]

November has hit so ITT and Bidder announcements (If the schedule is right) will be put out there any time soon. There might be a twist in the tail however, with closer links to HS2 than many think...

http://www.theweek.co.uk/hs2/55781/...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

November has hit so ITT and Bidder announcements (If the schedule is right) will be put out there any time soon. There might be a twist in the tail however, with closer links to HS2 than many think...
http://www.theweek.co.uk/hs2/55781/...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

That was the gist of Roger Ford's article in November Modern Railways.
Plus the feeling that all the initial HS2 rolling stock would be classic-compatible.
If the WC franchise is 10 years (2018-28), that gives only 2 years of HS2 operation, which doesn't seem enough to gauge its impact.
It will be a particularly hard ITT to write, predicting both WCML and HS2 business 8+ years out.

 

[The Planner]

Don't think it will just be the initial either, I think it will be CC all the way for HS2.

 

[The Ham]

Don't think it will just be the initial either, I think it will be CC all the way for HS2.

I can see some advantages, at least for the first years of operation, of having only CC stock.

However, there could be a point when in 30 years from now when CC stock is too new to scrap but is too overcrowded to use in HS2 and isn't long enough (being 200m vs 240/260m) to use solely on the classic routes.

There is also the potential cost, in that in theory the CC stock will be a custom build which could be justified for the first batch of trains, however the second batch could be 5 to 10 years later (meaning a follow on order may not be possible). As such it could either mean an off the peg captive stock order or paying over the odds for small(ish) batch of CC trains.

Of course it all depends on when each section becomes useable and what fire future routes are coming forward. As if a HS line to Scotland and Liverpool are in the pipeline then there would be more justification in buying more captive stock as the number of services which extend beyond the HS routes would start to fall.