Hold The Doors!

[ralphchadkirk]

I know for fact I'm not the only forum member who does this, but I do have a habbit of trying to get into the coach that will drop me off nearest to the steps at my destination station!

So am I correct in saying that if a service is delayed, a TOC gets a penalty?

Whoever causes the delay gets the delay attributed to them, and if it is a TOC, they are fined for it per minute.

 

[HST Power]

Whoever causes the delay gets the delay attributed to them, and if it is a TOC, they are fined for it per minute.

What if a train has to wait for a HST/fast service to pass? Does this still count, or would the waiting minutes already be counted into the journey plan?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

What if a train has to wait for a HST/fast service to pass? Does this still count, or would the waiting minutes already be counted into the journey plan?

The waiting minutes would most probably already be counted into the timetable.

This link should help you:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...nts\Delay Attribution Guide&pageid=2889&root=

 

[HST Power]

The waiting minutes would most probably already be counted into the timetable.

This link should help you:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...nts\Delay Attribution Guide&pageid=2889&root=

Thank you for the link. The documents brought a few interesting points to my attention and I might just be dropping FCC an email.

 

[t o m]

It's not like in the old films when the train is leaving and you'd just run up, open the door and jump on

 

[HST Power]

It's not like in the old films when the train is leaving and you'd just run up, open the door and jump on

I heard somewhere that a certain TOC were getting rid of their slam doors units, can remember which one though.

 

[1V53]

ATW delay attribution will contact us asking why a train was 3 minutes late between x and y. If we cannot give a plausible explanation that gets logged as a traincrew delay. Traincrew managers then get the delay against them, getting a daily report which they investigate further as sometimes they can bat it back, so any traincrew regularly delaying trains for no apparent reason will get spoken to for negatively impacting on their managers stats.

 

[trainophile]

Doesn't seem fair if they are penalised because they were delayed by getting a wheelchair passenger on board. I saw this recently - someone had to go and find the ramp, which took a couple of minutes.

 

[Greenback]

I hope that would count as a plausible explanation!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Trains can leave early in some circumstances, we have a standing instruction to despatch when ready from some stations at certain times.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure that would be fine, although they do ask for advance notice and usually have the ramps ready in plenty of time.

 

[313103]

Trains can leave early in some circumstances, we have a standing instruction to despatch when ready from some stations at certain times.

Not true on London Overground, trains only run to the scheduled timetable. Under no circumstances can a train leave early. Many Guards have letters threatening disciplinary action will be taken against them (myself included) if they leave a station early. When control say to me can you leave a station early (normally Gunnersbury) i request they send me the instruction in writing (they cant), that i have had an absolute instruction that i am not allowed to leave early otherwise i will be disciplined for it.

 

[jon0844]

I wish bus drivers would follow timetables as strictly!

Trains running early are rare. In many cases, it's accidental or the working timetable differs from the public one - or there are specific, clear, policies in place like saying doors may close 30-60 seconds early. In this case, when the train leaves is immaterial as you'll have lost your chance to board.

Buses, on the other hand, often run early - especially at night where you're on a route that sees a driver finishing at the depot and signing off. Ten minutes early isn't impossible, and there's nobody you can even call at night to complain to - let alone expect to be paid for the taxi home.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Not true on London Overground, trains only run to the scheduled timetable. Under no circumstances can a train leave early. Many Guards have letters threatening disciplinary action will be taken against them (myself included) if they leave a station early. When control say to me can you leave a station early (normally Gunnersbury) i request they send me the instruction in writing (they cant), that i have had an absolute instruction that i am not allowed to leave early otherwise i will be disciplined for it.

I don't disagree with you at all, but on SWT between Raynes Park and Waterloo there is a train every 3 minutes in the peak so we are permitted to depart when ready, it helps train performance and the passengers still have the same gap between trains.

 

[HST Power]

I hope that would count as a plausible explanation!

I'm sure that would be OK.

 

[Anvil1984]

Occasionally we get orders to go early, often when you are getting close to being dangerously overcrowded due to many a reason and you are told to get out of there ASAP. I have had that once or twice from control

 

[Steve Bray]

Going back to Jay Jay's reply (#19), it's not as simple as he thinks. There are many situations when you will not necessarily know what train you will catch. For instance, I went to a concert at the O2 last year - my first time. I had a rough idea of when the show would end, but I wasn't exactly familiar with how long it would take me to get out of the venue after the show, whether there would be queues to get on to the Jubilee Line etc. It was only when I was in the tube, that I could start to work out what mainline train I could catch or which station I would go to. And that might mean that you are cutting it fine and you sprint for your train. If you have raced up the escalators, negotiated the concourse and entered the platform to then find that the doors are being closed 30 seconds ahead of departure, then you get a bit miffed! I can think of many other situations.

 

[causton]

Buses, on the other hand, often run early - especially at night where you're on a route that sees a driver finishing at the depot and signing off. Ten minutes early isn't impossible, and there's nobody you can even call at night to complain to - let alone expect to be paid for the taxi home.

Not that in the daytime the number to call to complain to is any useful - as I called up in the day to check where the day pass was valid and they said every service, then every service except for 2 where they couldn't be used anywhere, then I asked them to double check and it was actually every route except for a part of 2 of them! (700 and 712/4)

On the other hand, I often see trains leaving Potters Bar a minute early late at night... probably because the WTT is different though!

 

[1V53]

Going back to Jay Jay's reply (#19), it's not as simple as he thinks. There are many situations when you will not necessarily know what train you will catch. For instance, I went to a concert at the O2 last year - my first time. I had a rough idea of when the show would end, but I wasn't exactly familiar with how long it would take me to get out of the venue after the show, whether there would be queues to get on to the Jubilee Line etc. It was only when I was in the tube, that I could start to work out what mainline train I could catch or which station I would go to. And that might mean that you are cutting it fine and you sprint for your train. If you have raced up the escalators, negotiated the concourse and entered the platform to then find that the doors are being closed 30 seconds ahead of departure, then you get a bit miffed! I can think of many other situations.

So what?! The train runs to a timetable. If you choose to rush to a train that you don't have time to catch, and miss it, why are you miffed? If you had ample time to catch it you wouldn't be running!

If you were on the train in good time, and wanted to be home on time, the guard holds the doors for a runner, the train leaves a tiny bit late, gets held up the line due to missing it's path and then you were late, surely you'd be equally miffed?!

There's no exaggeration there, it can happen. Trains close doors 30 seconds before time, end of. We've seen stupid people rant and rave at airline staff for arriving late for a plane, and on those it's at least half hour to an hour before departure that you need to be there for....

 

[HST Power]

Occasionally we get orders to go early, often when you are getting close to being dangerously overcrowded due to many a reason and you are told to get out of there ASAP. I have had that once or twice from control

Better early than late!

 

[LE Greys]

So what?! The train runs to a timetable. If you choose to rush to a train that you don't have time to catch, and miss it, why are you miffed? If you had ample time to catch it you wouldn't be running!

If you were on the train in good time, and wanted to be home on time, the guard holds the doors for a runner, the train leaves a tiny bit late, gets held up the line due to missing it's path and then you were late, surely you'd be equally miffed?!

There's no exaggeration there, it can happen. Trains close doors 30 seconds before time, end of. We've seen stupid people rant and rave at airline staff for arriving late for a plane, and on those it's at least half hour to an hour before departure that you need to be there for....

On the couple of occasions I've turned up late for flights (usually because of bad traffic jams) I've simply been put on the next one without any extra charge. It's inevitable when one form of transport relies on another. Would they hold a train for a late-running ferry today?

On the other hand, I once heard a story about a certain railtour making a stop to pick up at Wolverhampton (on the way to the Talyllyn I believe) where one passenger suddenly realised that camera and tripod had remained on the other platform. He bailed out, dashed over the bridge, grabbed the camera, dashed back and reboarded, so the train left two minutes late. On the way back, there were terrible delays getting through Wolves. Guess why!

 

[2Dogbox]

313103 is exactly right. I would love to be "nice" more often to my passengers but we simply cannot go even a few seconds late for waiting for late runners. PPM, and up here "Right Time Railway" means we have to be moving at the departure time or we have "delay attribution" on the other end of the phone.

 

[Steve Bray]

But you can't really compare trains with planes. The boarding procedures are completely different and in many instances you have a ticket for a particular flight whereas for a train you don't. On the other hand, I've never been miffed about arriving late because others ran for a train, or a train was held up awaiting connecting passengers. Personally, I've never seen a signal turn from green to red because a train pulled away 5 seconds late resulting in a lost path.

 

[Greenback]

It's probably not there that the path will be lost, but further on down the line where the train may be 4 or 5 minutes down thanks to a 30 second late departure. On intensively used lines, these delays have a cumulative effect on the whole service. It's worth remembering that in Japan, which has often been held up as prime example of a punctual railway, it is pretty rare for trains to be held whilst people run down the stairs or along the platform.

 

[jon0844]

I think that at night you can perhaps allow for this by adjusting the working timetable to, in effect, give a minute or two margin. Of course, you could only do this at one or two stations (like the starting station, or a major interchange along the way).

Given the example of coming out of a theatre/O2 or whatever, and the rather hit-and-miss state of the tubes at night (often a long gap then many bunched up, complete with trains then held to regulate the service), it may make a difference and not affect the running at all. Yes, you might get some people moaning that the train appears to be delayed, but that can be our little secret!

But, in my case of leaving the O2 and rushing to get to London Bridge to get a FCC train - there are rather too many trains coming and going to hold anything up. Unless it's very late, I'll now stick to the Northern Line and go to King's Cross St Pancras and not even try to rush for a train if there's only a few minutes.

 

[tempests1]

Doesn't seem fair if they are penalised because they were delayed by getting a wheelchair passenger on board. I saw this recently - someone had to go and find the ramp, which took a couple of minutes.

In the delay attribution guide (Ralph posted a link in an earlier post) there is a dedicated code that gets used when a train is delayed due to disabled passengers joining RC Assisting a disabled person joining/alighting, pre-booked & RQ Assisting a disabled person joining/alighting, Un-booked So the traincrew would not be penalised for this. It is quite an Interesting document with a delay code for just about everything.

 

[Smudger105e]

goes behind the bushes at the end of the platform.

I've had to do that from time to time

 

[313103]

A prime example of this kind of behaviour. Yesterday i was working a train from Stratford to Willesden Junction. The train left Stratford Dead on time. At Hackney Wick i blew the whistle waited for the platform to clear, once that had happened i closed the doors, and guess what a passenger come running down the stairs and another held the doors open. Now as you know because of the way new doors operate by sensor the doors will try to close three times and if they dont they stay open for two minutes. This what took place, so before we left i went into the train straight up to the a group of people standing by the same set of doors and told them that i am glad you think its ok to block the doors, you have caused a 4 minute delay to a service that runs every 8 minutes. I then said you keep doing it i am here for another 8 hours. Suffice to say the train arrived atWillesden Junction 4 minutes late. You see i opearte on the principle if a passenger thinks he is getting a taxi service i will the train accordingly and will not even try to make up time, i will wait for every one and even tell them not to rush because i am in no hurry because the passengers on board are not in any hurry either. If i am late for work i get a bollicking and risk trains being cancelled and if i do to often i will get the boot.

 

[tempests1]

Reactionary delays can stretch for hundreds of miles, they say when Birmingham New Street sneezes the rest of the network gets a cold!

 

[1V53]

I think that at night you can perhaps allow for this by adjusting the working timetable to, in effect, give a minute or two margin. Of course, you could only do this at one or two stations (like the starting station, or a major interchange along the way).

Given the example of coming out of a theatre/O2 or whatever, and the rather hit-and-miss state of the tubes at night (often a long gap then many bunched up, complete with trains then held to regulate the service), it may make a difference and not affect the running at all. Yes, you might get some people moaning that the train appears to be delayed, but that can be our little secret!

But, in my case of leaving the O2 and rushing to get to London Bridge to get a FCC train - there are rather too many trains coming and going to hold anything up. Unless it's very late, I'll now stick to the Northern Line and go to King's Cross St Pancras and not even try to rush for a train if there's only a few minutes.

Sorry but your suggestion defies logic! Delay a train but only on paper, so that those arriving late can catch it?! That's the most ridiculous idea I have heard for a very long time!