Ideas to solve Thameslink reliability by reducing its network

[WizCastro197]

Passengers from Chichester and the Arun Valley do though

Yes that is why I had refrained from saying elsewhere other than London as those at the capital should just get SWR to Weymouth and get off at Southampton where most people do anyway.

 

[cle]

Not really consistent with how East Croydon and Windmill Bridge is laid out though. It would be more straightforward to put all London Bridge services via the slow lines at East Croydon and all Victoria trains via the Quarry, but totally undesirable.

I can see this for Reigate/Redhill slow services, and Horsham (inc Arun) services potentially.

Lewes services should run Quarry.

 

[Magdalia]

To be fair Long distance passengers who are really going to Southampton or Portsmouth from London wouldn't use the southern services anyway

I use the Arun Valley route for Cambridge to Portsmouth. A single same platform change at East Croydon is much easier than using Waterloo.

 

[Hadders]

TfL Rail / Elizabeth line was the most punctual operator in the latest report.

The Elizabeth Line is brand new - do you think this has got anything to do with it?

 

[miklcct]

The Elizabeth Line is brand new - do you think this has got anything to do with it?

It is a continuation of TfL Rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Elizabeth Line is brand new - do you think this has got anything to do with it?

Merseyrail is 43 years old (same as me!) and other than recent blips due to unit shortages has an excellent punctuality record. This is almost entirely down to not stressing the infrastructure/capacity and keeping diagrams simple and self contained with little outside risk imported.

So no, it hasn't got anything to do with it. Thameslink is too complex and has far too many trains through the core, it has just been turned into a fancy version of Castlefield. It should have stayed as it was in terms of routes. Bedford to Brighton using the 12 cars, Luton to the Sutton loop with the 8s. Everything else back as it was.

 

[Hadders]

Merseyrail is 43 years old (same as me!) and other than recent blips due to unit shortages has an excellent punctuality record. This is almost entirely down to not stressing the infrastructure/capacity and keeping diagrams simple and self contained with little outside risk imported.

So no, it hasn't got anything to do with it. Thameslink is too complex and has far too many trains through the core, it has just been turned into a fancy version of Castlefield. It should have stayed as it was in terms of routes. Bedford to Brighton using the 12 cars, Luton to the Sutton loop with the 8s. Everything else back as it was.

Wasn't the idea of sending the GN trains via the core so that the capacity released at Kings Cross could be used for more long distance services? In effect, if you don't send the Peterborough and Cambridge trains wavia the core you won't free up the capacity at Kings Cross. No use sending current Moorgate services via the core 0 that won't free anything uo at Kings Cross. The Cambridge semi fasts could be sent that way (that was actually the original plan but unlikely to happen now) but there are only two of them an hour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2022 ==

It is a continuation of TfL Rail.

The figures will be flattered by the brand new central section.

 

[Minstral25]

It does work.

Not as well as it should, nor consistently perfect, but on the whole it works well.

Agree that it works brilliant when it works - the issue is that they have yet to come up with a decent plan for disruption and because the network is very large disruption is very common.

Rather than messing around with routes which by and large work well it would be better to add strategic infrastructure that allows a service to be maintained in disruption

Perhaps a simplification of off-peak Thameslink mainline services would be for all 8tph to run via the Quarry Line and be the only services from Keymer Junction to Brighton/Hove. An 8tph turn up and go service for the major stations from St Pancras to at least Haywards Heath would seem pretty convenient. Perhaps:

• 4tph Bedford-Brighton
• 2tph Cambridge-Brighton
• 2tph Peterborough-Littlehampton

No Gatwick Express. All services via Redhill, Horsham or Lewes run to/from Victoria. A 6tph via Redhill service would be an easy connection to the 8tph Thameslink service at East Croydon.

Just an idea.

In a way Redhill route is a success for Thameslink (bar reliability) as most passengers now want to use Thameslink rather than Victoria, so it would be a bad move to drop Thameslink through Redhill.

Additionally, the trains from Redhill to Victoria would arrive at P4 (north) & P5/6 (south), whereas all Thameslink services above would probably use P2 (North) & P3 (South), so you are creating a massive bottleneck of passengers using the awful Footbridges at East Croydon. Redhill route stations have around 10 million entries/exits per annum without adding whatever comes from Purley and East Grinstead to the mix, so that is a lot of people across the footbridges.

I know when I travelled regularly before Thameslink I hated changing at East Croydon as it is such an unhelpful station for the passenger, especially when you needed to change platform.

Not really consistent with how East Croydon and Windmill Bridge is laid out though. It would be more straightforward to put all London Bridge services via the slow lines at East Croydon and all Victoria trains via the Quarry, but totally undesirable.

This would add to the problem at East Croydon as trains would create many conflicting moves, so another reason why not

If we are really theorising how these Thameslink services could be altered, I think if Thameslink were to withdraw from Redhill completely there needs to be an increase in Southern services to the south coast eg that Portsmouth Harbour & Bognor train should run via Redhill all the time like before 2018. (Does anyone recall the reason why it was removed). Creating such services via Redhill removes the necessity of changing at Gatwick Airport and now with the decrease in capacity if there was a withdrawal in Thameslink services is needed to ensure that Redhill line passengers can be treated well service wise. (and get a seat)


I have made a few errors in this please feel free to contradict it

The issue for bringing Southern trains from longer distance through Redhill was that trains ex-Brighton and ex-Arun Valley were full at Gatwick heading to London leaving no room for passengers along the Redhill line stations to get a seat and standing was the norm pre-2012ish when that was how the service was delivered.

The bigger issue is to get 6 trains per hour through Redhill to Victoria is what the services are. 2tph could be current Reigate Service (but Reigate has no capacity for more trains) and 2tph from Horsham to Victoria (Stopper) but where would the other 2tph come from? Guess the Horsham could be semi-fast from Gatwick (Horley, Redhill, Purley - Vic) and another service from Haywards Heath/Three Bridges calling all stations.

Victoria is also pretty full so where would the services from Redhill fit into the station?

I use the Arun Valley route for Cambridge to Portsmouth. A single same platform change at East Croydon is much easier than using Waterloo.

It is not a same platform change at Redhill as mentioned above.



I can't see the service pattern being replaced, maybe some tweaks but not a wholesale replacement. It took 3 or more years of discussions and planning to get what we have. It is probably the best selection and to improve reliability is about Infrastructure improvements to allow for contingencies. Not exactly what the DfT like to pay for.

 

[adrock1976]

My suggestion (which is or was similar to 4 or 5 years ago) would be as follows:

Bedford - Brighton via Quarry Lines every 30 minutes
Bedford - Horsham via Redhill every 30 minutes
Peterborough - Three Bridges every 30 minutes (either this or the Cambridge to run via Redhill with the other train from the GN side running via Quarry Lines)
Cambridge - Brighton every 30 minutes (either this or the Peterborough to run via Redhill with the other train from the GN side running via Quarry Lines)

Luton - Sevenoaks via Denmark Hill, Catford Loop, and Swanley every 30 minutes
Luton (or St Albans City) - Swanley (or Bellingham) via Denmark Hill and Catford Loop every 30 minutes

Kentish Town - Blackfriars - Herne Hill - Wimbledon - Sutton (Surrey) every 15 minutes (the loop service broken and doubled in frequency)*

Letchworth Garden City - Horsham via Herne Hill, Mitcham Junction, Sutton (Surrey), and Epsom every 30 minutes**
Letchworth Garden City (or somewhere on the Hertford Loop) - Epsom Downs via Herne Hill, Mitcham Junction, and Sutton (Surrey) every 30 minutes**

The above is a simplified service pattern which gives a total of 20tph through the Thameslink core, with the other four paths spare for recovery or used for relief trains.

*Timed to meet and exchange passengers at Herne Hill to/from the Victoria - Orpington.
** Timed to wait at Herne Hill to allow Victoria - Maidstone/other destinations in Kent to overtake

 

[PGAT]

My suggestion (which is or was similar to 4 or 5 years ago) would be as follows:

Bedford - Brighton via Quarry Lines every 30 minutes
Bedford - Horsham via Redhill every 30 minutes
Peterborough - Three Bridges every 30 minutes (either this or the Cambridge to run via Redhill with the other train from the GN side running via Quarry Lines)
Cambridge - Brighton every 30 minutes (either this or the Peterborough to run via Redhill with the other train from the GN side running via Quarry Lines)

Luton - Sevenoaks via Denmark Hill, Catford Loop, and Swanley every 30 minutes
Luton (or St Albans City) - Swanley (or Bellingham) via Denmark Hill and Catford Loop every 30 minutes

Kentish Town - Blackfriars - Herne Hill - Wimbledon - Sutton (Surrey) every 15 minutes (the loop service broken and doubled in frequency)*

Letchworth Garden City - Horsham via Herne Hill, Mitcham Junction, Sutton (Surrey), and Epsom every 30 minutes**
Letchworth Garden City (or somewhere on the Hertford Loop) - Epsom Downs via Herne Hill, Mitcham Junction, and Sutton (Surrey) every 30 minutes**

The above is a simplified service pattern which gives a total of 20tph through the Thameslink core, with the other four paths spare for recovery or used for relief trains.

*Timed to meet and exchange passengers at Herne Hill to/from the Victoria - Orpington.
** Timed to wait at Herne Hill to allow Victoria - Maidstone/other destinations in Kent to overtake

Major issue with this is that there's only 2tph from Three Bridges-Brighton. Also there isn't much point in swapping the Bedford and Peterborough services.

Also you have services from Letchworth to Horsham and Epsom Downs. They're both going to cause big capacity issues in the Sutton area and the Victoria-Epsom Downs service would have to be removed, and likely some others that run through Epsom. This problem becomes even worse because the route to Kentish Town via Wimbledon would require a shunt at 4tph frequency which is not possible unless you bulldoze all the other services. And what about Wimbledon station with only capacity for 1 train at a time? Simply the demand isn't great enough for that.

My take on this whole situation would be:

Bedford-Brighton (Fast via Quarry lines) 2tph (same as right now)
Bedford-Three Bridges (Slow via Redhill) 2tph (stops at Coulsdon South and Merstham additionally)
Peterborough-Horsham (Fast via Redhill) 2tph (doesn't stop at Coulson South or Merstham)
Cambridge-Brighton (Fast via Quarry lines) 2tph (stops at Hassocks and Preston Park additionally)
St Albans-East Grinstead 2tph (stops at Norwood Junction and South Croydon)

Luton-Sevenoaks/Orpington (Doesn't matter which) 2tph
Letchworth-Sevenoaks/Orpington (Doesn't matter which) 2tph
Luton-Sutton (via Mitcham Junction) 2tph
West Hampstead/Kentish Town-Sutton (via Wimbledon) 2tph
Welwyn Garden City-Horsham (takes over and extends current London Bridge-Epsom) 2tph

Benefits:
2tph 4tph to Brighton from Hassocks and Preston Park.
Direct services from Norwood Junction and Purley to Three Bridges off-peak.
Direct services from Coulsdon South and Merstham to Earlswood and Salfords.
2tph 4tph from Purley to Coulsdon South and Merstham.
Quicker journeys from Horsham to central London, and 6tph to choose from instead of 5.
Passengers can change at Three Bridges instead of a ram-packed Gatwick Airport.
West Croydon, Waddon, Wallington, Carshalton Beeches, Cheam, Ewell East, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Dorking, Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham now have direct access to the core.
6tph 8tph from Norwood Junction to London Bridge.
2tph 6tph from Norwood Junction to The Core.
2tph 4tph on the Catford loop.
3tph 5tph from Oxted and Hurst Green to East Croydon and London Bridge.

 

[WizCastro197]

Also there isn't much point in swapping the Bedford and Peterborough services.

Ahh! Beat me to it. But by far not the craziest proposal We have seen yet!


Changing Thameslink services is someway or another going to affect Southern Services so it would be interesting to see how these services would compare to people’s Thameslink Proposals.

 

[Bald Rick]

Kentish Town - Blackfriars - Herne Hill - Wimbledon - Sutton (Surrey) every 15 minutes (the loop service broken and doubled in frequency)*

Where are these services going when they arrive P1 at Sutton?

 

[PGAT]

They shunt using this crossover.

 

[Bald Rick]

They shunt using this crossover.

Yes I know they can do that. Interesting concept four times an hour though, with various services coming from Epsom…

 

[adrock1976]

Where are these services going when they arrive P1 at Sutton?

They shunt using this crossover.

Yes I know they can do that. Interesting concept four times an hour though, with various services coming from Epsom…

Are there four platforms at Sutton, with two of those for the Wimbledon direction?

I must admit that I have never seen the Sectional Appendix for routes south of the Thames.

 

[nw1]

To my mind the current Thameslink network seems a bit of a mess, and rather hard to understand, compared to the version in place around 2013 or so.

The network always used to be a simple three-route system: Bedford-Brighton, Luton-Wimbledon loop and the Sevenoaks route, formerly from Luton but latterly from Kentish Town it appears. The complexity seems to have arisen from the through running to the ECML, though there may be other ways of allowing ECML running with a simpler timetable.

Could the off-peak service be reduced to a 5-min pattern through the central section made up of three simple, easy to understand routes, and with as many 12-coach trains as possible? Something like:

Route 1: 4tph Brighton-Bedford (2tph fast on the BML, 2tph all stations to Gatwick)

Route 2: 4tph Wimbledon Loop-St Albans/Luton stopper

Route 3: 4tph Sevenoaks/Catford - Cambridge (2tph) and Peterborough (2tph); perhaps 2tph could come from Ashford/Maidstone (limited-stop from Bromley South to Blackfriars) and 2tph from Sevenoaks (all stations), though this would need overtaking in the Bromley area if they left the central section at 15-min intervals: is there 4-tracking around Swanley or have I got that wrong? Or, if Maidstone doesn't work, have 2tph from Orpington all stations.

On top of this base off-peak frequency peak extras could be added as needed, originating from Blackfriars northbound or Kings Cross southbound.

with all other services terminating in the traditional termini, albeit operated with 700s if needed.

 

[PGAT]

Yes I know they can do that. Interesting concept four times an hour though, with various services coming from Epsom…

That was my criticism as well. No way on earth can they do that, not enough capacity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==

Are there four platforms at Sutton, with two of those for the Wimbledon direction?

I must admit that I have never seen the Sectional Appendix for routes south of the Thames.

Yes there are. Platforms 1 and 2 are the only ones with Wimbledon and Epsom access, and Platforms 3 and 4 only have Epsom Downs access, but can freely move to any path in the Northbound or Eastbound direction.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==

To my mind the current Thameslink network seems a bit of a mess, and rather hard to understand, compared to the version in place around 2013 or so.

The network always used to be a simple three-route system: Bedford-Brighton, Luton-Wimbledon loop and the Sevenoaks route, formerly from Luton but latterly from Kentish Town it appears. The complexity seems to have arisen from the through running to the ECML, though there may be other ways of allowing ECML running with a simpler timetable.

Could the off-peak service be reduced to a 5-min pattern through the central section made up of three simple, easy to understand routes? Something like:

4tph Brighton-Bedford (2tph fast on the BML, 2tph all stations to Gatwick)
4tph Wimbledon Loop-St Albans/Luton stopper
4tph Sevenoaks/Catford - Cambridge (2tph) and Peterborough (2tph); perhaps 2tph could come from Ashford/Maidstone (limited-stop from Bromley South to Blackfriars) and 2tph from Sevenoaks (all stations), though this would need overtaking in the Bromley area if they left the central section at 15-min intervals: is there 4-tracking around Swanley or have I got that wrong?

with all other services terminating in the traditional termini, albeit operated with 700s if needed.

With that setup, there are only 2 tph to Brighton instead of 4. Only 4 tph to Gatwick Airport instead of 8. Redhill and Horley only have 2 tph instead of 4. Ifield and Littlehaven have no frequent services, and Faygate has none at all. Having metro routes going out as far as Peterborough and Cambridge is very wasteful, and frankly none of this is worth it just to make it “easier to understand”

 

[nw1]

With that setup, there are only 2 tph to Brighton instead of 4. Only 4 tph to Gatwick Airport instead of 8. Redhill and Horley only have 2 tph instead of 4. Ifield and Littlehaven have no frequent services, and Faygate has none at all. Having metro routes going out as far as Peterborough and Cambridge is very wasteful, and frankly none of this is worth it just to make it “easier to understand”

I did also say "all other services terminating at the traditional termini". So I wouldn't bin the stopping service from Horsham, but just run it to Victoria or London Bridge instead. Redhill could be served with the two Horsham services and the two from Reigate, the Reigates could take up the Purley/Coulsdon/Merstham calls while the Horshams could run fast from there to East Croydon. In addition, the Bognor services could be routed Redhill once more, like they did in around 2013. Brighton actually has 4tph under the suggestion I made, but could also have the two traditional fasts and two traditional semi-fasts to Victoria brought back.

Meanwhile Gatwick Express could perhaps be removed altogether as a waste of paths, and its 387s used to help solve Southern's stock problems.

Essentially what I'm getting at is "restore the 2013/14 pattern, but with additional services through to the ECML" and was figuring (I may be wrong) that it would be logistically easier to run all the ECML services from the same southern approach route.

I've kept Peterborough and Cambridge there as they are fairly major places, and are probably used to having Thameslink services now.

 

[WizCastro197]

I did also say "all other services terminating at the traditional termini". So I wouldn't bin the stopping service from Horsham, but just run it to Victoria or London Bridge instead. Redhill could be served with the two Horsham services and the two from Reigate, the Reigates could take up the Purley/Coulsdon/Merstham calls while the Horshams could run fast from there to East Croydon. In addition, the Bognor services could be routed Redhill once more, like they did in around 2013. Brighton actually has 4tph under the suggestion I made, but could also have the two traditional fasts and two traditional semi-fasts to Victoria brought back.

Meanwhile Gatwick Express could perhaps be removed altogether as a waste of paths, and its 387s used to help solve Southern's stock problems.

Essentially what I'm getting at is "restore the 2013/14 pattern, but with additional services through to the ECML" and was figuring (I may be wrong) that it would be logistically easier to run all the ECML services from the same southern destination.

I've kept Peterborough and Cambridge there as they are fairly major places, and are probably used to having Thameslink services now.

As has already been discussed I think on this thread, Running Bognor services via Redhill isn’t possible as by Gatwick Airport the train is already too full and the chances of boarding at Redhill are void


Removing Thameslink from Redhill is detrimental
As it is now becoming rather popular

 

[SE%Traveller]

To my mind the current Thameslink network seems a bit of a mess, and rather hard to understand, compared to the version in place around 2013 or so.

The network always used to be a simple three-route system: Bedford-Brighton, Luton-Wimbledon loop and the Sevenoaks route, formerly from Luton but latterly from Kentish Town it appears. The complexity seems to have arisen from the through running to the ECML, though there may be other ways of allowing ECML running with a simpler timetable.

Could the service be reduced to a 5-min pattern through the central section made up of three simple, easy to understand routes? Something like:

4tph Brighton-Bedford (2tph fast on the BML, 2tph all stations to Gatwick)
4tph Wimbledon Loop-St Albans/Luton stopper
4tph Sevenoaks/Catford - Cambridge (2 fast, 2 slow)

with all other services terminating in the traditional termini, albeit operated with 700s if needed.

ALL DAY: 16 TPH: Northern Branches 10 from MML, 6 from ECML; Southern Branches: 8 BML, 4 Catford Loop, 4 Wimbledon Loop

1. 4TPH Bedford (Fast) - Bedford Brighton (Fast) (12 Car)
2. 2TPH Cambridge (Fast) - Three Bridges (Semi-Fast) (12 Car)
3. 2TPH Peterborough (Fast) - Horsham (Semi-Fast) (12 Car)
4. 2TPH Luton (Semi-Fast) - Orpington (Slow) (8 Car)
5. 2TPH Cambridge (Slow) - Sevenoaks (Slow) (8 Car)
6. 2TPH St Albans (Slow) - Mitchham & Sutton (8 Car)
7. 2TPH St Allans (Slow) - Wimbledon & Sutton (8 Car)
8. 2TPH Luton (Semi-Fast) - East Grinstead (12 Car)

PEAK EXTRAS: 4 TPH: Total 20 TPH) Northern Branches 12 from MML, 8 from ECML; Southern Branches: 10 BML, 6 Catford Loop, 4 Wimbledon Loop

1. 2TPH Luton (Semi-Fast) - East Grinstead (12 Car)
2. 2TPH Welwyn (Semi-Fast) - Bellingham (Slow) (8 Car)

I think it's a better spread of 12 car trains.
The peak extras Bedford-East Grinstead and Orpington-Luton (north of river) are a bit bit piecemeal as it is so combine them makes sense (i Think the Semi's can run 12 Car)

Also it should give good even 15 min intervals across the branches.

• St Albans Sutton already do run 15 apart
• if the Luton East Grinstead took the current Rain-ham Path it would be 15 mins apart from the Orpington Service
• The Cambridge Slow and Welwyn Service arrive at Finsbury Park at 15 min intervals and it's path is kinda of there (sort of)
• Then 4tph Fasts ECML; 4TPH FAST BML and 4 Semi Fast BML.

Depending on Route Knowledge and drivers etc the Bellingham Service runs to Cambridge if Sevenoaks is late (with the latter swapping to Welwyn)

alternating North & South destinations allows each to have a service if one of the 'four' fails.

Increase use of the Catford Loop allows services to be easily be binned into Blackfriars as required with Cambridge going to Kings Cross.
Theoretically you could run the Suttons out of Platform 4 at Blackfriars and the Catfords out of Platform 3 and focus on getting the other 8 through the core. Though i've often wondered if the having all the Sutton Drivers depoted north of the river makes this trickier than i make it sound...

 

[nw1]

As has already been discussed I think on this thread, Running Bognor services via Redhill isn’t possible as by Gatwick Airport the train is already too full and the chances of boarding at Redhill are void

Removing Thameslink from Redhill is detrimental
As it is now becoming rather popular

OK that's a fair point.

I think the suggestions of @SE%Traveller are good if we want to maintain a service from non "traditional" destinations, so on top of the three routes I suggested we could add a fourth 15-min route, i.e. Horsham or Three Bridges via Redhill to, perhaps, the ECML. The Three Bridges starters would take up the Earlswood, Salfords and Horley calls, the Horsham originators would run fast.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==

ALL DAY: 16 TPH: Northern Branches 10 from MML, 6 from ECML; Southern Branches: 8 BML, 4 Catford Loop, 4 Wimbledon Loop

1. 4TPH Bedford (Fast) - Bedford (Fast) (12 Car)

Bedford to Brighton, I guess?

1. 2TPH Cambridge (Fast) - Three Bridges (Semi-Fast) (12 Car)
2. 2TPH Peterborough (Fast) - Horsham (Semi-Fast) (12 Car)

I like this suggestion given that the Redhill to Thameslink route is important, as @WizCastro197 stated. It's nice and "clean", consistently ECML at the north end and consistently BML via-Redhill at the south.

1. 2TPH Luton (Semi-Fast) - Orpington (Slow) (8 Car)
2. 2TPH Cambridge (Slow) - Sevenoaks (Slow) (8 Car)
3. 2TPH St Albans (Slow) - Mitchham & Sutton (8 Car)
4. 2TPH St Allans (Slow) - Wimbledon & Sutton (8 Car)

Does the MML now have 12 TL trains per hour? (I have to admit I've lost track, I thought it was 8 - four fasts, and four slows. The semi-fast is something I was unaware of).

In that case, why not make the Luton semi-fasts run to either Orpington or Sevenoaks, for consistency and a cleaner pattern, and run the Cambridge slow into Kings Cross? (Given Cambridge would already have 2 TL trains per hour).

 

[SE%Traveller]

Bedford to Brighton, I guess?

LOL don't think a Bedford Rounder would take off, Yep I'll update

Does the MML now have 12 TL trains per hour? (I have to admit I've lost track, I thought it was 8 - four fasts, and four slows. The semi-fast is something I was unaware

Yes its has the 2tph Luton Rainham Service all day (which i didn't state but saw going into Cannon Street). Orpington Luton in Peaks.

In that case, why not make the Luton semi-fasts run to either Orpington or Sevenoaks,

Yep that gives some symmetry. Alterntively
All Day:
4TPH: St Albans Bromley South (with 2 to Orpington & 2 to Sevenoaks)
2TPH: Luton To Sutton via Mitchham
2TPH: Blackfriars to Sutton via Wimbledon.

2TPH: Luton to Sutton via Wimbledon
2TPH: Welwyn to Bellingham

Conflicting Moves on Holborns off peak goes from 12 TPH each to 4
Maintain link to Hornsey Depot for the 700s

 

[London Trains]

I will most likely post this again in a new thread in a few days with my changes to Southern, Great Northern, SWR, EMR and Southeastern also explained, but here is my idea for Thameslink.

Changes I have made:

The biggest change I have made is to convert the service north of the core to a 6tph base timetable instead of 4tph. This has many benefits, including that Brighton services can be equally spaced every 15 mins from the core southwards and still run to both Bedford and Cambridge, and skip-stopping services to Luton (currently the Rainham services) that provide additional services to some stations but skipping others will not be needed anymore, simplifying service patterns.

Sutton via Wimbledon services run into the Blackfriars bays, as these services are unnecessary anyway since the Northern Line to E&C is much faster than Thameslink from the Morden and Tooting areas.

My plan requires a new 12 coach Platform 3 at Reigate to be built.

New services run to West Croydon via Tulse Hill and Crystal Palace, providing new connectivity along the corridor of the 68/468/X68 bus routes which are very popular.

Services run all stations to both Welwyn and Hertford, with both lines having an equally spaced 4tph that alternates between Thameslink and Moorgate. Some platform extensions will be needed on these routes.


Service pattern (stations in core not shown as it would be repetitive):

Bedford to Brighton 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath, Wivelsfield, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Preston Park)

Cambridge to Brighton 2tph (12 coach)
(Royston, Baldock, Letchworth, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park...London Bridge, East Croydon, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Balcombe, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill)

Bedford to Horsham 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, Norwood Jct, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Littlehaven)

Bedford to Reigate 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, Norwood Jct, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill)

St Albans to Sutton 2tph (8 coach)
(Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Brent Cross, Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Kentish Town...E&C, Loughborough Jct, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Jct, Hackbridge, Carshalton)

St Albans to West Croydon 4tph (8 coach)
(Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Brent Cross, Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Kentish Town...E&C, Loughborough Jct, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace, Norwood Jct)

Welwyn to Sevenoaks 2tph (8 coach)
(Hatfield, Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Potters Bar, Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park...E&C, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Eynsford, Shoreham, Otford, Bat & Ball)

Hertford North to Orpington 2tph (8 coach)
(Bayford, Cuffley, Crews Hill, Gordon Hill, Enfield Chase, Grange Park, Winchmore Hill, Palmers Green, Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park...E&C, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, Petts Wood)


Order of services and intervals between each service in the core (not the actual times):

00 Bedford to Brighton
05 Hertford to Orpington
07.5 St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
10 Bedford to Horsham
15 Cambridge to Brighton
17.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
20 Bedford to Reigate
25 Welwyn to Sevenoaks
27.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
30 Bedford to Brighton
35 Hertford to Orpington
37.5 St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
40 Bedford to Horsham
45 Cambridge to Brighton
47.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
50 Bedford to Reigate
55 Welwyn to Sevenoaks
57.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace

 

[bramling]

I've kept Peterborough and Cambridge there as they are fairly major places, and are probably used to having Thameslink services now.

Peterborough I don't think gives a stuff for Thameslink, it still seems to be the case that these services fill and empty quite heavily at St Pancras. Users on this route would rather not have gaps of 1-2 hours between services when there's the slightest whiff of trouble, stops between Stevenage and Peterborough routinely removed, or the latest thing which is for services to terminate at Stevenage.

Cambridge is more nuanced, however this doesn't really work that well either, as if you want to take Thameslink from Cambridge it means seven extra intermediate stops compared to the fast 387 services, whilst also taking up space to the detriment of users from intermediate stations.

 

[Magdalia]

Bedford - Brighton via Quarry Lines every 30 minutes
Bedford - Horsham via Redhill every 30 minutes
Peterborough - Three Bridges every 30 minutes (either this or the Cambridge to run via Redhill with the other train from the GN side running via Quarry Lines)
Cambridge - Brighton every 30 minutes (either this or the Peterborough to run via Redhill with the other train from the GN side running via Quarry Lines)

Luton - Sevenoaks via Denmark Hill, Catford Loop, and Swanley every 30 minutes
Luton (or St Albans City) - Swanley (or Bellingham) via Denmark Hill and Catford Loop every 30 minutes

Kentish Town - Blackfriars - Herne Hill - Wimbledon - Sutton (Surrey) every 15 minutes (the loop service broken and doubled in frequency)*

Letchworth Garden City - Horsham via Herne Hill, Mitcham Junction, Sutton (Surrey), and Epsom every 30 minutes**
Letchworth Garden City (or somewhere on the Hertford Loop) - Epsom Downs via Herne Hill, Mitcham Junction, and Sutton (Surrey) every 30 minutes**

That's 8tph through the 2 track section at Welwyn and a guaranteed disaster.

Bedford-Brighton (Fast via Quarry lines) 2tph (same as right now)
Bedford-Three Bridges (Slow via Redhill) 2tph (stops at Coulsdon South and Merstham additionally)
Peterborough-Horsham (Fast via Redhill) 2tph (doesn't stop at Coulson South or Merstham)
Cambridge-Brighton (Fast via Quarry lines) 2tph (stops at Hassocks and Preston Park additionally)
St Albans-East Grinstead 2tph (stops at Norwood Junction and South Croydon)

Luton-Sevenoaks/Orpington (Doesn't matter which) 2tph
Letchworth-Sevenoaks/Orpington (Doesn't matter which) 2tph
Luton-Sutton (via Mitcham Junction) 2tph
West Hampstead/Kentish Town-Sutton (via Wimbledon) 2tph
Welwyn Garden City-Horsham (takes over and extends current London Bridge-Epsom) 2tph

Might be a goer if the Peterboroughs are peak only and the Letchworth's don't go beyond Welwyn Garden City.

Route 1: 4tph Brighton-Bedford (2tph fast on the BML, 2tph all stations to Gatwick)

Route 2: 4tph Wimbledon Loop-St Albans/Luton stopper

Route 3: 4tph Sevenoaks/Catford - Cambridge (2tph) and Peterborough (2tph); perhaps 2tph could come from Ashford/Maidstone (limited-stop from Bromley South to Blackfriars) and 2tph from Sevenoaks (all stations), though this would need overtaking in the Bromley area if they left the central section at 15-min intervals: is there 4-tracking around Swanley or have I got that wrong? Or, if Maidstone doesn't work, have 2tph from Orpington all stations.

It is essential that the train from Cambridge to Gatwick and Brighton is retained. This is the most important gain from having the Canal Tunnel.

ALL DAY: 16 TPH: Northern Branches 10 from MML, 6 from ECML; Southern Branches: 8 BML, 4 Catford Loop, 4 Wimbledon Loop

1. 4TPH Bedford (Fast) - Bedford (Fast) (12 Car)
2. 2TPH Cambridge (Fast) - Three Bridges (Semi-Fast) (12 Car)
3. 2TPH Peterborough (Fast) - Horsham (Semi-Fast) (12 Car)
4. 2TPH Luton (Semi-Fast) - Orpington (Slow) (8 Car)
5. 2TPH Cambridge (Slow) - Sevenoaks (Slow) (8 Car)
6. 2TPH St Albans (Slow) - Mitchham & Sutton (8 Car)
7. 2TPH St Allans (Slow) - Wimbledon & Sutton (8 Car)
8. 2TPH Luton (Semi-Fast) - East Grinstead (12 Car)

PEAK EXTRAS: 4 TPH: Total 20 TPH) Northern Branches 12 from MML, 8 from ECML; Southern Branches: 10 BML, 6 Catford Loop, 4 Wimbledon Loop

1. 2TPH Luton (Semi-Fast) - East Grinstead (12 Car)
2. 2TPH Welwyn (Semi-Fast) - Bellingham (Slow) (8 Car)

The Cambridge slows must never go through the core because of the punctuality risks in the 2 track section at Welwyn. This proposal is actually worse for complexity and fragility than what we have now.

Service pattern (stations in core not shown as it would be repetitive):

Bedford to Brighton 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath, Wivelsfield, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Preston Park)

Cambridge to Brighton 2tph (12 coach)
(Royston, Baldock, Letchworth, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park...London Bridge, East Croydon, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Balcombe, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill)

Bedford to Horsham 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, Norwood Jct, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Littlehaven)

Bedford to Reigate 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, Norwood Jct, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill)

St Albans to Sutton 2tph (8 coach)
(Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Brent Cross, Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Kentish Town...E&C, Loughborough Jct, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Jct, Hackbridge, Carshalton)

St Albans to West Croydon 4tph (8 coach)
(Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Brent Cross, Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Kentish Town...E&C, Loughborough Jct, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace, Norwood Jct)

Welwyn to Sevenoaks 2tph (8 coach)
(Hatfield, Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Potters Bar, Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park...E&C, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Eynsford, Shoreham, Otford, Bat & Ball)

Hertford North to Orpington 2tph (8 coach)
(Bayford, Cuffley, Crews Hill, Gordon Hill, Enfield Chase, Grange Park, Winchmore Hill, Palmers Green, Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park...E&C, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, Petts Wood)

Hertford loop can't even take 8 car trains, maximum is 6 cars.

And you appear to have left Streatham to Sutton via Wimbledon without any trains.

Welwyn Garden City-Horsham (takes over and extends current London Bridge-Epsom) 2tph

This is an interesting new idea, that actually makes excellent use of the new infrastructure. I like it. Currently the London Bridge trains terminate in platform 1 at Epsom, how long is that? Running through to Dorking/Horsham would be complicated as presumably the existing Victoria-Dorking/Horsham services would have to terminate at Epsom instead?

 

[nw1]

As an aside, why has it always been (even before the ECML TL) that all Bedford services call at all stops to Luton? Why not have 2tph fast Bedford-Luton?

 

[London Trains]

Hertford loop can't even take 8 car trains, maximum is 6 cars.

And you appear to have left Streatham to Sutton via Wimbledon without any trains.

In my post I said that some platform extensions on the Hertford Loop would be necessary, only at the busiest stations though.

I also said services via Wimbledon would run into the Blackfriars bays.

 

[PGAT]

I will most likely post this again in a new thread in a few days with my changes to Southern, Great Northern, SWR, EMR and Southeastern also explained, but here is my idea for Thameslink.

Changes I have made:

The biggest change I have made is to convert the service north of the core to a 6tph base timetable instead of 4tph. This has many benefits, including that Brighton services can be equally spaced every 15 mins from the core southwards and still run to both Bedford and Cambridge, and skip-stopping services to Luton (currently the Rainham services) that provide additional services to some stations but skipping others will not be needed anymore, simplifying service patterns.

Sutton via Wimbledon services run into the Blackfriars bays, as these services are unnecessary anyway since the Northern Line to E&C is much faster than Thameslink from the Morden and Tooting areas.

My plan requires a new 12 coach Platform 3 at Reigate to be built.

New services run to West Croydon via Tulse Hill and Crystal Palace, providing new connectivity along the corridor of the 68/468/X68 bus routes which are very popular.

Services run all stations to both Welwyn and Hertford, with both lines having an equally spaced 4tph that alternates between Thameslink and Moorgate. Some platform extensions will be needed on these routes.


Service pattern (stations in core not shown as it would be repetitive):

Bedford to Brighton 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath, Wivelsfield, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Preston Park)

Cambridge to Brighton 2tph (12 coach)
(Royston, Baldock, Letchworth, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park...London Bridge, East Croydon, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Balcombe, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill)

Bedford to Horsham 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, Norwood Jct, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Littlehaven)

Bedford to Reigate 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, Norwood Jct, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill)

St Albans to Sutton 2tph (8 coach)
(Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Brent Cross, Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Kentish Town...E&C, Loughborough Jct, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Jct, Hackbridge, Carshalton)

St Albans to West Croydon 4tph (8 coach)
(Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Brent Cross, Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Kentish Town...E&C, Loughborough Jct, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace, Norwood Jct)

Welwyn to Sevenoaks 2tph (8 coach)
(Hatfield, Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Potters Bar, Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park...E&C, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Eynsford, Shoreham, Otford, Bat & Ball)

Hertford North to Orpington 2tph (8 coach)
(Bayford, Cuffley, Crews Hill, Gordon Hill, Enfield Chase, Grange Park, Winchmore Hill, Palmers Green, Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park...E&C, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, Petts Wood)


Order of services and intervals between each service in the core (not the actual times):

00 Bedford to Brighton
05 Hertford to Orpington
07.5 St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
10 Bedford to Horsham
15 Cambridge to Brighton
17.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
20 Bedford to Reigate
25 Welwyn to Sevenoaks
27.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
30 Bedford to Brighton
35 Hertford to Orpington
37.5 St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
40 Bedford to Horsham
45 Cambridge to Brighton
47.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
50 Bedford to Reigate
55 Welwyn to Sevenoaks
57.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace

St Albans to West Croydon is impossible. LO has effectively "taken dibs" on the bay platform, so trains can't terminate there. You could use the turnback sidings, but you would have to kick out the current Southern trains that use them, and scale down to 2tph.

 

[London Trains]

St Albans to West Croydon is impossible. LO has effectively "taken dibs" on the bay platform, so trains can't terminate there. You could use the turnback sidings, but you would have to kick out the current Southern trains that use them, and scale down to 2tph.

Maybe East Croydon platform 5 could work instead, with the Watford Jct service cut back to Clapham Junction.

 

[Magdalia]

In my post I said that some platform extensions on the Hertford Loop would be necessary, only at the busiest stations though.

Hertford North is impossible because of the bridge at the north end and the points into the carriage sidings at the south end.

I also said services via Wimbledon would run into the Blackfriars bays.

Sorry, missed that bit! But presumably still running through at Sutton?