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High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

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JohnCarlson

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I'd have proposed the Tees Valley station for the present site of Tees Valley airport. With the Tees Valley Bishop Auckland-Saltburn line electrified it'd be about 12 minutes out of Middlesbrough & 6 minutes out of Darlington, so probably quicker either way, but then again, HS2 will allow both Darlington & Middlesbrough to get a much better ICEC service.

As for York, no. Firstly, because it's massively out of the way, adding at least 15 miles to the line, and all the costs with it. Secondly because it actually doesn't have that much 'clout'. York is probably the UK's most glorified commuter town, certainly up there with Bath. Both great tourist destinations, but most of the people who live there are commuters, which is why every train into Leeds during the day is so rammed. Besides, like Darlington, York will still have a very good direct ICEC service to London, and given the TPE electrification will allow journeys into Leeds in about 20 minutes (express) or 35 minutes (stopper), I think the number changing for a southbound service might actually be pretty good, especially if the 'South Orbital Connection' Amersham-Heathrow-Ashford line I proposed gets built.

Oh, and the line definitely should serve Sheffield, because of the huge regional benefits of doing Leeds-Sheffield in 20 minutes, rather than 45.

Forgive me but I find it funny that you refer to York as a glorified commuter town while suggesting building an HS2 station at Durham Tees Valley Airport. While I hope it survives its passenger numbers have been falling drastically and while things are reported to have improved slightly the situation still dire.

I can understand the idea of high speed bypass of Darlington if a high speed line North of the Leeds area ever gets built. However it would make much better sense to use the existing station for the stopping HS2 services.

Hers why. All of the trains your talking about stopping at a Darlington Parkway already stop at Darlington. Yet just about every existing ECML train would have to be diverted out of Darlington into this new station to give connectivity to places like Durham and Thirsk . The problem is then what do you do with the existing Darlington station? Its Graded II star and already underused for the size so its not like an cost savings could be made in closing it down.

It might be that classic ECML services still call there but then your deliberately getting into the awkward territory of having trains going to the same place stopping at only one of two completely separate stations in the same town which is hardly a positive move. Much better to have everything in the one place. An probably cheaper too.

If ever a classing station was ready for HS services its Darlington. Its fairly central and has space for car parking. More importantly its platforms are massive with plenty of room for more and extensions to the existing ones.

Yes York is close to Leeds but Leeds is also close to York. As mentioned where exactly a Leeds HS2 station would go is a toughie to call because the existing station is already full, set to get fuller and has little room to spread out. How close a high speed line could actually get to Leeds without having to drop to classic speed is something I would like to know. Google Earth suggests not very without massive demolition.

Here's a thought, why not bring HS2 on the ECML just south of Doncaster upgrade the Selby diversion to four tracks at 220 mph and then you can run straight into York and build the HS2 station in the freight bypass yard where their is plenty of space.

This would also give Doncaster an Hull access to HS2
 
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tbtc

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If we do this right we need to forget the Victorian blueprint.

Places like York and Darlington are "railway towns", but maybe HS2 should be aiming for the bigger cities.

If you want to run London - Edinburgh then you have to go one side of the Pennines or the other. The current train service goes via Newcastle, but the faster route (as the crow flies) would be up the west side of the country (Edinburgh being to the west of Carlisle, so a more direct journey).

Similarly, from Leeds to Newcastle you forget about York and head directly north.
 

JohnCarlson

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If we do this right we need to forget the Victorian blueprint.

Places like York and Darlington are "railway towns", but maybe HS2 should be aiming for the bigger cities.

If you want to run London - Edinburgh then you have to go one side of the Pennines or the other. The current train service goes via Newcastle, but the faster route (as the crow flies) would be up the west side of the country (Edinburgh being to the west of Carlisle, so a more direct journey).

Similarly, from Leeds to Newcastle you forget about York and head directly north.


I am quite happy to forget about the Victorian ideas but we've got what we've got and even HS2 hasn't got an unlimited budget. Indeed Darlington and York are railway towns but most places have lost their original reason for coming into existence so not sure why that should be important.


If an HS2 line were to go north it would definitely have to skirt Darlington but as I have already said I cant see the logic of a new parkway station. If HS2 trains are going to stop there they have to slow down some distance away and they may as well stop at Darlington Bank Top where the infrastructure already exists than the middle of a field where there is an airport that has less passengers than my local chip shop has customers.

If someone wants to identify a sensible site for a station in Leeds feel free. A station at York for Leeds my not be the best option but it seems for more sensible than trying to build one at Crossgates or tunnel under the centre of Lees which have both been suggested here.

I would build HS2 for Scotland up the East Coast. The West may be closer as the crow flies but the terrain is mountainous and the WCML and its motorway shadow have probably already taken the best routes.
 
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tbtc

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If an HS2 line were to go north it would definitely have to skirt Darlington

That's no reason to stop there though, a line from London to Glasgow/Edinburgh will skirt past lots of towns - if it stops at all of them then it won't be "High Speed"
 

jon0844

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And the old lines will remain, so nobody should lose any services and may gain faster ones.

I am sure both the ECML and WCML will still be upgraded and improved in the years ahead too. New signalling could increase capacity on those lines too.
 

yorksrob

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It also refers to data that suggests that such lines do not, in fact, regenerate the regions at all, but simply abstract further business to the capital.

This is something that worries me as well. IMO England as a country is already far too centralised.

They need to have good think about whether there will enough people willing to pay for the faster travel times, i.e. whether there will be enough commuters and business people to use the route, since these are the people more likely to value speed over price.

The other issue is that we rely on the Inter-City sector to offset some costs elsewhere. I dread to think what would happen to the rest of the railway if HS2 didn't recoup it's costs because it wouldn't be HS2 that would end up being cut, that's for sure.
 

JohnCarlson

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That's no reason to stop there though, a line from London to Glasgow/Edinburgh will skirt past lots of towns - if it stops at all of them then it won't be "High Speed"


Oh indeed. But if your not going to stop there why build a parkway station?

John
 

tbtc

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Oh indeed. But if your not going to stop there why build a parkway station?

John

With a blank sheet of paper I'd consider somewhere roughly in the Houghton le Spring/ Washington area (accessing the large population around Wearside etc, possibly with a Metro extension) as the one stop between Leeds and Newcastle.
 

JohnCarlson

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With a blank sheet of paper I'd consider somewhere roughly in the Houghton le Spring/ Washington area (accessing the large population around Wearside etc, possibly with a Metro extension) as the one stop between Leeds and Newcastle.

Well if you had a blank sheet of paper you would not have Houghton and Washington. :D

No sure how from there you would get into Newcastle on a new line and if you joined the Leamside line that would be difficult to make high speed because of the curve at Pelaw.

If you literally run due north from Leeds station you would have to tunnel quite a way under Leeds then dodge around h Harowgate. Shortly after that you would be very close to the existing ecml around Darlington. A new section could certainly be built from North of Darlington to north of Durham but from that point you would have to either have massive demolition or use the existing ecml to get into Newcastle.

Then the problems start and there are several dog legs in the track which can't be avoided and your HS2 train drops to the sped of everything else.

Fo my money of if you were Scottish the money that could be spent on the section northerly of Leeds and south of Newcastle would be far better invested in a completely new HS line north of Newcastle and South of Edinburgh.

John
 

WatcherZero

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Suggesting 40 paths are crazy, the French TGV manages 15 paths and they say 18 paths envisaged by HS2 is ambitious but barely achievable. Ive already demonstrated that the Japanese dont operate a mix of fast and slows on the same lines, the fasts take a more direct route bypassing the lines which run through the intermediate stations meaning their not sharing the same tracks as the slows and not passing at speed through stations without stopping.

As to line in Netherlands, look what a financial disaster the Chunnel was originally! now its full and struggling to squeeze more capacity in.
 

HSTEd

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Suggesting 40 paths are crazy, the French TGV manages 15 paths and they say 18 paths envisaged by HS2 is ambitious but barely achievable. Ive already demonstrated that the Japanese dont operate a mix of fast and slows on the same lines, the fasts take a more direct route bypassing the lines which run through the intermediate stations meaning their not sharing the same tracks as the slows and not passing at speed through stations without stopping.

Indeed it is insane, but that is the theoretical limit of moving block signalling technology, not necessarily what I suggest (I suggest 20tph would be far more reasonable in slack time terms), indeed I reckon 7 fast paths an hour would be a reasonable starting point. Remember TGV does not have access to moving block signalling which allows trains to follow each other relatively close to braking distances and instantaneously initiate computer controlled emergency braking should a train ahead cease to report properly or reports braking itself.

Additionally, if this is the case, why does a Google Earth (I am indeed bored enough to trace lines from Google Earth imagery) trace of the Tōkaidō Shinkansen show multiple stations with through roads between the platforms, as does conventional photography of the stations in question?

There is no particular reason why you cannot have express trains pass through intermediate stations at 200mph if you want to, blast effects can be mitigated by having barriers between the platform loops and the through roads (I believe I have seen this set-up somewhere but I can't remember where).
Additionally the crossovers are not a major issue now that we have modern swingnose designs which allow the switching to occur at speeds over 150mph.

Overall due to the extremely high speeds the express trains will attain for large parts of the journey on a dedicated line (which would presumably be engineered to allow them maintain that speed throughout) the diversions necessary to take the fast lines through the urban centres to be served by the "slow trains" add up to at most two or three minutes over the London-Birmingham run.

18 trains per hour is not going to be attained north from London any time soon, not unless we start putting 200m or shorter classic compatible trains onto the line independently rather than coupling them into 400m formations prior to the final leg over the High Speed line.
Thus the inclusion of slow train services will considerably improve the political case for the system by dismantling the commonly held belief that this line is for the benefit of Londoners and people in central Birmingham and would also improve asset utilisation from the beginning.
 

Nym

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I've seen many a post kicking about regarding this...

At HS2a opening, ie. Link into to Rugley and Tamworth (For Derby, assuming electrified to Leeds & Doncaster) also assuming CC Stock is loco haulable. I invisage the following for HS2 services.

Also assuming modifications at Manchester by either building the HS2bL station on Baring Street in time for the opening of HS2a with the lines built down to Longsight where the tunnel portal would be and linked into the current lines

Off Euston
Captive (200m or 400m, double or single deckers)

Birmingham 3tph

Classic Compatible

Manchester 3tph (200m or 400m)

The following services divide at Crewe
Liverpool & Blackpool North 1tph
Liverpool & Glasgow Central 1tph
Either Liverpool Lime Street or Manchester Victoria & Huddersfeild via Earlstown & Chester with extensions to Holyhead 1tph

Leeds 2tph (200m or 400m, build Leeds E Parkway to fit them, should already fit in the through platforms) possibly splitting at Leeds to send half onwards to Skipton, Ilkley, Bradford etc.

Doncaster 2tph
Dividing for
1tph Newcastle Central and 1tph Edinburgh (Alternate)
And serving a variety of onwards destinations: Hull Paragon, Harrogate, Middlesbrough, etc by splitting the 2tph sent.

So initially off Euston that's 10tph, but some nice tidy service level increases for Liverpool and Preston, when the captive network expands, more 400m services will be kicking about.
 

HSTEd

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I've seen many a post kicking about regarding this...

At HS2a opening, ie. Link into to Rugley and Tamworth (For Derby, assuming electrified to Leeds & Doncaster) also assuming CC Stock is loco haulable. I invisage the following for HS2 services.

Also assuming modifications at Manchester by either building the HS2bL station on Baring Street in time for the opening of HS2a with the lines built down to Longsight where the tunnel portal would be and linked into the current lines

Off Euston
Captive (200m or 400m, double or single deckers)

Birmingham 3tph

Classic Compatible

Manchester 3tph (200m or 400m)

The following services divide at Crewe
Liverpool & Blackpool North 1tph
Liverpool & Glasgow Central 1tph
Either Liverpool Lime Street or Manchester Victoria & Huddersfeild via Earlstown & Chester with extensions to Holyhead 1tph

Leeds 2tph (200m or 400m, build Leeds E Parkway to fit them, should already fit in the through platforms) possibly splitting at Leeds to send half onwards to Skipton, Ilkley, Bradford etc.

Doncaster 2tph
Dividing for
1tph Newcastle Central and 1tph Edinburgh (Alternate)
And serving a variety of onwards destinations: Hull Paragon, Harrogate, Middlesbrough, etc by splitting the 2tph sent.

So initially off Euston that's 10tph, but some nice tidy service level increases for Liverpool and Preston, when the captive network expands, more 400m services will be kicking about.

I'm not sure 3 dedicated non stop trains per hour to Birmingham is really necessary and would think it would be more reasonable to simply have all trains to Leeds and Manchester stop there (especially if they are 400m DD sets, which seems reasonable, if we are going to do this we might as well do it properly).

Once the actual system reach Manchester and Leeds 2tph to each would suffice if they were the aforementioned sets, especially as they will still retain the East Coast/Virgin services they have now. This gives 4 fast trains per hour Birmingham-London on the high speed system plus any CC services.

Is a 200m set to Blackpool North an hour really justified?
 

Nym

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But stopping all the LDS and MAN trains would mean running in and out of Birmingham to get there, defeating the object of the 30min journey time saving at Day1.

And don't underestimate the joys of lower journey times, and lower running costs of HS2 units, meaning that you could see stupidly low priced advance purchase tickets or off peak tickets.

Also, it has been expressed that the government doesn't want to run with double deck units.

When HS2bR/bL opens it would look rather different from my plans, (With Manchester W Parkway and a Y near sheffeild with the Leeds Branch, and joining the WCML at Doncaster.

Then...

Leeds and Doncaster will remain broadly the same, possibly increasing to 3tph to Leeds but the additional, like the additional Liverpool would run via Doncaster, and provide onward services to Bradford etc.

WC Side would have 6tph captive, running the Birmingham and Manchester routes, services would split now at Manchester West Parkway for running onwards to Liverpool via St Helens Jcn 2tph, Glasgow 1tph, Blackpool N via Preston 1tph.

There would then be 1tph leaving HS2 at Rugley and dividing at Crewe, that being the Chester / Holyhead & Liverpool via Runcorn service. 9tph up that side of the country, plus say, 1 international and 1 Heathrow service making 11tph.
 

HSTEd

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Why no double deck units?
After the enormous success of the TGV Duplex you would think they would be jumping at them, especially as the stated reason for this line is to gain additional capacity.

EDIT:
Advanced Purchase tickets on High speed cannot be allowed to fall to lower levels than those on the conventional trains because otherwise noone would use the conventional train service.
 

Nym

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Not a clue, I'd be jumping at them as well for the likes of Birmingham and Manchester where you could potentially resurrect a three tier class system for travel on rails, but that's another matter.

Bus yeah, captive stock double deckers would be rather nice to have, but it's what I've read in paperwork...
 

tbtc

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Advanced Purchase tickets on High speed cannot be allowed to fall to lower levels than those on the conventional trains because otherwise noone would use the conventional train service.

Of course they can, especially in the first few years of operation when the TOC will be trying to build a market for HS2 - a few "advance" cheapos would be a good way to attract new people to it, so that they encourage people to come back and use HS2 more often in the future.

The "conventional" trains will mainly be used for shorter intermediate journeys
 

HSTEd

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Not a clue, I'd be jumping at them as well for the likes of Birmingham and Manchester where you could potentially resurrect a three tier class system for travel on rails, but that's another matter.

Bus yeah, captive stock double deckers would be rather nice to have, but it's what I've read in paperwork...

If all captive stock was double decker and all trains on the high speed line were timetabled to operate as 400m combinations the same level of service could be provided with a tiny number of paths.
(3 x 6 carriage Classic-compatible units is roughly 400m)

EDIT:
2tph CC to Leeds would enable clockface hourly to Hull, Sunderland/Middlesbrough and one of the secondary leeds stations (Bradford, Harrogate and Skipton) with 6 carriages each, and 2 9 carriage trains to Newcastle/Edinburgh with different stopping patterns.
That seems reasonable to me.
 
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jon0844

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I am not sure we need that sort of capacity yet (or when HS2 opens) so besides the extra cost of staffing the trains, I'd still favour smaller trains that are a bit more frequent than Eurostar style trains (in terms of numbers) at a lower frequency.

The advantage is that over the years, you can lengthen trains, increase the frequency and introduce double decker trains. No need to run HS2 to capacity from day one!
 

HSTEd

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I make a reasonable fast timetable as (once Manchester/Leeds is open)

2tph London-Birmingham-Leeds [400m DD]
2tph London-Birmingham-Manchester [400m DD]
1tph London-Leeds-Hull & Secondary Leeds & Sunderland or Middlesbrough [CC 6/6/6]
1tph London-Leeds-Newcastle & Edinburgh [CC 9/9]
1tph London-Manchester-Liverpool & Glasgow [CC 9/9]
1tph London-Manchester-Blackpool & Chester or Holyhead & Edinburgh via WCML [CC 6/6/6]

That gives us 8tph fast and if we were to have 2tph (slow/semi fast) on top of that that keeps us well under the line capacity.
Although this does lead to the fastest train being the CC trains, but I suppose you could deny reservations for Euston-Manchester/Leeds on those services.

I am not sure we need that sort of capacity yet (or when HS2 opens) so besides the extra cost of staffing the trains, I'd still favour smaller trains that are a bit more frequent than Eurostar style trains (in terms of numbers) at a lower frequency.

The advantage is that over the years, you can lengthen trains, increase the frequency and introduce double decker trains. No need to run HS2 to capacity from day one!

So what happens to all these expensive single decks when they are replaced?
If you want to start with insufficient capacity then you need to have shorter double decks which could then be lengthened.
 

Nym

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If all captive stock was double decker and all trains on the high speed line were timetabled to operate as 400m combinations the same level of service could be provided with a tiny number of paths.
(3 x 6 carriage Classic-compatible units is roughly 400m)

EDIT:
2tph CC to Leeds would enable clockface hourly to Hull, Sunderland/Middlesbrough and one of the secondary leeds stations (Bradford, Harrogate and Skipton) with 6 carriages each, and 2 9 carriage trains to Newcastle/Edinburgh with different stopping patterns.
That seems reasonable to me.

I didn't mean three tier as in three units splitting, I ment three as in 1st, 2nd, 3rd class seating.

Or call it 1st, Business & Standard, with Business matching current 1st provision and the new 1st being just amazing.

And Birmingham isn't a through station, neither will Manchester be, you can't run via. it!
 

HSTEd

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I didn't mean three tier as in three units splitting, I ment three as in 1st, 2nd, 3rd class seating.

Or call it 1st, Business & Standard, with Business matching current 1st provision and the new 1st being just amazing.

And Birmingham isn't a through station, neither will Manchester be, you can't run via. it!

You can run via a terminus station, I do believe that the North TPE train runs via Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport despite not going into the through platforms :D

I'm not sure the three tier model would work really, as it would suffer from people who want maximum cheapness going for the 3rd class and the others paying for the supplement for 1st, leaving only the staff travel people in the middle class.
 

Nym

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Yes, but running via Birmingham CZ would mean you'd need a driver on each end, and even with that, still add a good 20 - 25mins journey time. Making HS2a pointless north of Brum, run stuff N of Birmingham via Birmingham S Parkway yeah, one or two stopping there, but not everything via Birmingham defeats the object really.
 

HSTEd

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Yes, but running via Birmingham CZ would mean you'd need a driver on each end, and even with that, still add a good 20 - 25mins journey time. Making HS2a pointless north of Brum, run stuff N of Birmingham via Birmingham S Parkway yeah, one or two stopping there, but not everything via Birmingham defeats the object really.

Alright then, 2tph Birmingham, 2tph Manchester, 2tph Leeds, giving a total of ten fast trains, unless there is a way Curzon street could be made a through station as the route isn't fixed yet.

So 10/12tph total.
 

tripleseis

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As to line in Netherlands, look what a financial disaster the Chunnel was originally! now its full and struggling to squeeze more capacity in.
HSL Zuid is currently used by Thalys trains to Brussels and Paris and I suspect soon will be used by DB ICE services to London from Amsterdam/Rotterdam and Germany. Plus Eurostar are keen to start London to Amsterdam services.
 

HSTEd

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I did this rapidly to show what the alternative line I advocate could look like.
Not much extra tunnelling excepting immediately south of the probable location of the Northampton station (adjacent to the classic one) and immediately north of the probable location of the entirely new Milton Keynes station.

Its also not more than 10-20km longer than the proposed route so it doesn't really extend the express journey significantly, especially with Shinkansen style trainsets.

Note you really need the KMZ of the officially projected route to get the most out of this, but it still gives a general idea.
 

SwindonPkwy

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A lot has been mentioned of the Shinkansen services in Japan, a network I have traveled on frequently as far north as Sendai and south to Okayama. Trains do indeed travel through stations at full speed on the centre tracks; I have experienced this on the platform at Shiroishi-Zao. If you liken this to a future UK network, trains from Scotland may call at Manchester but (if they are anything like the Shinkansen) would run nonstop to London a) to reduce journey times and b) because at Manchester they would already be full.

Overall, I think the objectives of HS2 should be to link up the major populations with a network as short and straight as possible: but with intermediate stations (parkway type or for additional connections) as these would create additional demand. As the example above, intermediate stations would need to have passing facilities.
 

Waverley125

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Forgive me but I find it funny that you refer to York as a glorified commuter town while suggesting building an HS2 station at Durham Tees Valley Airport. While I hope it survives its passenger numbers have been falling drastically and while things are reported to have improved slightly the situation still dire.

I can understand the idea of high speed bypass of Darlington if a high speed line North of the Leeds area ever gets built. However it would make much better sense to use the existing station for the stopping HS2 services.

Hers why. All of the trains your talking about stopping at a Darlington Parkway already stop at Darlington. Yet just about every existing ECML train would have to be diverted out of Darlington into this new station to give connectivity to places like Durham and Thirsk . The problem is then what do you do with the existing Darlington station? Its Graded II star and already underused for the size so its not like an cost savings could be made in closing it down.

It might be that classic ECML services still call there but then your deliberately getting into the awkward territory of having trains going to the same place stopping at only one of two completely separate stations in the same town which is hardly a positive move. Much better to have everything in the one place. An probably cheaper too.

If ever a classing station was ready for HS services its Darlington. Its fairly central and has space for car parking. More importantly its platforms are massive with plenty of room for more and extensions to the existing ones.

Yes York is close to Leeds but Leeds is also close to York. As mentioned where exactly a Leeds HS2 station would go is a toughie to call because the existing station is already full, set to get fuller and has little room to spread out. How close a high speed line could actually get to Leeds without having to drop to classic speed is something I would like to know. Google Earth suggests not very without massive demolition.

Here's a thought, why not bring HS2 on the ECML just south of Doncaster upgrade the Selby diversion to four tracks at 220 mph and then you can run straight into York and build the HS2 station in the freight bypass yard where their is plenty of space.

This would also give Doncaster an Hull access to HS2

Firstly, yes, my entire post assumed continuing HS2 north of Leeds to Edinburgh. It was about how that would happen.

Secondly, I clearly said on the site of, Durham Tees Valley, not for. Tees Valley airport is equidistant between Darlington & Middlesbrough, and is on the Tees Valley line between them. So, as I very clealy stated, this would be a Tees Valley Parkway station serving all of Teeside as well as southwest county Durham. While it would probably boost the airport, the flights would not be essential for its use.

Thirdly, the existing Darlington station would serve Darlington on the Tees Valley line (as I said, electrified between Saltburn & Bishop Auckland), as well as serving it with all the existing services it has. You presuppose a substitution of services onto the HS line from the classic line, which is utterly false, as HS services would, be definition, be in addition to existing services (or there would be no capacity enhancement). There would be no 'necessity' of shifting services, as

1) I sited the station to plug into the existing infrastructure between Darlington & Middlesbrough

and

2) HS services running Leeds-Newcastle direct will allow places like Thirsk, Northallerton & Chester le Street to come back onto the IC map in a big way (i.e. being added to the ICEC & ICXC stopping patterns)

Yes, this would give Darlington two stations. The reason for this is that TVP would also be serving Teeside (i.e. Middlesbrough, Thornaby etc., which you conveniently ignore. The current Darlington station is very little use for this, given its distance from Middlesbrough & destinations east of it. Given the Darlington on its own is not large enough to justify an HS service, the line must necessarily move east. As I said previously, journey time on a 350 or similar from Darlington-TVP would be about 10 minutes, hardly problematic, and as for car parking, well, that can be built at TVP.

Fourthy, York-Leeds. Leeds is close to York, but its close to York in the wrong direction (northwards) so putting the HS station for Leeds at York would destroy any time saving on Leeds-Sheffield and Leeds-London over classic infrastructure, so you don't serve Leeds in a 'parkway' fashion, you leave it off the HS map.

The approach to Leeds the HS line will take is the existing southeastern approach from Methley Junction to Hunslet via Stourton (Pontefract & Hallam lines). This is easily wide enough to be 4 tracks, if not 6, should the need for local services increase. At Hunslet you come to a junction with the old approach to the original Leeds Crown Point terminus (later Goods station, IIRC). This is now the site of an industrial retail park, and is abutted at the far end by Hunslet lane, and then by the old Tetleys Brewery site (now closed).

The HS line would take the Crown Point approach, into the area currently the retail park where the station would be. The platforms would need to be on a declining gradient to the north, so the lines could pass beneath Hunslet Lane & the current Brewery site (where the station building would sit, between Waterloo Street & Meadow Lane, abutting the Brewery Wharf development & Salem church. The line would then need to tunnel under the River Aire & the east of the city centre, swinging sharply east, before emerging in the now-mostly defunct goods yard at Neville Hill. From here there's easily enough space to widen the East Leeds line to 4 (and again, if not six) lines until reaching Cross Gates station & the junction with the old Leeds-Wetherby alignment, where the line swings north & heads dead straight to TVP & Newcastle.

Yes, the above means that between Thorner & Methley Junction (about 10 track miles) trains wouldn't be able to run at any more than classic speeds, but given that everything running would be stopping, that's not really an issue. Forgive me for putting it in an obvious way, but speeds are always lower at major stations than out in the countryside.

As for your last suggestion, because that bypasses completely the biggest & most important city in the north east, destroying almost the entire economic case for the line in the first place, serving two much smaller towns (between them not even 1/3rd the size of Leeds) which already have very good classic services, and will do so after HS.
 

JohnCarlson

Member
Joined
2 Mar 2011
Messages
271
Firstly, yes, my entire post assumed continuing HS2 north of Leeds to Edinburgh. It was about how that would happen.

Secondly, I clearly said on the site of, Durham Tees Valley, not for. Tees Valley airport is equidistant between Darlington & Middlesbrough, and is on the Tees Valley line between them. So, as I very clealy stated, this would be a Tees Valley Parkway station serving all of Teeside as well as southwest county Durham. While it would probably boost the airport, the flights would not be essential for its use.

Thirdly, the existing Darlington station would serve Darlington on the Tees Valley line (as I said, electrified between Saltburn & Bishop Auckland), as well as serving it with all the existing services it has. You presuppose a substitution of services onto the HS line from the classic line, which is utterly false, as HS services would, be definition, be in addition to existing services (or there would be no capacity enhancement). There would be no 'necessity' of shifting services, as

1) I sited the station to plug into the existing infrastructure between Darlington & Middlesbrough

and

2) HS services running Leeds-Newcastle direct will allow places like Thirsk, Northallerton & Chester le Street to come back onto the IC map in a big way (i.e. being added to the ICEC & ICXC stopping patterns)

Yes, this would give Darlington two stations. The reason for this is that TVP would also be serving Teeside (i.e. Middlesbrough, Thornaby etc., which you conveniently ignore. The current Darlington station is very little use for this, given its distance from Middlesbrough & destinations east of it. Given the Darlington on its own is not large enough to justify an HS service, the line must necessarily move east. As I said previously, journey time on a 350 or similar from Darlington-TVP would be about 10 minutes, hardly problematic, and as for car parking, well, that can be built at TVP.

Fourthy, York-Leeds. Leeds is close to York, but its close to York in the wrong direction (northwards) so putting the HS station for Leeds at York would destroy any time saving on Leeds-Sheffield and Leeds-London over classic infrastructure, so you don't serve Leeds in a 'parkway' fashion, you leave it off the HS map.

The approach to Leeds the HS line will take is the existing southeastern approach from Methley Junction to Hunslet via Stourton (Pontefract & Hallam lines). This is easily wide enough to be 4 tracks, if not 6, should the need for local services increase. At Hunslet you come to a junction with the old approach to the original Leeds Crown Point terminus (later Goods station, IIRC). This is now the site of an industrial retail park, and is abutted at the far end by Hunslet lane, and then by the old Tetleys Brewery site (now closed).

The HS line would take the Crown Point approach, into the area currently the retail park where the station would be. The platforms would need to be on a declining gradient to the north, so the lines could pass beneath Hunslet Lane & the current Brewery site (where the station building would sit, between Waterloo Street & Meadow Lane, abutting the Brewery Wharf development & Salem church. The line would then need to tunnel under the River Aire & the east of the city centre, swinging sharply east, before emerging in the now-mostly defunct goods yard at Neville Hill. From here there's easily enough space to widen the East Leeds line to 4 (and again, if not six) lines until reaching Cross Gates station & the junction with the old Leeds-Wetherby alignment, where the line swings north & heads dead straight to TVP & Newcastle.

Yes, the above means that between Thorner & Methley Junction (about 10 track miles) trains wouldn't be able to run at any more than classic speeds, but given that everything running would be stopping, that's not really an issue. Forgive me for putting it in an obvious way, but speeds are always lower at major stations than out in the countryside.

As for your last suggestion, because that bypasses completely the biggest & most important city in the north east, destroying almost the entire economic case for the line in the first place, serving two much smaller towns (between them not even 1/3rd the size of Leeds) which already have very good classic services, and will do so after HS.


I believe it unlikely that Durham would ever be on the Hs2 route although the staion is well used and there is much demand foir London services. Currently it gets I believe one East Coast service two XC and two TPE services each hour each way. Now if you wanted to access HS2 you could get the train into Newcastle although that is doubling back on yourself if your southbound. Or you could head for Darlington. But these trains cant access both Darlington Bank top and your proposed parkway. So you either have to reduce the running through Bank Top or bring in more local trains which would run to a Teesside Parkway. But then your talking of one or even two local trains per hour running for an appreciable distance along HS2 line,. Unless I miss by guess allowing for slower local trains to join and run and and leave the HS2 line would eat up more space than an actual HS2 train just running along HS2.

Far simpler just to allow the already slowing down stopping HS2 train to run off the HS2 line an into Darlington Bank Top where it can pick up passengers and then rejoin the HS2 line further down. You also save the cost of building and staffing an HS2 parkway station and get more out if an existing asset which you cant get rid of in any normal event.


Looking at the site of Durham Tees Valley airport I am not sure how you would easily combine the runway which runs roughly east west and a not south Darlington Teeside line without needing two stations on the Tesside line, one for the HS2 parkway and another for the airport terminal. You could maybe move the terminal building, but not knowing much about airports and runways not sure how this would d work This might be a moot point as the airport is not doing well and currently only on train a week stops at the airport station. And as said before for the people of darlington you talking of trans in the middle of a field when they could be near the center of town.

As to your idea of it being a parkway fro Teesside. Teesside is not exactly a wealthy area. Walk into the centre and your in the land of Greggs the Bakers and Everything's a Pound. True there are some wealthy areas but consider that that Egglesclif is already a parkway station for Teesside with four Grand Central Trains a day and turn up and go fairs well below that of East Cost and then there are only station stops at Northallerton, Thirsk and York and then runs non stop to London. Yet every time I go through Eaglescliff there is only a sprinkling of passengers getting on Grand Central. Harldy a promising start for an HS2 parkway at Durham Tees Valley which would involve traveling much further and slightly north.

There are wealthy areas such as Gisborough to the south of Middlesbrough but again they already have a station which they can access. Northallerton which has the same Grand Central service and this time you have shaved about 15 min of the journey and its even closer to London. Why would these people want to drive back on themselves to catch a more expensive train at Teesside parkway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Firstly, yes, my entire post assumed continuing HS2 north of Leeds to Edinburgh. It was about how that would happen.

Secondly, I clearly said on the site of, Durham Tees Valley, not for. Tees Valley airport is equidistant between Darlington & Middlesbrough, and is on the Tees Valley line between them. So, as I very clealy stated, this would be a Tees Valley Parkway station serving all of Teeside as well as southwest county Durham. While it would probably boost the airport, the flights would not be essential for its use.

Thirdly, the existing Darlington station would serve Darlington on the Tees Valley line (as I said, electrified between Saltburn & Bishop Auckland), as well as serving it with all the existing services it has. You presuppose a substitution of services onto the HS line from the classic line, which is utterly false, as HS services would, be definition, be in addition to existing services (or there would be no capacity enhancement). There would be no 'necessity' of shifting services, as

1) I sited the station to plug into the existing infrastructure between Darlington & Middlesbrough

and

2) HS services running Leeds-Newcastle direct will allow places like Thirsk, Northallerton & Chester le Street to come back onto the IC map in a big way (i.e. being added to the ICEC & ICXC stopping patterns)

Yes, this would give Darlington two stations. The reason for this is that TVP would also be serving Teeside (i.e. Middlesbrough, Thornaby etc., which you conveniently ignore. The current Darlington station is very little use for this, given its distance from Middlesbrough & destinations east of it. Given the Darlington on its own is not large enough to justify an HS service, the line must necessarily move east. As I said previously, journey time on a 350 or similar from Darlington-TVP would be about 10 minutes, hardly problematic, and as for car parking, well, that can be built at TVP.

Fourthy, York-Leeds. Leeds is close to York, but its close to York in the wrong direction (northwards) so putting the HS station for Leeds at York would destroy any time saving on Leeds-Sheffield and Leeds-London over classic infrastructure, so you don't serve Leeds in a 'parkway' fashion, you leave it off the HS map.

The approach to Leeds the HS line will take is the existing southeastern approach from Methley Junction to Hunslet via Stourton (Pontefract & Hallam lines). This is easily wide enough to be 4 tracks, if not 6, should the need for local services increase. At Hunslet you come to a junction with the old approach to the original Leeds Crown Point terminus (later Goods station, IIRC). This is now the site of an industrial retail park, and is abutted at the far end by Hunslet lane, and then by the old Tetleys Brewery site (now closed).

The HS line would take the Crown Point approach, into the area currently the retail park where the station would be. The platforms would need to be on a declining gradient to the north, so the lines could pass beneath Hunslet Lane & the current Brewery site (where the station building would sit, between Waterloo Street & Meadow Lane, abutting the Brewery Wharf development & Salem church. The line would then need to tunnel under the River Aire & the east of the city centre, swinging sharply east, before emerging in the now-mostly defunct goods yard at Neville Hill. From here there's easily enough space to widen the East Leeds line to 4 (and again, if not six) lines until reaching Cross Gates station & the junction with the old Leeds-Wetherby alignment, where the line swings north & heads dead straight to TVP & Newcastle.

Yes, the above means that between Thorner & Methley Junction (about 10 track miles) trains wouldn't be able to run at any more than classic speeds, but given that everything running would be stopping, that's not really an issue. Forgive me for putting it in an obvious way, but speeds are always lower at major stations than out in the countryside.

As for your last suggestion, because that bypasses completely the biggest & most important city in the north east, destroying almost the entire economic case for the line in the first place, serving two much smaller towns (between them not even 1/3rd the size of Leeds) which already have very good classic services, and will do so after HS.

I broadly agree with you that if HS2 is to be extended north to Scotland the way to do it is via the east coast. However I would have to wonder how may trains per hour could be generated north of the Leeds area. Well maybe four or five per hour if the line to Aberdeen is also given an classic compatible service. Nor sure how easy it would be to build and HS2 line between Glasgow and Edinburgh or whether a line from Glasgow by passing Edinburgh would be a better idea. But how much outlay could 5tph justify for and HS2 extension?


Your idea for a Leeds city center terminal looks doable and would have the advantage of being a brown field site but in my opinion its just far enough from Leeds Central to count as a separate station and give connectivity issues for anyone changing between the two.

But tunneling under the river would be expensive and there would as you say be quite a section where the speed is slow.

However if this station was just used as a terminus HS2 could join the ECML south of Doncaster and Scottish bound HS2 trains run up a widened Selby diversion and into York then the widened and upgraded ECML before swinging mildly to the left before Northalleton then across the ECML passing Darlington to the east, Durham to the west and rejoining the ECML south of Chester le Street. depending on capacity it would be possible to demolish a few houses in the ClS area and build a second viaduct and the four tracks alongside the Tyne Yard. Unfortunately the train would have to run slowly through Newcastle until just south of Cramlington then back in on a dedicated HS2 line to Scotland .


I cant imagine that the Scottish people would be to bothered about loosing a direct HS2 connection to Leeds if they get York instead and it would eliminate the slow running though Leeds and the cost of a tunnel.
 
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HSTEd

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Joined
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HS2 has effectively unlimited funding.

I see there is talk of tens of miles of brand new tunnels..... this is going to put the price through the roof.
 
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