InterCity West Coast Bidders

[Joe Paxton]

There is a ridiculous belief on the forum that 'the DfT forgot to specify a neutral livery in the current East Coast franchise'

Aha, OK. Yes, like you say, ridiculous. But internet forums have their tendancies to perpetuate such beliefs, absent of any evidence.

 

[gavin]

Here's what the RMT have had to say

"RMT responds to news that Virgin and Stagecoach are hooking up with French state in land-grab for new HS2/West Coast franchise.

General Secretary Mick Cash said ;

This is yet another land grab on Britain's railways by the French state with SNCF and Richard Branson both realising that this new franchise will be a one way ticket to the bank for whoever comes out on top in this latest UK rail lottery.

The integrated HS2/West Coast operation has been bought and paid for by the British people and should be run by the British state in the public interest and not by some consortium of speculators looking to make a killing at the taxpayers expense."

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/virgin-and-stagecoach-hook-up-with-french-state-over-hs2/

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your Germanophile tendancies are showing again Neil!

That they might be, but DB is much closer to the way we operate our railway (regular intervals, walk-up fares, attempting to provided capacity to meet demand rather than primarily regulating demand through fares/reservation requirements) than any of the Romance railways.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Here's what the RMT have had to say

"RMT responds to news that Virgin and Stagecoach are hooking up with French state in land-grab for new HS2/West Coast franchise.

General Secretary Mick Cash said ;

This is yet another land grab on Britain's railways by the French state with SNCF and Richard Branson both realising that this new franchise will be a one way ticket to the bank for whoever comes out on top in this latest UK rail lottery.

The integrated HS2/West Coast operation has been bought and paid for by the British people and should be run by the British state in the public interest and not by some consortium of speculators looking to make a killing at the taxpayers expense."

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/virgin-and-stagecoach-hook-up-with-french-state-over-hs2/

Well at least SNCF are a railway company, as opposed to a bus company and a record company

 

[Joe Paxton]

Well at least SNCF are a railway company, as opposed to a bus company and a record company

Airline company too, though I'd really put Virgin as a whole down as a branding, ethos and customer experience company.

(And 49% shareholder Delta seems to more or less control the airline these days.)

 

[AlterEgo]

Here's what the RMT have had to say

"RMT responds to news that Virgin and Stagecoach are hooking up with French state in land-grab for new HS2/West Coast franchise.

General Secretary Mick Cash said ;

This is yet another land grab on Britain's railways by the French state with SNCF and Richard Branson both realising that this new franchise will be a one way ticket to the bank for whoever comes out on top in this latest UK rail lottery.

The integrated HS2/West Coast operation has been bought and paid for by the British people and should be run by the British state in the public interest and not by some consortium of speculators looking to make a killing at the taxpayers expense."

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/virgin-and-stagecoach-hook-up-with-french-state-over-hs2/

The RMT want the railways run by the Tories.

Interestingly stupid and baffling rhetoric as usual.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Airline company too, though I'd really put Virgin as a whole down as a branding, ethos and customer experience company.

(And 49% shareholder Delta seems to more or less control the airline these days.)

well yes, but they were originally a record company

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The RMT want the railways run by the Tories.
Interestingly stupid and baffling rhetoric as usual.

West Coast and HS2 will be run to a specification laid down by DfT, with trains specified and purchased by DfT's HS2 Ltd, and doesn't involve any "land grab" of any kind.
What is it about Mick Cash that he scorns any outside investment in the UK?
Does he object to Ford or Microsoft owning UK factories/businesses?
Which UK state body has experience of running high-speed railways (or even low-speed railways, bar TfL)?

 

[tbtc]

There is a ridiculous belief on the forum that 'the DfT forgot to specify a neutral livery in the current East Coast franchise'

Mainly perpetuated by people who want to believe that it is true - some TOCs have used corporate branding, some TOCs haven't - about the only difference in recent years is that First moved to corporate livery (e.g. First North Western were blue and gold for a while before everything had to be pink/purple)... then away from a corporate livery (which reflects some of their bus operation).

So, my understanding is that branding must be neutral unless it is shown to have a notable net positive effect on customer experience OWTTE.

ie: People quite like Virgin's brand, so they're allowed to slap it all over their trains and stations. No one likes GTR, so everything has to be muted.

Who gets to decide on whether a brand has a "net positive effect" (or equivalent)?

If a new entrant to the market comes along, is there an assessment about whether enough of the public like their brand?

What if their corporate reputation changes - do they have to rebrand the trains into a neutral scheme?

How would this even work?

Here's what the RMT have had to say

"RMT responds to news that Virgin and Stagecoach are hooking up with French state in land-grab for new HS2/West Coast franchise.

General Secretary Mick Cash said ;

This is yet another land grab on Britain's railways by the French state with SNCF and Richard Branson both realising that this new franchise will be a one way ticket to the bank for whoever comes out on top in this latest UK rail lottery.

The integrated HS2/West Coast operation has been bought and paid for by the British people and should be run by the British state in the public interest and not by some consortium of speculators looking to make a killing at the taxpayers expense."

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/virgin-and-stagecoach-hook-up-with-french-state-over-hs2/

Does anyone else play RMT-bingo?

Some hyperbole about "making a killing", a complaint about foreigners, reference to a "lottery"...

... it's as predictable as it is embarrassing.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
Which UK state body has experience of running high-speed railways (or even low-speed railways, bar TfL)?

Arguably Network Rail, well sort of.

 

[3141]

Does anyone else play RMT-bingo?

Some hyperbole about "making a killing", a complaint about foreigners, reference to a "lottery"...

... it's as predictable as it is embarrassing.

There's also "land grab".

And perhaps "hooking up" is intended to imply something to do with commercial sex, though that may be a bit too subtle.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Arguably Network Rail, well sort of.

Yes, but they are not really a commercial train operator, are they.
And not really nationalised in Mick Cash's sense (ie union dominated).

The part NR plays in HS2 has yet to be determined.
For HS1, Railtrack was initially used as a money-pot to fund it, and NR maintain it under contract, but it is not a normal NR/ORR regulatory situation.
The underlying licencing/ownership is quite different to ex-BR lines.
HS2 Ltd is certainly not NR (though both are in public ownership).

 

[CosherB]

Aha, OK. Yes, like you say, ridiculous. But internet forums have their tendancies to perpetuate such beliefs, absent of any evidence.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/295084/icec-itt.pdf

Paragraph 5.6.1.1 on page 74 of the 2014 ITT states:

"Use branding to maximise the value of the Franchise whilst having regard to the overall costs and benefits of branding, including limiting the costs of debranding at the end of the Franchise."

So the requirement for a neutral livery wasn't specified, albeit with the reservation that the costs of rebranding should be minimised at the end of the franchise, which is a bit 'limp' in my book! You'll still end up with a raspberry ripple Virgin livery!

 

[Cantab26]

Does anyone else play RMT-bingo?

Some hyperbole about "making a killing", a complaint about foreigners, reference to a "lottery"...

... it's as predictable as it is embarrassing.

Not quite the same without Bob Crow: there's not a single mention of fat-cats. Amateur!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the requirement for a neutral livery wasn't specified, albeit with the reservation that the costs of rebranding should be minimised at the end of the franchise, which is a bit 'limp' in my book! You'll still end up with a raspberry ripple Virgin livery!

Or it's just vinyl and you just remove it at the end.

 

[Cantab26]

So the requirement for a neutral livery wasn't specified, albeit with the reservation that the costs of rebranding should be minimised at the end of the franchise, which is a bit 'limp' in my book! You'll still end up with a raspberry ripple Virgin livery!

To be fair, both the VTWC 'swoosh' and the VTEC 'raspberry ripple' liveries are pretty neutral at heart.

With VTWC, if you remove the logos and change the red for a different anchor colour then there would be very little distinctiveness left at all. Silver and grey is pretty neutral overall.

I may confess that I actually prefer the Crosscountry livery on the Voyagers: without the large Virgin logos on the leading cars, the units need the large blocks of colour on the end vehicles.

Similarly, with VTEC the 'ripples' are presumably vinyls over base white. Strip off the vinyls and you're left with a totally neutral base. It's actually quite ingenious: they get to stick a distinctive corporate brand everywhere, whilst at the same time reducing debranding costs at the end of the franchise.

 

[Cantab26]

Or it's just vinyl and you just remove it at the end.

I see that we have reached the same conclusion.

It's the ultimate expression of a Stagecoach/Virgin tie-up: superficial branding and cost-cutting at a stroke.

 

[CosherB]

So we could end up in a situation whereby the Pendolinos are repainted at Widnes (starting soon?) to the end of 2019 and then get revinyled? Makes sense!!! :-x

 

[Mordac]

I was rooting for Virgin to get this, but like Neil Williams, i don't​ want SNCF anywhere near HS2. Although my main reasons are somewhat different, though I mostly agree with his as well. My main reason is that France actively use their state owned enterprises for economic warfare, and that's something we can't afford post Brexit.

I still hope for one of the JR companies to be brought in.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was rooting for Virgin to get this, but like Neil Williams, i don't​ want SNCF anywhere near HS2. Although my main reasons are somewhat different, though I mostly agree with his as well. My main reason is that France actively use their state owned enterprises for economic warfare, and that's something we can't afford post Brexit.
I still hope for one of the JR companies to be brought in.

Japan doesn't buy any railway stuff from us.
France does.

 

[Deerfold]

well yes, but they were originally a record company

They were originally a record shop.

 

[Roose]

West Coast and HS2 will be run to a specification laid down by DfT, with trains specified and purchased by DfT's HS2 Ltd, and doesn't involve any "land grab" of any kind.
What is it about Mick Cash that he scorns any outside investment in the UK?
Does he object to Ford or Microsoft owning UK factories/businesses?
Which UK state body has experience of running high-speed railways (or even low-speed railways, bar TfL)?

Mr Cash just doesn't seem to be a happy man. It's a shame. He should seek help.

 

[al green]

They were originally a record shop.

Both wrong. They were originally a mail order record business. Then shop, then record label.

 

[Deerfold]

Both wrong. They were originally a mail order record business. Then shop, then record label.

There's a recording studio between the shop and the record label.

 

[xc170]

Here's what the RMT have had to say

"RMT responds to news that Virgin and Stagecoach are hooking up with French state in land-grab for new HS2/West Coast franchise.

General Secretary Mick Cash said ;

This is yet another land grab on Britain's railways by the French state with SNCF and Richard Branson both realising that this new franchise will be a one way ticket to the bank for whoever comes out on top in this latest UK rail lottery.

The integrated HS2/West Coast operation has been bought and paid for by the British people and should be run by the British state in the public interest and not by some consortium of speculators looking to make a killing at the taxpayers expense."

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/virgin-and-stagecoach-hook-up-with-french-state-over-hs2/

Shock newsflash: RMT don't like something!

 

[Kite159]

Shock newsflash: RMT don't like something!

Shocking isn't it

(Reminds me when Stagecoach were seeking a Direct Award, Mr Cash came out with the usual "Basket Case" and "passengers deserve change" comments, only to do a complete 180 when it was announced the Direct Award had failed coming out with something along the lines of "SWT is the best, passengers don't deserve the uncertainly")

Private companies not allowed to make a small reward after investment?

whilst at the same time reducing debranding costs at the end of the franchise.

Same with station signage, makes more sense to have signs without the operator mentioned, to save money (and time) at the end of the franchise to cover up old logos (as in Northern).