InterCity West Coast Bidders

[KashmireHawker]

One of the EOI Document's states Bidders will be announced on June 15th 2017, with an approx 17 month Franchise contest beginning that day.

 

[KashmireHawker]

Stagecoach to go it alone?

Noticed they have registered to Companies House "Stagecoach New West Coast Trains Limited" 9 days back.

Maybe this will down to the speculation that Virgin are to announce they are to partner with RENFE for the new bid: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...poised-to-join-virgins-hs2-franchise-bid.html

All interesting if so!

 

[The Ham]

Stagecoach to go it alone?

Noticed they have registered to Companies House "Stagecoach New West Coast Trains Limited" 9 days back.

Maybe this will down to the speculation that Virgin are to announce they are to partner with RENFE for the new bid: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...poised-to-join-virgins-hs2-franchise-bid.html

All interesting if so!

Or it could just be so that the bid costs are all dealt with within one set of accounts so that costs are controlled and separate from the running franchise.

 

[misterredmist]

Stagecoach to go it alone?

Noticed they have registered to Companies House "Stagecoach New West Coast Trains Limited" 9 days back.

Maybe this will down to the speculation that Virgin are to announce they are to partner with RENFE for the new bid: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...poised-to-join-virgins-hs2-franchise-bid.html

All interesting if so!

It would appear the franchise has a requirement for bidders to have experience of high speed rail, perhaps that's why they need somebody like RENFE on board?

 

[JaJaWa]

Perhaps it will be Stagecoach and RENFE, just licensing the brand name from Virgin like they do on East Coast?

 

[43096]

Perhaps it will be Stagecoach and RENFE, just licensing the brand name from Virgin like they do on East Coast?

VTEC is 90% Stagecoach owned and 10% Virgin owned, so not just a brand name license.

 

[bb21]

Why would Stagecoach need to get RENFE onboard? After all they run East Coast.

 

[CosherB]

Why would Stagecoach need to get RENFE onboard? After all they run East Coast.

Read the link in post #152.

 

[Deerfold]

VTEC is 90% Stagecoach owned and 10% Virgin owned, so not just a brand name license.

That's not an uncommon stake to take for a brand license.

 

[WatcherZero]

Correct, Virgin didn't put any capital in they just received 10% of shares and an annual licensing fee for providing the name and marketing advice.

 

[bb21]

Read the link in post #152.

Yup, nearly forgot about it.

 

[HH]

Stagecoach to go it alone?

Noticed they have registered to Companies House "Stagecoach New West Coast Trains Limited" 9 days back.

Maybe this will down to the speculation that Virgin are to announce they are to partner with RENFE for the new bid: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...poised-to-join-virgins-hs2-franchise-bid.html

All interesting if so!

The major partner registering the name with no share split is not at all unusual at this stage. The vehicle used by First/MTR to bid for SWF had no mention of MTR.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The major partner registering the name with no share split is not at all unusual at this stage. The vehicle used by First/MTR to bid for SWF had no mention of MTR.

Though for the current Virgin Trains West Coast company, Stagecoach is not the major partner.

 

[HH]

Though for the current Virgin Trains West Coast company, Stagecoach is not the major partner.

That was then; this is now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That was then; this is now.

I don't think we know what flavour of Virgin/Stagecoach will be bidding for WCP, but they start at VTWC's 51/49 setup.
I presume the putative tie-up with Renfe is because SNCF are probably going with Keolis, and DB with Arriva, only leaving Renfe as a serious European high-speed operator now that Trenitalia are with First.
Renfe certainly has a wide variety of impressive high speed services, using stock from multiple suppliers, but I've never had the feeling they are in the mainstream of HS operators, particularly in terms of retail and service.
I can't see its expertise in dual-gauge, dual-voltage and bi-mode operation being much use for HS2.
No doubt they have plenty of experience of introducing and maintaining HS stock from any number of suppliers (Talgo, CAF, Siemens, Bombardier, Alstom).
Only Hitachi is missing.

 

[ivanhoe]

I don't think we know what flavour of Virgin/Stagecoach will be bidding for WCP, but they start at VTWC's 51/49 setup.
I presume the putative tie-up with Renfe is because SNCF are probably going with Keolis, and DB with Arriva, only leaving Renfe as a serious European high-speed operator now that Trenitalia are with First.
Renfe certainly has a wide variety of impressive high speed services, using stock from multiple suppliers, but I've never had the feeling they are in the mainstream of HS operators, particularly in terms of retail and service.
I can't see its expertise in dual-gauge, dual-voltage and bi-mode operation being much use for HS2.
No doubt they have plenty of experience of introducing and maintaining HS stock from any number of suppliers (Talgo, CAF, Siemens, Bombardier, Alstom).
Only Hitachi is missing.

Having recently experienced travelling by rail in Spain, I would argue that they can bring quite a bit to the Party. Their AVE services are very good. RENFE is also looking to expand overseas and this is an ideal fit. In respect of customer service, they're pretty good.

 

[Mordac]

Too bad it's not one of the JR companies.

 

[HH]

I don't think we know what flavour of Virgin/Stagecoach will be bidding for WCP, but they start at VTWC's 51/49 setup.

They don't start anywhere; this is not only a new franchise, but a different type of franchise with the HS2 oversight, necessitating a third partner. Anything is possible, but the only evidence we have is that Stagecoach have set up a company to bid. Normally this means they will have the largest interest, but it's not a given. The parties may not even have agreed the split yet.

 

[WatcherZero]

Virgin/Stagecoach bid has been announced as
50% Stagecoach
30% SNCF
20% Virgin

And will carry the Virgin branding.

 

[CosherB]

Virgin/Stagecoach bid has been announced as
50% Stagecoach
30% SNCF
20% Virgin

And will carry the Virgin branding.

Really? I thought that DaFT had learned from their ICEC mistake and were going for a 'neutral' livery a la GWR?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Exit Renfe then, and I suppose Keolis as a separate bidder.
I never thought Renfe would mix with Virgin somehow.
So now we have the prospect of SNCF operating a non-Alstom product (unless HS2 Ltd goes with them).
But I suppose they are getting used to that with Eurostar's Siemens 374s.
Note the prominent picture of a TGV in this:
https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/abou...h-sncf-for-west-coast-partnership-bid-1932810

 

[KashmireHawker]

Here's said Official Announcement:

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/abou...h-sncf-for-west-coast-partnership-bid-1932810

Virgin & Stagecoach join forces with SNCF for West Coast Partnership bid

Virgin Trains will partner with the French high speed operator, SNCF, in its bid for the West Coast Partnership. This will see the expertise of Virgin, Stagecoach and SNCF brought together to compete for the combined West Coast / HS2 franchise.

The Government has announced that the West Coast Partnership franchise will run from 2019, that it will include the first few years of operation of HS2, and that bidders must have high speed experience. SNCF, one of the world’s most recognised and capable High Speed operators brings that experience to our partnership. The shareholding for the bid is Stagecoach 50%, SNCF 30% and Virgin 20%.

Patrick McCall, Virgin Trains co-Chairman said: “I’m delighted that SNCF has come on board, and together we will put forward what we hope is the winning bid for the next West Coast, and first HS2, franchise. We’ve just celebrated twenty years of Virgin Trains and this news puts us in the best possible position to make it thirty.

“We’ve always focussed on customers throughout our history, introducing many UK firsts such as tilting trains, automatic compensation for delays, M-Ticketing and free films and TV on-board via our BEAM service. We’re thrilled about the prospect of continuing and improving this record of innovation with the UK’s first long distance high speed network, as well as with our friends and communities along the West Coast.”

SNCF is a global leader in high speed rail. It operates the largest fleet of high speed trains in Europe (nearly 430 trainsets) and, not including Thalys or Eurostar, runs around 700 high speed rail journeys per day in France and internationally at speeds of up to 320 km/h, the fastest in Europe. SNCF has been operating its iconic TGV service since 1981 and in 2013 launched Ouigo, its low-cost high speed service. SNCF’s high speed division recorded turnover of €7.5 billion in 2016 of which 27% was from international operations with 27 million passengers journeying on high speed trains outside of France.

Martin Griffiths, Chief Executive of Stagecoach Group, said: "This creates a powerful world-class partnership, bringing together the team which has transformed inter-city rail travel in the UK with the most recognised and capable high speed operator in Europe.

"The new franchise has an important role to play in delivering the improvements and space on our railway that can support our communities and economy. Together, we have a very strong track record of working effectively with other rail partners and infrastructure providers, as well as using cutting edge technology to achieve a step change in customer service."

Guillaume Pepy, Chairman and CEO of SNCF said: “This is a very exciting development for SNCF. We are world leaders in high speed rail. SNCF has a long-standing commitment of working in partnership with British companies, using their local knowledge and sharing our expertise and experience. Today, we are delighted to announce this next step in our commitment to UK rail, working with partners who have demonstrated their own expertise in long distance rail services and are highly regarded in the industry. We appreciate Stagecoach’s widespread expertise across a variety of transport modes and Virgin’s reputation for its renowned customer experience. In partnership, we will deliver a successful HS2 service for the UK.”

Virgin, Stagecoach, and SNCF have already worked together on the first stage of the West Coast Partnership bid, the ‘expression of interest’, which was submitted yesterday. The partners will now prepare for the “Invitation to Tender” which is expected to be issued by the end of the year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin/Stagecoach bid has been announced as
50% Stagecoach
30% SNCF
20% Virgin

And will carry the Virgin branding.

I did hope for a Virgin/Stagecoach retention, but the only European railway I trust to go anywhere near it is DB AG, which probably means an Arriva bid. I don't want the Romance method of operation (compulsory reservation, irregular timetables, airline style fares without a true Anytime fare, no through ticketing) anywhere near it. Therefore I don't want any bid involving a Romance style operator (i.e. SNCF, Trenitalia, RENFE) anywhere near it.

 

[glbotu]

I did hope for a Virgin/Stagecoach retention, but the only European railway I trust to go anywhere near it is DB AG, which probably means an Arriva bid. I don't want the Romance method of operation (compulsory reservation, irregular timetables, airline style fares without a true Anytime fare, no through ticketing) anywhere near it. Therefore I don't want any bid involving a Romance style operator (i.e. SNCF, Trenitalia, RENFE) anywhere near it.

I don't think that's ever going to be a risk. Compulsory reservations are not part of how the railway operates in this country (the airline-style Eurostar aside, but that's largely because of the UK's lack of Schengen membership). Unless the new franchising documents state it, then I don't think it'll happen.

 

[daikilo]

So now we have the prospect of SNCF operating a non-Alstom product (unless HS2 Ltd goes with them).

SNCF quite likes Bombardier and has been known to take other european stuff like freight locos. Will be interesting to see if they have any say at all in the choice of builder of rolling stock.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

SNCF quite likes Bombardier and has been known to take other european stuff like freight locos. Will be interesting to see if they have any say at all in the choice of builder of rolling stock.

Not on their high-speed lines though. Alstom TGV monopoly.
But for HS2 they don't get to choose (nor do Stagecoach/Virgin or any other bidder).
So if DB bid they might well end up running Bombardier, Hitachi or Alstom trains rather than Siemens ICEs.
About the only benefit Renfe has is that they operate HS trains from at least 4 different manufacturers.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I did hope for a Virgin/Stagecoach retention, but the only European railway I trust to go anywhere near it is DB AG, which probably means an Arriva bid. I don't want the Romance method of operation (compulsory reservation, irregular timetables, airline style fares without a true Anytime fare, no through ticketing) anywhere near it. Therefore I don't want any bid involving a Romance style operator (i.e. SNCF, Trenitalia, RENFE) anywhere near it.

Your Germanophile tendancies are showing again Neil!

SNCF is involved because of HS2 and its high speed experience. They are a very capable operator in this regard and do lots of consulting around the world (the HS1 operation is largely modelled on SNCF's LGVs). Besides the WCP operator is highly unlikely to have a free hand in the various things you mention.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Really? I thought that DaFT had learned from their ICEC mistake and were going for a 'neutral' livery a la GWR?

What mistake was that?

 

[JaJaWa]

Virgin/Stagecoach bid has been announced as
50% Stagecoach
30% SNCF
20% Virgin

And will carry the Virgin branding.

Interesting considering Keolis is 70% SNCF and Govia is 35% Keolis.

What mistake was that?

There is a ridiculous belief on the forum that 'the DfT forgot to specify a neutral livery in the current East Coast franchise'

 

[glbotu]

Really? I thought that DaFT had learned from their ICEC mistake and were going for a 'neutral' livery a la GWR?

So, my understanding is that branding must be neutral unless it is shown to have a notable net positive effect on customer experience OWTTE.

ie: People quite like Virgin's brand, so they're allowed to slap it all over their trains and stations. No one likes GTR, so everything has to be muted.