How is HS1 domestic doing

[Greenback]

The concept of the high speed services has been flawed from the start. If the classiic services had not been slowed to try and make the new trains more attractive despite the higher fares, then they would be even emptier now!
Many people will not pay more for a service that doesn't actually save them any time when you factor in the time spent getting to their destination rather than the station. It seems to have followed the Heathrow Express model, which is successful largely because of the foreign visitors/airline passengers, to whom the fares are not a problem as part fo their overall travel expenditure.

 

[jon0844]

St Pancras may well be a better station for many people to come to, but I still think that people will not want to pay the extra money. And if they do, they'll do it while cursing the TOC in the process - which will in turn see a backlash against SET.

It should have been seen as a new route, with the potential to 'share the load' and attract new business - not a way of cashing in on commuters who already pay a load. To then slow down the other services, and reduce the frequency, is an even bigger insult.

Passenger numbers are going up, so why does SET not think they could make money just running things as normal?

At the very least, they could have had no premium for weekly, monthly or annual season ticket holders and have a smaller premium for daily tickets (or off-peak tickets).

In fact, they could do any number of things. Instead they have to suggest they're running shorter trains to save electricity (nice attempt at being seen to be green). Does that mean the next step to being green will be to cut every other train? Why not stop running ALL trains - then you'd not only save electricity but could cut down wear and tear of the rails, the salary of a driver and on-board manager... Win win!

 

[Pumbaa]

The arrogance is well placed. For example on the new trains they are not known as conductors but as On Board Managers. I am guessing this means they are more highly trained than ordinary train guards/conductors and have extra responsabilities.

There is one such member on here, who as an on-board manager, will be able to tell you the differences!

 

[Greenback]

St Pancras may well be a better station for many people to come to, but I still think that people will not want to pay the extra money. And if they do, they'll do it while cursing the TOC in the process - which will in turn see a backlash against SET.

It should have been seen as a new route, with the potential to 'share the load' and attract new business - not a way of cashing in on commuters who already pay a load. To then slow down the other services, and reduce the frequency, is an even bigger insult.

Passenger numbers are going up, so why does SET not think they could make money just running things as normal?

At the very least, they could have had no premium for weekly, monthly or annual season ticket holders and have a smaller premium for daily tickets (or off-peak tickets).

In fact, they could do any number of things. Instead they have to suggest they're running shorter trains to save electricity (nice attempt at being seen to be green). Does that mean the next step to being green will be to cut every other train? Why not stop running ALL trains - then you'd not only save electricity but could cut down wear and tear of the rails, the salary of a driver and on-board manager... Win win!

I agree. I think the people that use the service at the moment are probably those for whom a small time saving can be achieved. Many of these will find St Pancras as convenient, or more convenient, than the other termini. Obviously, though, the numbers are less than expected, despite the slowing down of the traditional routes. Let's face it, who (apart from people giving it a try because it;s new!) is going to pay more money for a service that isn't really premium and doesn't save them any time overall?

I wouldn't bet against there being a change of heart in the future, and the higher fares being abandoned.

 

[jon0844]

Common sense must prevail eventually. As you said before, they seem to think they can follow the Heathrow (or any airport express service) model without thinking that there are lots of business travellers who can easily afford to pay (especially if they're not actually paying).

I usually take HEX simply because I'm either in a rush to GET to the airport, or desperate to get home after a long flight. I will pay the premium then (and it is me paying 9 times out of 10), but can't see myself doing this regularly to get to/from work.

Oh, and there's actually a significant time saving over the tube. It's easy to forget about Heathrow Connect too, which is a good compromise but can stitch you up if you just miss it. There's a longer wait for the next one, PLUS the extended journey time. Heathrow Connect does at least honour travelcards too (excluding the last leg of the journey - but certainly a LOT less than HEX).

 

[Greenback]

I did use the tube once from Heathrow to Central London, it seemed to take forever, it was small and cramped and I wouldn't recommend it! But I should think it;s pretty useful from South West London and Hounslow! And for people working at the airport, like a lot of those who use Heathrow Connect.

But whereas with Heathrow there was a huge demand for a fast link to London (even Paddington!) from international travellers, I don't think there was such a latent demand with HS1 and Kent. I would have thought that for most people, they would have been quite used to their daily travel patterns, and, although probably happy to moan about the trains, would require a huge incentive in terms of either speed, comfort, facilities or all three, to be willing to pay a premium on top of what already seem like huge sumsfor their season tickets.

I wish I was surprised at the cutting of carriages, but I'm not. Once the intiial publicity and curiosity about the new trains was out of the way, I thought they would struggle to fill the seats day in day out!

 

[jon0844]

But, I bet they'd fill them up (at least in the peaks) if they dropped the surcharge. During the bad weather (snow) when HS1 allowed people on without the premium payment, it was pretty busy.

 

[Greenback]

You may well be right. The dynamics of the market may be that people will be happy to use it if there is no surcharge, because they will not then mind that there is no buffet, first class or time saving! AS they say, there's one way SET can find out...

 

[dk1]

Give it time & i am sure the High Speed services will do well. This is very early days & anything takes time to build up. A good example will be Crossrail where traditionally commuters from West of the Capital along the GWML do not head towards the City & Docklands in the vast numbers that do from the South East/East Anglia. Crossrail is over time expected to change this.

I have read several reports of people in well paid jobs who are now in the process of moving further out where your money will buy you much larger property & land & see the excellent journey times as a real bonus & dont bat an eyelid at the HS1 surcharge.

 

[jon0844]

Well, there were already quite a few people who bought property in Ashford for the Eurostar station, before services were sharply cut back!

Perhaps those houses can be sold to people who aren't working in mainland Europe but London instead!

 

[yorksrob]

Well, thats true to an extent. My sister works in London (and lives there through the week) and she finds the link excellent for the weekly commute, although partially because her work is nearer to St Pancras. Speaking as someone who grew up in Kent, I think the premium service has a certain amount of potential, although I think the real bonus of HS1 will be as a relief route to the existing service in the long term rather than a premium service.

One main reason for this is that although all of Kent is beautiful (the garden of England no less), it strikes me that the most attractive bit (particularly for rich city types with lots of money) is the wealden bit (let's say Miss Marple/ Darling Buds of May territory), which lies predominantly in the South West, particularly towards Tunbridge Wells and is mostly concentrated in the bit not served by HS1. HS1 serves predominantly my home town, Ashford, the Medway Towns around Chatham, and Coastal resorts such as Folkestone, Margate, Ramsgate etc, which are all fine enough, but can be a bit rough around the edges at times - no more than the most places of course - but they're ordinary England rather than picture postcard. Basically, with the exception of perhaps the Canterbury area, HS1 mises out the bit of the county which is more likely to attract the City types.

 

[A60K]

One thing to point out is that the premium fares for HS services were specified by the DafT in the franchise agreement - rather than being SET's idea.

 

[Greenback]

Yet another spectacular success by DafT!

 

[atomicdanny]

One thing to point out is that the premium fares for HS services were specified by the DafT in the franchise agreement - rather than being SET's idea.

The only problem with that is most people don't know that and blame south eastern for all the fares! Infact the impression that I got from the bbc news about it today was that people don't want them at that price and would only travel on it if the fare was the same as the standard!

 

[jon0844]

And why shouldn't they. You'd pay a premium for an InterCity style service, but there's no refreshments onboard and not even first class. When the train is totally empty, you might just consider the whole train to feel like first class (especially when it's new and clean) but that won't last forever.

We also know that the speed isn't as high as advertised most of the time. In fact, the real time saving is just down to it being a nice, direct and straight, bit of line. Once you come off the nice new bit, the train is exactly the same as the others.

 

[Greenback]

I agree. There is nothing 'special' about the service apart from the fact that it is new!

 

[jobbers]

I use the HS1 from Folkestone daily and depite working in the City find it fantastic, although I gather the main issues are with the "other" route where very little time saving is made and the premium is still charged.
There is no issue with the trains not having first class - there is ample leg room, and the seats are fine for the 40 minute journey - unlike having to pay for 1st class on the "classic" lines where the seats and legroom are identical to standard - especially on a networker!
As for the location - for city types such as myself I get off at Stratford, bus through the Olympic village then pick up the overground into Liverpool Street - additional cost - £0 - time taken from getting off the train at Stratford to sitting at my desk - 30 minutes max. Compare that with theoretically a 7 minute walk for me to Cannon Street, which in the evening I have to allow 20 in order to get a seat and it's a no brainer. It saves me a total of 11 hours a week of my time - I leave home later, work longer and get home earlier and travel in (generally) stress free comfort!! I appreciate not everybody has the ability to pay the extra, and I think this is where the issue lies - SET should be looking to improve the classic services so everyone who can afford to REALLY has a choice.

 

[yorksrob]

I appreciate not everybody has the ability to pay the extra, and I think this is where the issue lies - SET should be looking to improve the classic services so everyone who can afford to REALLY has a choice.

Ah, but you see, I'd say exactly the opposite. The same should be charged for all routes then the vast majority of commuters East of Ashford would naturally gravitate to high speed, relieving congestion and overcrowding on the classic lines around Tonbridge/Maidstone etc. The premium reduces it's beneficial effect to commuters and acts as a disincentive for people to use high speed. I agree with you about 1st class on Electrostars though

 

[Greenback]

People do expect a better service overall if they pay a higher price. Of course, what people to consider to be a better service, and therefore worth the extra money will differ from person to person. It does seem as though loadings are not as high as were hoped, otherwise why would be coaches be removed from the trains? Customers must therefore be making a value judgement and not switching to HS services in the sort of numbers that was predicted. Lowering the prices may make some customers revise their judgement and decide that it is worth paying a little bit more for, but not what is currently charged. Or, as Yorksrob said, eliminating the supplements might attract more people overall.

 

[jon0844]

There may be no issue with the lack of first-class for now, but if the service was to get busy then surely you'd lose this benefit/luxury? I see the trains, at the moment, as effectively being ALL first-class.

That's probably why first class season ticket holders are invited to use the service at no extra charge, when they're actually voluntarily using a train that conveys NO first class accommodation. Nice little trick they've pulled there!

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I believe that one of the perceived benefits of first class is the greater chance of getting a seat in the first place. This is not a benefit at all if there's plenty of seats in standard!

 

[atomicdanny]

Personally I think that they should either make all of the fares on the high speed part of the route standard fare during the off peak times of the day to encourage more use during the day while keeping the same fare during the peak.

I also think that because it isn't used that much Southeastern should cut the off peak Faversham service to 1 per hour (instead of 2), if no one uses it then what is the point of having two per hour, when these could be used else where. or even go as far as extending the off peak to cover the section to Dover (via Canterbury East) or Ramsgate, which in turn would free up more of the 375s to use on other routes?

Or at worst Southeastern could simply get rid of the faversham service and give the trains to another company that would use them, e.g. to the West Coast Mainline, East Coast Mainline or even between Manchester and Glasgow where they need faster trains than they currently have (185s @100mph on a faster track?)

edit - I just had a though, the only real advantage for those travelling from Faversham would be anyone travelling north to either Sheffield/Nottingham, or any where on the ECML via Kings Cross or perhaps Great Eastern from Stratford? only because people wouldn't need to use the underground!

 

[Lampshade]

Or at worst Southeastern could simply get rid of the faversham service and give the trains to another company that would use them, e.g. to the West Coast Mainline, East Coast Mainline or even between Manchester and Glasgow where they need faster trains than they currently have (185s @100mph on a faster track?)

Don't forget the 395s will still be limited to 110mph on the WCML as they don't tilt. Also they'll be similarly limited to 110mph on the ECML as the pantographs on them are designed for high speed line use, where the overhead power cables are fiercely sprung as opposed to on the ECML; apparantly there was a risk of overloading the supply with the NoL Eurostar sets.

EDIT: There may also be a problem between Manchester and Preston with electric trains

 

[dk1]

I still have full confidence that the service will pick up as travel patterns adjust. Cant see them going anywhere as will be needed for Javelin shuttles during 2012 Olympics. Would imagine if need be Southeastern will just be bailed out by government for any financial problems until then to keep everone sweet.

 

[atomicdanny]

Don't forget the 395s will still be limited to 110mph on the WCML as they don't tilt. Also they'll be similarly limited to 110mph on the ECML as the pantographs on them are designed for high speed line use, where the overhead power cables are fiercely sprung as opposed to on the ECML; apparantly there was a risk of overloading the supply with the NoL Eurostar sets.

EDIT: There may also be a problem between Manchester and Preston with electric trains

There are plans though to electrify Liverpool to Manchester though, that's what I meant really

 

[devon_metro]

I also think that because it isn't used that much Southeastern should cut the off peak Faversham service to 1 per hour (instead of 2),

If you cut the service then you can't expect use to increase!

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose if they were to fully integrate HS1 with the rest of the South East it would be relatively easy to kit out the Javelins with a first class carriage.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The whole point of adjusting prices is to influence demand.
Good old, basic market economics.
They put a premium on the price - so the market stayed away.

Personally I think that they should either make all of the fares on the high speed part of the route standard fare during the off peak times of the day to encourage more use during the day while keeping the same fare during the peak.

Exactly!
Remove the premium, and the market will increase. Simple, isn't it?

No different from a local petrol station reducing the price of petrol. They sell more.

 

[yorksrob]

The whole point of adjusting prices is to influence demand.
Good old, basic market economics.

Well yes, but that does beg the question why they are influencing demand in the way they are. If the South Eastern is suffering overcrowding (which it always seems to be in the peak) it seems counter-intuitive to price them on to the existing over-crowded bit.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . If the South Eastern is suffering overcrowding (which it always seems to be in the peak) it seems counter-intuitive to price them on to the existing over-crowded bit.

Well, yes, you're quite right. The, other, big variable balance in economics is, of course: SUPPLY and DEMAND.
Change what you supply and you change the demand. And I guess most of us on here would agree that SE would ideally improve the SUPPLY of train services.
That would make a dramatic improvement.

But in the absence of having anything new to supply, they could still manipulate prices to adjust demand - and the differential between Classic and HS1 seems such an obvious candidate for adjustment.