Hold The Doors!

[RichmondCommu]

G’day,

A few weeks a go I travelled up on a Thursday evening from Euston to Shenstone to see my dad as it was his birthday. To save time and not inconvenience my dad I caught a train to Lichfield TV with the intention of then catching the connecting service from the high level platform to Shenstone. I have done this on many occasions and it always works a treat.

However on this particular evening my train from Euston had been slightly delayed by an earlier bridge strike and subsequently caused us to run a few minutes late. Travelling lightly, by running up the steps I was able to board before the doors closed but another passenger with a heavy looking suitcase was not so lucky. If the guard and / or driver had seen the poor fellow and opened the doors, what would the repercussions for them have been? I appreciate that it would delayed the train but it would have been a nice gesture.

Please understand that this is not meant to be seen as a criticism which is why I’ve written this article a week or two after the event so as not to get anyone into trouble. I’m just curious to know why the doors weren’t reopened that’s all.

Thanks in advance!

Richmond Commuter!

 

[313103]

Public Performance Measures (PPM) and Delay Attribution are the primary causes as to why this gentleman missed the train. You see if a train incurs delays of 5 minutes (local services) they are then fined no matter whether the train reached its destination on time or not (PPM). With delay attribution Network Rail kick up a fuss to the TOC concerned, the TOC concerned then Gives the Guard a right royal rollicking for delaying the train. Reports then go flying around like confetti until they find out that a Guard caused the delay so then Network Rail fine the TOC. If a Guard does this on a regular occasion (you remember the kind always concerned about Customer service) he/she could then be subject to the disciplinary procedure under the item Poor Performance.

That is the one reason why at some stations even though the train is due to leave say at xx.29 time the doors on the train are sometimes closed between 30 seconds and 2 minutes before actual departure. Even if you are on the platform standing next to a set of doors, they will remain closed so the trains wheels are moving at dead on xx.29. Not xx.29 and 30 seconds. Absolutley dead on.

Its all about ticking boxes.

 

[First class]

Public Performance Measures (PPM) and Delay Attribution are the primary causes as to why this gentleman missed the train. You see if a train incurs delays of 5 minutes (local services) they are then fined no matter whether the train reached its destination on time or not (PPM). With delay attribution Network Rail kick up a fuss to the TOC concerned, the TOC concerned then Gives the Guard a right royal rollicking for delaying the train. Reports then go flying around like confetti until they find out that a Guard caused the delay so then Network Rail fine the TOC. If a Guard does this on a regular occasion (you remember the kind always concerned about Customer service) he/she could then be subject to the disciplinary procedure under the item Poor Performance.

That is the one reason why at some stations even though the train is due to leave say at xx.29 time the doors on the train are sometimes closed between 30 seconds and 2 minutes before actual departure. Even if you are on the platform standing next to a set of doors, they will remain closed so the trains wheels are moving at dead on xx.29. Not xx.29 and 30 seconds. Absolutley dead on.

Its all about ticking boxes.

If a train is timed to DEPART (LEAVE) at xx29 then it is right for the doors to close at xx28 and 30 seconds or similar. People think that xx29 is the latest they can board, they are wrong.

Also, consider my local network for an example,

LIVERPOOL CENTRAL. Time is 1537.

The 1538 Southport arrives into Platform 2. The guard has closed the doors. He sees someone come running down the platform, so lets him on, going through the Close Doors procedure again.
By the time the guard has given the RTS signal to the driver, the time is 15:40. Trains require a 2 minute headway.

The 1540 Ormskirk service on Platform 1 is now delayed until at least 15:42. This has now delayed the 15:43a from Southport.

Re-opening the doors has now delayed 3 trains, maybe just for a matter of minutes, but perhaps the 15:44 Hunts Cross now misses it's path across Allerton Jn, further delayed or delay to a Class 1.

Customers have a responsibility to ensure they are ready to board the train before the departure time.

 

[thefab444]

Customers have a responsibility to ensure they are ready to board the train before the departure time.

What if they've made all reasonable effort to ensure that is the case, by planning their journeys with adequate connectional time (some people seem to think +2 connections are reliable!), but have been let down either by Network Rail or a TOC?

 

[Greenback]

What if they've made all reasonable effort to ensure that is the case, by planning their journeys with adequate connectional time (some people seem to think +2 connections are reliable!), but have been let down either by Network Rail or a TOC?

Then they wil miss the train and have to catch the next one!

The passengers will be able to claim compensation, they will not be left starnded on late night services, and in any case connections are held where circumstances justify it.

 

[142094]

You often see some guards reopening the doors if someone is late - I know that Northern do this quite often but not all the time at some of the larger stations they serve. On the other hand, I've seen the doors closed 30 seconds before departure only for the unit to sit for a few minutes to get the off signal, and the doors have remained shut.

 

[dcmbarton]

The Cross-City trains do tend to depart on time because they're in such a tight schedule with trains virtually every 10 mins further down the line during the day. The other problem at LTV is that it's quite difficult to see, especially if it's a 6-coach train which is often the case in the evening. It would be much better if the guard operated the doors from the middle of the train, as then they could see whether anyone was coming - is this possible? Certainly with 6-coach trains, the rear coach goes behind the bushes at the end of the platform.

 

[cuccir]

Then they wil miss the train and have to catch the next one!

The passengers will be able to claim compensation, they will not be left starnded on late night services, and in any case connections are held where circumstances justify it.

Indeed - the question wouldn't be posed if the connecting train had been 5, or 15, minutes late. It's just that in the case described by the OP it was a borderline delay.

 

[Anvil1984]

You often see some guards reopening the doors if someone is late - I know that Northern do this quite often but not all the time at some of the larger stations they serve. On the other hand, I've seen the doors closed 30 seconds before departure only for the unit to sit for a few minutes to get the off signal, and the doors have remained shut.

Yes but in the case of the latter there is nearly always a door for passengers to get on, (i.e the one the guard is despatching from) otherwise we couldnt give the driver the signal to go

 

[WatcherZero]

Problem at the larger stations with frequent services is if you wait for someone running for the train then they will be followed by another and another. you have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Yew]

Im sure ive heard a guard see somone coming and shout "Run!"

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Im sure ive heard a guard see somone coming and shout "Run!"

I'm sure you have. It's quite common.

 

[Nick O. Teen]

Problem at the larger stations with frequent services is if you wait for someone running for the train then they will be followed by another and another. you have to draw the line somewhere.

There's no easy answer to this.

Basingstoke is a particular problem for us, as we go from platform 5, which is a bay. Even if I leave it 'til 10 seconds before departure time before giving the driver the 'close doors', I can guarantee that some poor soul will come bombing round the corner, having just got off another train. In the end, it comes down to discretion, and I will claim 'Putting Customers First' as my defence.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The Cross-City trains do tend to depart on time because they're in such a tight schedule with trains virtually every 10 mins further down the line during the day. The other problem at LTV is that it's quite difficult to see, especially if it's a 6-coach train which is often the case in the evening. It would be much better if the guard operated the doors from the middle of the train, as then they could see whether anyone was coming - is this possible? Certainly with 6-coach trains, the rear coach goes behind the bushes at the end of the platform.

I appreciate that the Cross-City line is very busy and that a slight delay will have a knock on affect all the way down the line. I'm not sure how long the poor fellow would have had to wait for his train but i bet it would have been longer than 10 minutes as most of the trains terminate at City. You couldn't help but feel sorry for him.

On to your second point, if the doors can't be operated from the middle of the train what we need are remote controlled doors! That way the guard could stand at the top of steps looking out for hapless passengers before walking on to the train and shutting the doors. Simples!

 

[Mark_re]

In the aftermath of Hatfield, when I was still at school, GNER was running a hugely revised timetable. We'd finish school at Jesmond at 1600 and our usual train back to Durham from Newcastle Central was revised from 1626 to 1619, which made it a tight connection to get back home in time for Neighbours. About ten of us, in our posh school uniforms came legging it down on to platform 3 at 1617 to find the doors closed and locked (presumably emergency timetable confusion). As a far cheekier youth than I am now, I complained to a member of the station staff, who very kindly communicated with the guard and reopened the doors. We all piled on board. The train was subsequently heavily delayed, due to a malfunctioning door. So we all got off and jumped on a Saltburn pacer due to depart at 1633 from platform 8.

 

[Steve Bray]

This subject is a big bugbear of mine. I hear what is said about the box ticking. I also understand that passengers should often get themselves more organised and get to the platform on time. But at some stage or another, for a variety of reasons, we've all had to run for a train. I have seen many instances where for the sake of about 5 SECONDS, passengers off a connecting adjacent platform service have doors closed on them. I wish every train/platform staff was as enlightened as Nick-o-Teen and put the customers first, rather then be intimidated by the unseen box tickers.

 

[O L Leigh]

It's a bugbear of mine too.

I'm prepared to give a little leeway provided I'm not already late and the punter(s) are making a bit of an effort, otherwise once the doors have been shut then that's it. Wait for the next one. The problem is that they often come puffing onto the platform just as I've released the brakes and then give me verbal for not letting them on.

But to pick your points, Steve, we don't keep the departure times secret. They're widely published and available to anyone who wants them. I appreciate that sometimes things happen and you get there late, but under such circumstances you should expect to miss the train. A 15 second delay doesn't sound like much, but multiply that by every station stop you have to make and that soon mounts up into a significant delay.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

Thankfully at night, dispatchers at King's Cross seem more than willing to allow a train to leave up to a minute late - IF there's a steady stream of people running. 60 seconds is actually quite a long time, but not if the train is at the front part of the platform!

Presumably most services can make up time at night (which seems to be shown by many services actually finishing early).

 

[jay jay]

For me its perfectly simple! People wait for trains, trains dont wait for people. Unless it is in circumstances such as service disruption and the last trains connections of the day because of that disruption are involved.
As has been pointed out on here, TOCs make train times readily available by all sorts of means and it is up to the passenger to be at the right place at the right time.

 

[lm321412]

I remember last March when at MAN. The TPE 185 had shut its doors, but with a young couple running for the train, the conductor kindly let them through his section onto the train, which I thought was quite admirable and he still left bang on-time.

 

[trainophile]

The Merseyrail Northern Line service from Southport gets to Moorfields one minute before the Chester train departs from the lower level of the station, several hundred yards through passageways and escalators.

As the Chester service is occasionally half a minute or so late, it is worth a mad dash to try to catch it (although now that they run every 15 minutes it isn't quite as annoying to miss it as it used to be). Sometimes I'm lucky, sometimes I'm not. If I get to the top of the second escalator and there are people coming up it I know I'm too late.

However on odd occasions I have appeared round the corner onto the platform JUST as the doors are shutting, and the guard has taken pity and opened the doors again. There must be something in my manner that he knows I want the Chester train, as it's not the only one to go from that platform! I hope he doesn't get into trouble when he does this as it is so kind and considerate of him. Moorfields isn't the most pleasant place to wait, even just for 15 minutes.

 

[dk1]

Im sure ive heard a guard see somone coming and shout "Run!"

Or even "Run Forest Run" as one of our catering ladies likes to shout

 

[pendolino]

Or even "Run Forest Run" as one of our catering ladies likes to shout

I know a few staff who say that, but discreetly, and not directly to the passenger!

The way I see it is that I can either wait 30 secs and help out one late passenger, or I can leave on time and ensure the other 200 or so people on board get to their destination on time.

But it does depend on the situation; if it's an elderly passenger or parent with pushchair for example, or anyone making an effort to get to the train, I'm more inclined to give them a bit of leeway, than if it's someone standing on the platform as I pull who then wanders along the length of the train rather than get on at the nearest door, while all the time playing with their phone.

 

[185]

I used to try test the water, and see whether or not last minute runners would start becoming horrid first, but I would usually reopen the doors aslong as it was safe, and within the rulebook. Using the whistle is good practise.

Always good to leave a fool behind that goes through life being vile to everyone, especially a former MP who screamed "OPEN THESE DOORS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!?!?!"...to which I replied "Err, no. Have you forgotten again? Bless. Byebye."

*SLAM* Ding ding.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Thanks for all your replies!

I really only started this thread because when said passenger had reached the top of the steps the train was still stationary although of course the doors had been closed. Whether you got on to the train was basicaly down to luck i.e. you were at the back of the train from Euston, had little in the way of luggage and were fit enough to race up the stairs!

I've learned a lot from this thread and had no idea that there was so much pressure to get things away on time. It’s a pity that train crew aren't given more discretion when a situation occurs which is clearly not the fault of either the railway or the passenger!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Train crew are given all the discretion they need in my experience. You just have to draw a line somewhere. I have lost count of the number of times I have seen somebody desperately running for the train, stopped to let them on, looked up and seen somebody else in the exact same spot running. This can repeat ad infinitum in certain locations.
The train crew want to keep the train running as booked, especially on the busy suburban lines where 30 seconds at one station can be five or ten minutes at the terminal because you missed your path over a junction or into a platform.

 

[NightatLaira]

On a slightly off-topic note - the flip side to this is that I have seen trains leave early before - normally only by a few seconds; but on one memorable occasion I was running to catch the xx08 cross country service beginning at Edinburgh Waverley to somewhere, and the doors closed at xx06 and so many seconds - initially I thought this was just an automatic closure as there was still 2mins to go before the train left - but then I realise that the guard had done this upon being given the 'off' by a member of dispatch, and that the doors were now locked. In slight shock I knocked on the door the guard was standing on the other side of and was met by a shrugging of the shoulders. I was fuming and the guard did nothing. To make matters worse, the train then stood there for another 30 seconds, before the clock reached xx07 and so many seconds and then left the station a full 30 seconds ahead of schedule, and a whole minute before the doors could have techinically been locked at (which would have been xx:07mins and 30secs for a xx08 departure iirc.

By the time the station clock had reached xx08 and 00 seconds the train was already into the Calton Tunnels. And I checked with my watch and phone and the station clock was correct and not running slow.

I got no sympathy from the ticket office and was made to buy another ticket - wrote in and complained, received a £20 voucher - roughly equivocal to my excess (mins a couple of pennies)

Still not happy though.. leaving early is a big no-no for a train methinks

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Northern make it perfectly Clear to us that they want the train moving bang on the second its due out, so doors shut 20 seconds before and sorry to be blunt (but this is the official line) doors close and we go if your late that is your look out. (may I suggest a more accurate watch) lol. with most routes in South Manchester up to capacity even a minutes delay can cause a knock on effect.

 

[Aictos]

Northern make it perfectly Clear to us that they want the train moving bang on the second its due out, so doors shut 20 seconds before and sorry to be blunt (but this is the official line) doors close and we go if your late that is your look out. (may I suggest a more accurate watch) lol. with most routes in South Manchester up to capacity even a minutes delay can cause a knock on effect.

FCC is the same, one thing that does annoy me is why passengers have to walk by a dozen doors to get to their seat when it's time for the train to leave- don't they realise they can get on in the first door they see and walk though the 3 coach 313s (obviously not between the units).

Some passengers seem to think FCC run the old non corridor stock that used to run in the 70s!

 

[HST Power]

FCC is the same, one thing that does annoy me is why passengers have to walk by a dozen doors to get to their seat when it's time for the train to leave- don't they realise they can get on in the first door they see and walk though the 3 coach 313s (obviously not between the units).

I know for fact I'm not the only forum member who does this, but I do have a habbit of trying to get into the coach that will drop me off nearest to the steps at my destination station!

So am I correct in saying that if a service is delayed, a TOC gets a penalty?