Ideas to solve Thameslink reliability by reducing its network

[nw1]

They should both run from Cannon St, to be honest.

The Luton-London Bridge path is 12 car so a bit of a waste on an 8 - it could bounce a Victoria service if Windmill is full (or, in an ideal world, 1tph East Grinstead, 1tph Uckfield!) - or take on the new Maidstone fast, with something else from Charing Cross. Or the Epsom fasts out of LB.

Could the Catford route be served again? A look at the off-peak timetable for today suggests they all terminate at Blackfriars. Rather than that messy Rainham service, could there not be 2 or 4tph TL through services down the Catford line (2 Sevenoaks and perhaps 2 Orpington), as that line always was served by TL through services "historically"?

Then you'd end up with TL through services running the Catford line exclusively and SE running the Dartford lines exclusively, which seems less of a mish-mash and means the rest of the network is more resilient if TL has problems.

 

[CarrotPie]

Could the Catford route be served again? A look at the off-peak timetable for today suggests they all terminate at Blackfriars. Rather than that messy Rainham service, could there not be 2 or 4tph TL through services down the Catford line (2 Sevenoaks and perhaps 2 Orpington), as that line always was served by TL through services "historically"?

Then you'd end up with TL through services running the Catford line exclusively and SE running the Dartford lines exclusively, which seems less of a mish-mash and means the rest of the network is more resilient if TL has problems.

I think 2tph to Sevenoaks and 2tph to Orpington would be a good idea as it gives the Catford Loop 4tph through the core (2 to ECML and 2 to MML), but they can be timetabled to allow SE CML services to call at Denmark Hill.

 

[Fred26]

Moorgate does 8tph in 2 platforms but the trains are only 6 cars. Moorgate has done 12tph with class 313s in the past, but I expect they had shorter setup times than class 717s.

Moorgate can handle 12tph. It has done it with 717s, though not since before Covid.
Whether the set up time is shorter on a 313 is irrelevant - the turnaround time is a 6 minute minimum with a 717, the same as it was for a 313.

Incidentally, the original timetable for 2018 was going to have 14tph to Moorgate in the peaks. Never happened though.

 

[Minstral25]

They should both run from Cannon St, to be honest.

The Luton-London Bridge path is 12 car so a bit of a waste on an 8 - it could bounce a Victoria service if Windmill is full (or, in an ideal world, 1tph East Grinstead, 1tph Uckfield!) - or take on the new Maidstone fast, with something else from Charing Cross. Or the Epsom fasts out of LB.

Moving the Thameslink from Rainham services to become the main East Grinstead services (with Victoria peak extras) would take a complex move away from Windmill Junction as the East Grinstead to Victoria service has to move from the mains to the slows between Selhurst and East Croydon.

Trouble is I don't think 8-cars will work on the East Grinstead trains and I am fairly sure there are no spare 12 cars to use.

 

[cle]

Moving the Thameslink from Rainham services to become the main East Grinstead services (with Victoria peak extras) would take a complex move away from Windmill Junction as the East Grinstead to Victoria service has to move from the mains to the slows between Selhurst and East Croydon.

Trouble is I don't think 8-cars will work on the East Grinstead trains and I am fairly sure there are no spare 12 cars to use.

Aren't Rainhams 12 car? It is a shorter journey too - like 35 mins less. So there must be a stock implication.

Removing Victoria-East Grinstead services would be contentious though. Maybe Victoria can be in the peaks, so it's reversed to today's set up with TL. Or you'd want to add something else, like a single tph, or a service on the slows part of the way. Not sure where you'd turn it though.

 

[CarrotPie]

Aren't Rainhams 12 car? It is a shorter journey too - like 35 mins less. So there must be a stock implication.

Removing Victoria-East Grinstead services would be contentious though. Maybe Victoria can be in the peaks, so it's reversed to today's set up with TL. Or you'd want to add something else, like a single tph, or a service on the slows part of the way. Not sure where you'd turn it though.

Rainhams are 8 car, always have been. There are quite a few platforms (Higham, Northfleet, Abbey Wood, Woolwich Arsenal) which are 10 car only, and the SE semi-fast that they replaced were only 8 cars anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

An example of a train running fast to make up a 37 minute delayed start from Peterborough

Realtime Trains | 9J33 1224 Peterborough to Horsham | 29/09/2022

Real-time train running information for 9J33 1224 departure from Peterborough to Horsham on 29/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Non-stop Peterborough to Finsbury Park, then core stations to East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and back on time. 22 minutes saved by running fast from Peterborough to Finsbury Park. 15 minutes saved by using the Quarry Line,

 

[CarrotPie]

An example of a train running fast to make up a 37 minute delayed start from Peterborough

Realtime Trains | 9J33 1224 Peterborough to Horsham | 29/09/2022

Real-time train running information for 9J33 1224 departure from Peterborough to Horsham on 29/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Non-stop Peterborough to Finsbury Park, then core stations to East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and back on time. 22 minutes saved by running fast from Peterborough to Finsbury Park. 15 minutes saved by using the Quarry Line,

Why the long stops at Harpenden (3.5 mins) and Redhill (5 mins)? Surely only one or two minutes is all that is needed even a Redhill?

 

[JonathanH]

Why the long stops at Harpenden (3.5 mins) and Redhill (5 mins)? Surely only one or two minutes is all that is needed even a Redhill?

At Redhill the train from Tonbridge crosses in front, also pathing through Gatwick with the up Arun Valley crossing before the Horley departure time. Huntingdon looks like aligning paths.

 

[CarrotPie]

Finally done more work on the map, adding the MML and services south of the core except for the BML (southern part of the map coming soon)

Changes to the service:

• Welwyn GC-Sevenoaks now calls at New Southgate
• Semi-fast Welwyn GC-Moorgate now calls at Hatfield but skips Brookmans Park, Harringay and Hornsey
• Slow Welwyn GC-Moorgate now runs 4tph during the peaks
• New fast peak-only service from Stevenage to Moorgate via Hertford North calling at Watton-at-Stone, Hertford North, Cuffley, Gordon Hill, Enfield Chase, Winchmore Hill, Palmers Green, Alexandra Palace, Finsbury, then all stations to Moorgate (2tph)
• New peak-only service from Letchworth Garden City to East Grinstead calling at Hitchin, Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Finsbury Park, Core, East Croydon, South Croydon, Upper Warlingham, Oxted, Hurst Green and Lingfield (2tph)

Changes to the map:

• Added MML and Thameslink Core
• Changed the order of TL services on the ECML to avoid unnecessary crossing over north of St Pancras
• Finagling of TL routes in the Hitchin and Letchworth areas to deal with the above

Full list of Thameslink services (not all mapped full yet):

Cambridge-Brighton (2tph)
Bedford-Brighton (2tph)
Bedford-Horsham-Littlehampton) (2tph)
Peterborough-Horsham (2tph)
St Albans City-Sutton (4tph)
Welwyn Garden City-Sevenoaks (2tph)
Luton-Maidstone East (2tph)
(Bedford-)Luton-East Grinstead (2tph)

Peak extras:
Bedford-Hove (2tph)
Letchworth Garden City-East Grinstead (2tph)
Luton-Orpington (2tph)
Blackfriars-Sutton (4tph)

Off-peak:
6tph to ECML
12tph to MML
4tph to Horsham
4tph to Brighton
4tph St Mary Cray-Otford
4tph Elephant & Castle-Streatham

Peak:
8tph to ECML
16tph to MML
4tph to Horsham (2tph to Littlehampton)
6tph to Preston Park (2tph to Hove, 4tph to Brighton)
4tph to East Grinstead
4tph on the Sutton and Catford Loops
4tph St Mary Cray-Otford
8tph Elephant & Castle-Streatham

 

[PGAT]

New peak-only service from Letchworth Garden City to East Grinstead calling at Hitchin, Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Finsbury Park, Core, East Croydon, South Croydon, Upper Warlingham, Oxted, Hurst Green and Lingfield (2tph)

What’s up with these stops? At least call at Sanderstead and maybe Norwood Junction

 

[CarrotPie]

What’s up with these stops? At least call at Sanderstead and maybe Norwood Junction

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough in my earlier post, but the normal Luton-East Grinstead service calls at all stations from Norwood Junction, so the peak-only extra doesn't need to. It doesn't call at Norwood anyway.

 

[nw1]

What’s up with these stops? At least call at Sanderstead and maybe Norwood Junction

To be fair a few of the old peak additional East Grinstead services used to have a limited stop pattern, certainly fast East Croydon to Oxted.

 

[PGAT]

To be fair a few of the old peak additional East Grinstead services used to have a limited stop pattern, certainly fast East Croydon to Oxted.

They call at East Croydon, South Croydon, Sanderstead, Oxted, Hurst Green, Lingfield, Dormans and East Grinstead, but most do stop at Riddlesdown, Upper Warlingham and Woldingham too

 

[nw1]

They call at East Croydon, South Croydon, Sanderstead, Oxted, Hurst Green, Lingfield, Dormans and East Grinstead, but most do stop at Riddlesdown, Upper Warlingham and Woldingham too

Was thinking of some examples from a while back, certainly remember in NSE days there were some that did that. Just the peak extras, not the normal off-peak pattern.

 

[WizCastro197]

I think Thameslink should ditch Rainham and replace it with Maidstone East (SE already runs MDE-BFR). This frees up a few 8-car units for use always.

Unrelated, I feel like extending the Gatwick Airport service could be extended to Horsham, giving more capacity, with the Bedford-Horsham service that would create being extended via Arundel to Littlehampton in the peaks.

From December SE will no longer run Maistone East to London Blackfriars.


A Bedford-Horsham/littlehampton via Redhill calling at all stations to Littlehampton inc. South Croydon from soon onwards would be useful but can't ever happen.

Bedfords should be extended to Three bridges as they will from December and no further extensions. Not many use this service past Three Bridges anyway so there isn't any point running it. Also means Horsham gets 7tph to London now which I am sure will congest it.


If both have the same calling pattern, one service say the PBO-Horsham will make the Bedford-Horsham obsolete.

 

[CarrotPie]

A Bedford-Horsham/littlehampton via Redhill calling at all stations to Littlehampton inc. South Croydon from soon onwards would be useful but can't ever happen.

What prevents this service from running?

Not many use this service past Three Bridges anyway so there isn't any point running it. Also means Horsham gets 7tph to London now which I am sure will congest it.

But Bedford-Redhill-Horsham doesn't run at the moment, so of course not many people use it.

If both have the same calling pattern, one service say the PBO-Horsham will make the Bedford-Horsham obsolete.

Peterborough-Horsham would call East Croydon, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Faygate (1tph during peaks only) and Littlehaven

Bedford-Horsham would call east Croydon, South Croydon (for connections to East Grinstead), Purley, Redhill then all stations to Horsham including Faygate (1tph all day)

 

[London Trains]

If both have the same calling pattern, one service say the PBO-Horsham will make the Bedford-Horsham obsolete.

Why would one service make the other obsolete? It provides 4tph instead of 2tph from all the stations it serves to London Bridge and the Thameslink core, and the northern destination is irrelevant.

 

[Bald Rick]

Delete, ignore me!

 

[PGAT]

A route only becomes obsolete when there is no reason to take it. For example, travelling from Horsham to Victoria via Dorking is completely useless since it stops at ALL stations and is only every hour.

 

[WizCastro197]

Why would one service make the other obsolete? It provides 4tph instead of 2tph from all the stations it serves to London Bridge and the Thameslink core, and the northern destination is irrelevant.

I have already mentioned upthread that each service will follow each other. Say you have around 50 passengers at Earlswood, and they are wanting to get to London they get on the Bedford service, the Peterborough arrives 5 minutes after with no one on the platform so one service accumulates all passengers and the other doesn't really get anything.

 

[PGAT]

I have already mentioned upthread that each service will follow each other. Say you have around 50 passengers at Earlswood, and they are wanting to get to London they get on the Bedford service, the Peterborough arrives 5 minutes after with no one on the platform so one service accumulates all passengers and the other doesn't really get anything.

Some might prefer to take the Peterborough though, since it is 5 mins behind it accumulates less passengers, but provides alternatives for passengers who just missed their train. The Peterborough train would theoretically overtake the Bedford by switching tracks at Stoat Nest, since the Bedfords have to call at Purley, South Croydon (from December) and Norwood Junction additionaly.

 

[WizCastro197]

Some might prefer to take the Peterborough though, since it is 5 mins behind it accumulates less passengers, but provides alternatives for passengers who just missed their train. The Peterborough train would theoretically overtake the Bedford by switching tracks at Stoat Nest, since the Bedfords have to call at Purley, South Croydon (from December) and Norwood Junction additionaly.

The proposer didn’t say if the calling pattern would remain the same or not unless I’ve just missed that part?

 

[PGAT]

The proposer didn’t say if the calling pattern would remain the same or not unless I’ve just missed that part?

I also missed it but I'm assuming that the calling pattern would stay as normal. Doesn't matter though, since the Gatwick-Bedfords call at Merstham and Coulsdon South in the peaks anyway.

 

[bramling]

An example of a train running fast to make up a 37 minute delayed start from Peterborough

Realtime Trains | 9J33 1224 Peterborough to Horsham | 29/09/2022

Real-time train running information for 9J33 1224 departure from Peterborough to Horsham on 29/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Non-stop Peterborough to Finsbury Park, then core stations to East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and back on time. 22 minutes saved by running fast from Peterborough to Finsbury Park. 15 minutes saved by using the Quarry Line,

This is a bit like the proverbial hospital with no patients. That service will have barely carried any passengers for the whole of its journey on the GN side. It might as well not have run!

(Yes I do fully understand the operational issues, however from a user perspective it sucks).

 

[CarrotPie]

I have already mentioned upthread that each service will follow each other. Say you have around 50 passengers at Earlswood, and they are wanting to get to London they get on the Bedford service, the Peterborough arrives 5 minutes after with no one on the platform so one service accumulates all passengers and the other doesn't really get anything.

But why would they be spaced 5 minutes apart instead of 15?

The proposer didn’t say if the calling pattern would remain the same or not unless I’ve just missed that part?

I said in post #197:
Peterborough-Horsham would call East Croydon, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Faygate (1tph during peaks only) and Littlehaven.

Bedford-Horsham would call east Croydon, South Croydon (for connections to East Grinstead), Purley, Redhill then all stations to Horsham including Faygate (1tph all day).

 

[Bald Rick]

This is a bit like the proverbial hospital with no patients. That service will have barely carried any passengers for the whole of its journey on the GN side. It might as well not have run!

(Yes I do fully understand the operational issues, however from a user perspective it sucks).

But the next service was right behind it on the GN side. It would have made little difference Had it run as booked.

 

[nw1]

Peterborough-Horsham would call East Croydon, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Faygate (1tph during peaks only) and Littlehaven

Bedford-Horsham would call east Croydon, South Croydon (for connections to East Grinstead), Purley, Redhill then all stations to Horsham including Faygate (1tph all day)

So is this 4tph to Horsham from TL? Sounds rather like over-provision if so, given there are already 2tph Southern too.

Would it not be better to terminate the Bedford at Three Bridges (as it already does from what understand, at least it did in the normal pre-Covid timetable). The Horsham should presumably go fast Purley-Redhill-Horley (so Horsham line passengers get a faster journey to London) and the Three Bridges terminator take up all the intermediate stations.

 

[CarrotPie]

The Horsham should presumably go fast Purley-Redhill-Horley (so Horsham line passengers get a faster journey to London) and the Three Bridges terminator take up all the intermediate stations.

So switch the stopping pattern of the Peterborough and Bedford?

 

[bramling]

But the next service was right behind it on the GN side. It would have made little difference Had it run as booked.

That next service would, of course, likely be busier, as it would be carrying two trains worth of people. So still an undesirable outcome from the end-user perspective.