MidlandMainlie
Member
- Joined
- 5 Aug 2011
- Messages
- 791
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
HS2 Hybrid Bill
- Thread starter exdeus
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Good news if your support HS2 that is. It was interesting to hear what the MPs had to say on the matter.
I especially liked the comment as many people are travelling now as in the 1920s but we have half the size of network.
That could actually be considered as an argument for expanding the network to places not currently served by trains, which is something that is happening in some areas and should continue to happen in my opinion.
They also talked about overcrowding on the west coast route. That's not the only route that's overcrowded and not all overcrowded routes are getting the same parliamentary time as HS2. Perhaps the solutions to their problems are less controversial so don't need such parliamentary time.
My comments are not meant to be anti HS2. Just a reflection on the fact HS2 isn't the only rail project that would be useful.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
I especially liked the comment as many people are travelling now as in the 1920s but we have half the size of network.
That could actually be considered as an argument for expanding the network to places not currently served by trains, which is something that is happening in some areas and should continue to happen in my opinion.
They also talked about overcrowding on the west coast route. That's not the only route that's overcrowded and not all overcrowded routes are getting the same parliamentary time as HS2. Perhaps the solutions to their problems are less controversial so don't need such parliamentary time.
My comments are not meant to be anti HS2. Just a reflection on the fact HS2 isn't the only rail project that would be useful.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Indeed I think we both have watching and waiting with anticipation
Yes, I was sat watching it on tele for the last hour, I couldn't and wouldn't want to watch the whole seven hours though!
MidlandMainlie
Member
- Joined
- 5 Aug 2011
- Messages
- 791
Lightweight, I watched most of the whole debate, though I did tune out a little when some of the Conservatives opposed to the scheme kept making the same arguments, economic case not been made, £50 billion too much money etc. :roll:
deltic
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 3,713
Interested to know which overcrowded routes are not getting the same level of attention as HS2 - the level of investment going ahead or planned across the network is unprecedented
It is unprecedented overall but are they giving the same parliamentary time to all the projects? I keep hearing about HS2 but is that because it's in the planning stages now and other projects are not. It could be I'm more aware of it because the media are talking about it more than other rail projects so I get a perception that it's getting more time than it actually is. It's quite decisive in terms of fore and against the idea.
I noticed today that David Cameron didn't vote last night. I'm sure he would have done were it a closer battle. After all he has more to deal with than just HS2. Ukraine for one thing, amongst many others.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
I noticed today that David Cameron didn't vote last night. I'm sure he would have done were it a closer battle. After all he has more to deal with than just HS2. Ukraine for one thing, amongst many others.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Snapper
Established Member
Meanwhile, outside Parliament, the Anti Hs2 mob were protesting.
They claim to be a growing campaign.
They claim 540k homes & 1 million people are 'blighted' by Hs2.
They claim they have over 90 'action' groups.
They claim the majority of the UK opposes Hs2.
How many turned up?
Less than 100...
Pix here: http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p294940289
They claim to be a growing campaign.
They claim 540k homes & 1 million people are 'blighted' by Hs2.
They claim they have over 90 'action' groups.
They claim the majority of the UK opposes Hs2.
How many turned up?
Less than 100...
Pix here: http://paulbigland.zenfolio.com/p294940289
Thanks for sharing the photos. I'm sure their figures are higher than they actually are. However equally I wouldn't be surprised if any figures quoted by the government were lower than they actually are. It's probably somewhere in the middle. That's the cynic in me talking.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
po8crg
Member
- Joined
- 6 Feb 2014
- Messages
- 559
Most other projects can be done with normal planning permission or a Transport and Works Act Order.
There's a TWAO public inquiry going on right now in Manchester/Salford over the Ordsall Chord, for instance.
The Hybrid Bill process is only needed for really huge projects where the TWAO process would be impractical.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 34,240
Not forgetting the new 'Infrastructure Planning Commission' (Development Consent Order) procedure for certain sized projects, as has just been used for the Ipswich Chord, and the Norton Bridge project which was confirmed only recently.
Then to cap it all off, Network Rail can do a huge amount of work within their boundary using 'permitted development rights'. Simplifying things a great deal, the original Acts used to build the railway in the first place normally included a perpetual right to modify, maintain and renew structures, embankments, cuttings etc.
It would be interesting to see if there's a published scale of sizes or costs that is used to decide between TWA Orders, Infrastructure Planning Commission or Parliamentary Bill procedures.
As I think we've discussed before, there was an opinion voiced that Chiltern shouldn't really have needed a TWA Order for the whole of the Bicester - Oxford line because it was a renewal, except for the new junction with their main route.
Then to cap it all off, Network Rail can do a huge amount of work within their boundary using 'permitted development rights'. Simplifying things a great deal, the original Acts used to build the railway in the first place normally included a perpetual right to modify, maintain and renew structures, embankments, cuttings etc.
It would be interesting to see if there's a published scale of sizes or costs that is used to decide between TWA Orders, Infrastructure Planning Commission or Parliamentary Bill procedures.
As I think we've discussed before, there was an opinion voiced that Chiltern shouldn't really have needed a TWA Order for the whole of the Bicester - Oxford line because it was a renewal, except for the new junction with their main route.
Last edited:
Hmm, I think if I was an anti-HS2 protestor I might have been put off by the way it seems to have been taken over by UKIP.
Geezertronic
Established Member
WatcherZero
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,272
Theres a figure somewhere, came up during Ordsall Chord, NR did a TWAO because they thought the scheme was too large (and government hadnt precisley defined it) when it turned out a TWAO wasnt required they decided to carry on with it anyway. I think its defined as 2km of continous track on non railway land.
Theres other anomalies in the process, for example Metrolink needed a fresh TWAO order when they decided to demolish the Oldham viaduct purely because of the height difference from the previous approval, even though there was no horizontal variation. If they had decided to move it several meters to the left say however on a new alignment they wouldnt have required a new TWAO.
WatcherZero
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 10,272
Well Stoke Council have now officially filed papers with the House of Commons petitioning the route of HS2 to be changed so that it doesnt go to Crewe but instead ends in Stoke 'saving' £5bn.
MidlandMainlie
Member
- Joined
- 5 Aug 2011
- Messages
- 791
Still flogging that dead horse I see :roll:
Now that the deadline for petitions has passed it seems that there will be quite a few to get through. Will there be a process for condensing petitions asking the same thing, or does everybody get to have their say. I am sure that some people have guanine points to raise, but others may be just complaining that they don't like the project. Could they duplicate the number of committees to speed things up?
Johnuk123
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 Mar 2012
- Messages
- 2,800
deltic
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 3,713
Number of petitions was far smaller than some expected (some thought 10,000+) and compares reasonably well to Crossrail which got 365 for a much smaller scheme which had far more support. Very few petitioners will actually appear, to have any chance of getting changes to the scheme you need very expensive legal assistance. Some issues brought up will be sorted before Select Committee, others are so generic they are grouped together or will not be called because they dont conform to the rules (eg just saying you are opposed to the scheme is pointless as the principle has been accepted by Parliament).
There are two committees one in the Commons then in the Lords. This can be useful as a solution/agreement does not have to be reached first time round. For example, someone can petition for a change to the scheme which may take some time to explore. So rather than giving a commitment to do the change in the Commons Committee HS2 can say they will look at in more detail with the Petitioner with the aim of reaching an agreement by the time it reaches the Lords.
The aim is always to try to reach an agreement with the petitioner before it comes to the Committee as there is always the risk the Committee will demand some expensive change to the scheme to address a petitioner's complaint.
The only serious petitions are those coming from Councils and major landowners - individuals in the Chilterns and the various pressure groups are likely to have minimal impact.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 20,273
Option 5 would seem to be the best of the "long tunnel" options - for one thing it means there are only three locations to secure across the entire 25km section of railway. (The TBM extraction shaft and the two portals)
That is likely good from a cable theft point of view.
The long tunnel options are easier to force through and are less vulnerable to climatic problems like those which crippled LGV Nord a couple of years back. (110mph speed limits and so on).
pablo
Member
OK, I'll rise to it. That report of Arup's for HS2 compares the tunnelled options with international projects of similar complexity. All of them under mountains or the sea!
Here, the proposal is to put say 25km of tunnel under rural England. As the report says,"Unprecedented".
Do we really want to travel around this country like a mole? The 20km of tunnel from St.P to Barking is tedious and unsafe enough; and that has a good sized (some might say grossly oversized) station midway.
If a generally surface alignment is not acceptable, do we really want the project at all?
This report into solving the Chiltern AONB problem shows the project is getting out-of-hand. Perhaps that is the idea?
Here, the proposal is to put say 25km of tunnel under rural England. As the report says,"Unprecedented".
Do we really want to travel around this country like a mole? The 20km of tunnel from St.P to Barking is tedious and unsafe enough; and that has a good sized (some might say grossly oversized) station midway.
If a generally surface alignment is not acceptable, do we really want the project at all?
This report into solving the Chiltern AONB problem shows the project is getting out-of-hand. Perhaps that is the idea?
NotATrainspott
Established Member
- Joined
- 2 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 3,304
OK, I'll rise to it. That report of Arup's for HS2 compares the tunnelled options with international projects of similar complexity. All of them under mountains or the sea!
Here, the proposal is to put say 25km of tunnel under rural England. As the report says,"Unprecedented".
Do we really want to travel around this country like a mole? The 20km of tunnel from St.P to Barking is tedious and unsafe enough; and that has a good sized (some might say grossly oversized) station midway.
If a generally surface alignment is not acceptable, do we really want the project at all?
This report into solving the Chiltern AONB problem shows the project is getting out-of-hand. Perhaps that is the idea?
The Chilterns AONB is contiguous with the North Wessex Downs AONB, resulting in a 'shield' of protected areas or towns around London going from the 8 o'clock to 12 o'clock directions. Unfortunately the second largest city in Britain is at a 10 o'clock direction from London and to skirt around this 'shield' would be more expensive and less useful than just tunnelling through it.
pablo
Member
Agreed. Tunnelling under London is one thing but rural England? It's nonesense.
Do we want to live (or travel) like that? That is the question.
Even the cold war and nuclear threat didn't drive us underground.
Do we want to live (or travel) like that? That is the question.
Even the cold war and nuclear threat didn't drive us underground.
Last edited:
pablo
Member
HSTEd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 20,273
Underground railways will work no matter what the weather (no speed restrictions or closures due to ice build up and so on).
There would be no cable thefts due to the lack of unauthorised track access and the route can be shorter as tunnels can proceed in straight lines in most cases with no respect for the aboveground terrain.
If we can afford the tunnels then we should have them.
If HS2-1 was essentially all in tunnel construction would probably have started by now.
pablo
Member
That's all a little biased. Fires and trespass have affected the CTRL. Tunnels do have to deflect, vertically and horizontally, to avoid geo problems and surface features above. If you study technical alignment docs, you realise it can sometimes be quite dodgy.
Snapper
Established Member
Here's a completely pointless poll from a spambot site on Twitter, but it would put the anti #hs2 mob into real tizzy if Hs2 supporters waste a couple of minutes to vote in it & turn it around.
So, if you've a couple of minutes to waste... :REALLY:
http://hs2facts.co.uk/do-you-want-hs2-hs2yes-or-hs2no/
So, if you've a couple of minutes to waste... :REALLY:
http://hs2facts.co.uk/do-you-want-hs2-hs2yes-or-hs2no/
- Status