How is HS1 domestic doing

[466.networkers]

If the trains are running at 140mph but timed for 125/6mph then doesn't that just mean they sit at stations for ages?

What do passengers think about this?

Well, a lot of the Javelin's to Faversham arrive on average 2-3 minutes early on a down run, the up run, it's about 1 minute, maximum I've been early is 2 minutes.

Edited to add: 395 005 doesn't seem to have been running for some months?

I think I saw it last Saturday, might have even been on it, I don't really note down numbers.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

^^^^^

Thank you, 466. It's the only one of the 395s I need for haulage.

 

[Hager98]

Is the last 23:55 train to Faversham busy?

 

[jon0844]

Is there any reason you can't run trains into Kent later at night? Does Network Rail take automatic possession at a set time every day, as they appear to do on the ECML?

Given that St Pancras is open 24 hours, I'd have thought that trains running until around 0100-0200 would do well all week, but especially at weekends. The loadings on FCC for the 0036 and 0136/0141 show that there's enough custom (and FCC is no doubt losing a fair bit of revenue by not actively 'protecting' them). The Thameslink route is also busy, and not everyone is going to/from an airport.

Another thing I'd like to see is 24 hour running on lines where it should be possible to shut down 2 out of 4 tracks for maintenance and run shuttle services, similar to those running during emergencies (e.g. the snow timetable). It's a shame no party suggested that in their transport plans.

 

[devon_metro]

Is there any reason you can't run trains into Kent later at night? Does Network Rail take automatic possession at a set time every day, as they appear to do on the ECML?

Given that St Pancras is open 24 hours, I'd have thought that trains running until around 0100-0200 would do well all week, but especially at weekends. The loadings on FCC for the 0036 and 0136/0141 show that there's enough custom (and FCC is no doubt losing a fair bit of revenue by not actively 'protecting' them). The Thameslink route is also busy, and not everyone is going to/from an airport.

Another thing I'd like to see is 24 hour running on lines where it should be possible to shut down 2 out of 4 tracks for maintenance and run shuttle services, similar to those running during emergencies (e.g. the snow timetable). It's a shame no party suggested that in their transport plans.

Similar to between Paddington & Reading, where there is an hourly overnight service, with the exception of between 0200 and 0300. (from Paddington)

 

[A60K]

Whether it's possible to run an overnight service on a four-track route depends largely on the layout of the tracks - if they're paired by use (Down Fast, Up Fast, Down Slow, Up Slow) as on the Great Western (or WCML) it's a lot easier to close one pair of lines.

The Great Northern route is Down Slow, Down Fast, Up Fast, Up Slow which makes organising a two-track possession a lot trickier, and in some cases impossible.

 

[Geezertronic]

Whether it's possible to run an overnight service on a four-track route depends largely on the layout of the tracks - if they're paired by use (Down Fast, Up Fast, Down Slow, Up Slow) as on the Great Western (or WCML) it's a lot easier to close one pair of lines.

The Great Northern route is Down Slow, Down Fast, Up Fast, Up Slow which makes organising a two-track possession a lot trickier, and in some cases impossible.

I think I am right in saying that is only the case on the WCML South, north of Rugby on the Trent Valley it goes to the 2nd configuration you mention

 

[Chafford1]

This video from the Rail Performance Society times a 395 travelling London bound from Ebbsfleet - maximum recorded 128mph.


This video from the Rail Performance Society times a 395 travelling London bound from Ebbsfleet - maximum recorded 128mph.

http://www.youtube.com/user/railperf#p/a/u/2/-IB1ZXFZjmg

 

[Mintona]

It depends which driver you get. Some drive at about 205-210kmh and get everywhere spot on time, some go up to 220-225kmh and get everywhere a minute early or so. Different drivers have their own driving style.

 

[Southern]

Dover Bound Services have the habit of arriving at Folkestone West 3 - 4 mins early.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Following on from earlier, I have made some enquiries about my elusive 395 005 haulage; it appears that this unit is actually "sidelined" at ashford at the moment ( along with a couple of others! ) on account of demand being lower than expected, meaning fewer 12 car sets required.

So it looks like I'll have to wait until one of the others requires maintenance and they rotate the units...

 

[jon0844]

I used c2c earlier this week and was surprised to see no trains on HS1 whenever we were alongside it.

This was between 6.30-7pm.

Now there was either a problem that stopped all trains, or there seem to be HUGE gaps between service. How many paths are there?

Is it that there are plenty of paths for, say, Eurostar - but then the physical limit of the tunnel itself? That would mean plenty of room for many more 395s to run, assuming there was demand (which there would be if they dropped the supplement, I have no doubt).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Conversely, I've only twice ever seen a c2c train from a 395; I think it's just a weird result of the timings working in such a way that there is rarely something on the other line at the time of passage!

As I've mentioned earlier, the "peak burst" of down departures from St Pancras is around 17.00 - at least ½ hour to 1 hour too early to be of great use!

The rest of the day it's 1 in and 1 out every 15 minutes, but they are only running paralle to the c2c line for about 3 minutes.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure it was down to timings, and an element of 'luck', but is there more capacity there?

I agree about it being silly to have so many services at the start of rush hour, given people have to get to St Pancras first!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm sure there is more capacity, but probably not as much as the intensive peak burst suggests because there will, as has been mentioned, be some Eurostar paths that are not currently in use.

However, if they routinely path Eurostars around 395s at Stratford they could probably get more services through - but there would then be very little pathing margin to avoid a serious knock on effect should anything go wrong.

 

[jon0844]

If a 395 runs late, the driver just puts his/her 'foot' down. There seems to be quite a large recover time in the timetable.

For the tunnel itself, is there are restriction on the number of passengers that can be in there at any time (for evacuation purposes), or the length of the train or similar?

If other operators started to run services, would there be a market for a very low-cost service, starting at each end of the tunnel, where you do away with a lot of the luxuries and squeeze in 3+2 seating, less luggage space and just use it to shunt people from one country to another.

395s could then start taking international passengers, where people then board to effectively squeeze in to a train to go through the tunnel and on to other services in France. If we signed up to the Schengen Agreement, it would be even better!

Clearly the tunnel is the weakest link, given that it has to allow vehicles and freight through it too.

I don't know what the capacity issues are on the French side. Mind you, I can see that they could quite easily expand as necessary, and quicker too.

 

[anonymous0101]

If a 395 runs late, the driver just puts his/her 'foot' down. There seems to be quite a large recover time in the timetable.

For the tunnel itself, is there are restriction on the number of passengers that can be in there at any time (for evacuation purposes), or the length of the train or similar?

If other operators started to run services, would there be a market for a very low-cost service, starting at each end of the tunnel, where you do away with a lot of the luxuries and squeeze in 3+2 seating, less luggage space and just use it to shunt people from one country to another.

395s could then start taking international passengers, where people then board to effectively squeeze in to a train to go through the tunnel and on to other services in France. If we signed up to the Schengen Agreement, it would be even better!

Clearly the tunnel is the weakest link, given that it has to allow vehicles and freight through it too.

I don't know what the capacity issues are on the French side. Mind you, I can see that they could quite easily expand as necessary, and quicker too.

The recovery time is at St.Pancras where there is a 20 minute turnaround time. Most of the time the units seem to be operating in the 130 mph speed range and there is little difference between one being driven at 200 kph or 225 kph to be honest.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I was thinking more in the instance of a problem straight after departure from St Pancras, like in the case of the 395 spending over 15 minutes at Stratford recently and the following one passing through non-stop even though it was a booked call.

 

[pablo]

Hi folks,
I see in yesterday's Kent Messenger that HS1 domestic traffic is disappointing and a number of Javelins are languishing in sidings at Ashford. Says that £24 million is being wasted. I think they got that wrong. Since they cost £280 million for 29 six-car sets that's nearly £10 m a six-car set, so maybe it should be £48 million lying about.
Any likelyhood of a cascade?
Need to make HS1 domestic the eastern half of Crossrail?

 

[jon0844]

If they drop the supplement, HS1 will become a success. A number of commuters and leisure travellers will use it immediately, as against upgrading every now and then, or having a determined refusal to pay more and boycotting it completely.

Those who want (or need) to use the old line will also get more chance of a seat. Seems like a win win situation.

Well, unless you're the TOC and you are now 'losing' revenue without gaining lots of new passengers.. so you keep trains sitting around doing nothing instead.

SET couldn't drop the supplement straight away (except perhaps at weekends?) as there are lots of season ticket holders that would demand a partial refund, but it could be announced that it will be axed from a certain date. I still think it will one day be scrapped, but news like this (if true) could speed up that eventuality.

 

[yorksrob]

Speaking as someone who has used the South Eastern division regularly throughout the past twenty years and who has used both the domestic and the high speed route to Ashford on a few occasions over the past year, I can see two factors that might be supressing demand on HS1 (certainly during off-peak travel)

The first is that in the past, express services used to get to a certain point out, where they would slow down and serve some of the smaller stations, so the express train would be partially full before it comenced it's express run. The stopping train would then terminate roughly where the express train slowed down to serve the smaller stations. Certainly on the Dover route, this has been turned on it's head where the High Speed service now terminates at Dover Priory and passengers from stations to Sandwich are expected to join the Charing Cross train and change to the High speed. Frankly, lot's of them will just stay on the train to Charing Cross. The same goes for Margate via Faversham where the train starts at Faversham and doesn't have the chance to fill up with passengers from further East.

Secondly, as has been said previously, the premium will be putting a lot of people off. I travel frequently all over the country and truth be told I find a £30 off-peak return from London to Ashford quite expensive for the distance and I'm a single man with disposable income. People are going to take the cheaper option, particularly if they're leisure travellers. If South Eastern are having difficulty filling the trains, perhaps they ought to take a leaf out of South Central and Westerns book and (dare I say it) offer some advanced fares.

That said, I see these issues as relatively minor in the long term. I've no doubt that the high speed link will prove an invaluable strategic asset in the future. Whether the premium will still be there to distort passenger's travelling habits is another matter.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sure SET is hoping to rake it in on the Olympic shuttles, which is why they're making sure that Stratford International will not be part of the zonal system anytime soon.

 

[tbtc]

Wouldn't be surprised if, after 2012, they freeze the HS1 fares until they get closed to parity with the "old" Kentish routes. A straightforward cut might be hard to achieve, especially as there are season ticket holders (as mentioned above)

 

[Mintona]

Was under the impression that each train cost £6m so £24m in the sidings would be 4 trains. That accounts for two hot spares in case of train failure and two undergoing routine maintenance.

I believe 395005 is out long term with a fault, but I don't know what it is.

 

[WatcherZero]

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824624-140mph-train-service-is-reduced-after-complaints

The size of trains on a high-speed rail link have been cut in half after just four months because they are not popular enough.

Southeastern Trains has removed a total 18 carriages from six of its 29 Japanese Javelin trains linking London and Kent.

 

[Metroland]

I had a quick ride from St Pancras to Statford on one, very nice. But standard travel cards are not allowed on them, you have to have a premium or separate ticket? A daft situation because the station at Stratford was clearly well underused.

These things will take time to sort themselves out, it won't be for a couple of years until we know whether its a success.

 

[dk1]

I think Stratford International in particular will really start to take off later this year when it's directly connected to the DLR. Although a shuttle bus is currently operating from over near platform 11 at the Domestic station, a replacement bus is a massive put off for commuters & they vote with their feet not to use it.

 

[jopsuk]

No travelcards essentially makes Stratford Int, for the time being, Set-down only towards London, pick-up only towards Kent- as there miust be few crazy enough to pay for a ticket between there and St Pancras. I think this is what they're after, really- rember, during the Olympic games there will be special shuttle services

 

[jon0844]

I used it because I wanted to see the bright, shiny new train. I used it once, and have not done so since. If I go to Kent again, I may well pay the premium as a one off again - but I might also opt to just save money and go via Victoria given that I have a Z1-6 season and wouldn't need to pay for St Pancras to BZ6 OR the supplement.

It's a nice train, pretty much made of plastic and not really that inspiring - given there's no first class, buffet or anything that stands out (and some rough edges, as I cut my hand on something as I walked through - which worried the guard as I think he thought I might try and sue when all I wanted to do was point out what had happened!) but I guess you could say the same about any new train.

In most cases, a TOC getting a new train does not mean you pay extra to use it. You just go 'wow, a new train' and carry on!

Stratford International (as against Stratford station itself) is a horrid bit of concrete with walls that look totally unfinished. I really can't see what positive impression that will give to anyone at the Olympics, but guess they'll use posters/sheets or vinyls to cover up the mess. The new East London Line stations aren't exactly works of art (but the people of Milton Keynes must now feel vindicated) but they're substantially nicer than Stratford International. I accept that a station is there to perform a specific function and doesn't have to win design awards, but I still think they could have made some effort.

The fact that SET wants to keep it as some super-station that doesn't fit within the zones, nor accept Travelcards with extensions on their train, shows a high degree of arrogance that I've commented on for many months. Now it seems that I (and others here) are not the only ones to think so.

 

[anonymous0101]

The fact that SET wants to keep it as some super-station that doesn't fit within the zones, nor accept Travelcards with extensions on their train, shows a high degree of arrogance that I've commented on for many months. Now it seems that I (and others here) are not the only ones to think so.

The arrogance is well placed. For example on the new trains they are not known as conductors but as On Board Managers. I am guessing this means they are more highly trained than ordinary train guards/conductors and have extra responsabilities.