High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[Jonny]

Why do you want to put everything into Euston when there is a station a few hundred yards away that will be standing almost empty once the bulk of its Suburban, Scotland and Leeds traffic is removed?

Exactly - build another HS line from the north - we need to plan for a HS3 line covering the east part of the East Midlands (Lincoln), Hull/York and on northwards to Newcastle. The Leeds branch of the "Y" would be better used as a XC version - competing with airlines between Newcastle and Bristol. It could even run N'castle-Leeds-B'ham-Oxford-Bristol using the Great Western mainline which will surely be electrified by then.

I might avoid 'planes due to fluid restrictions, but I might prefer to brave it for a short hop where a voyager might take a few hours if I was heading for the west country.

 

[Waverley125]

Exactly - build another HS line from the north - we need to plan for a HS3 line covering the east part of the East Midlands (Lincoln), Hull/York and on northwards to Newcastle. The Leeds branch of the "Y" would be better used as a XC version - competing with airlines between Newcastle and Bristol. It could even run N'castle-Leeds-B'ham-Oxford-Bristol using the Great Western mainline which will surely be electrified by then.

I might avoid 'planes due to fluid restrictions, but I might prefer to brave it for a short hop where a voyager might take a few hours if I was heading for the west country.

so No HS2 services from the second biggest city in the North to London....because that makes sense.

Lincoln & Hull between them are about half the size of Leeds, and a Leeds station would take York into account (given York is essentially a hugely glorified commuter town for Leeds). Also, why would an 'East Midlands' line go to Lincoln and Hull rather than Nottingham or Sheffield? It's lunacy.

I agree a 'cut the corner' line should be built, but instead of heading NW to Lichfield it should go due north to EMP (Rapid transit into Nottingham & Derby, with a branch for terminating trains into Nottingham with Classic Compatible stock), north to Sheffield Midland, then onto Leeds, a Darlington-Middlesbrough Parkway at Tees Valley Airport (with an electrified TV line connecting the towns), Newcastle & Edinburgh.

Undoubtedly the line that doesn't 'cut the corner' could be used as an XC HS route, but it'd be much more sensible building SW to Gloucester, Bristol & Cardiff shadowing the current XC line than going via Oxford.

 

[tbtc]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/05/high-speed-two-unions-back-government

Britain needs £32bn High Speed Two go-ahead now, say rail union leaders

Jobs hopes pinned on 250mph railway from London to Birmingham, and later north to Leeds and Manchester

Trade union leaders have given rare backing to the government by urging the approval of plans for a £32bn high speed rail network.

In a letter to the Guardian, leaders of Britain's biggest transport unions argue that with rising unemployment the country urgently needs to invest in infrastructure and must not give in to "wealthy ideological opponents" of the High Speed Two (HS2) scheme linking London to Birmingham – and eventually Leeds and Manchester – with trains running at up to 250mph

Like most pleas to the Government, I'm not sure it'll change much, but its nice to see the Unions and the Tories on (broadly) the same side of an argument...

 

[WatcherZero]

Its interesting to see Bob Crow signing the letter demanding HS2 be accelerated. Hes always been opposed saying it would take investment away from existing lines.

 

[tbtc]

Its interesting to see Bob Crow signing the letter demanding HS2 be accelerated. Hes always been opposed saying it would take investment away from existing lines.

Crow and Cameron both want HS2 - it's almost enough to put me in the "anti" camp

Seriously though, good to see another convert

 

[JohnCarlson]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/05/high-speed-two-unions-back-government



Like most pleas to the Government, I'm not sure it'll change much, but its nice to see the Unions and the Tories on (broadly) the same side of an argument...

Its strange to think 32bn is not a lot compared to what we are spending on wind farms.

 

[tbtc]

Its strange to think 32bn is not a lot compared to what we are spending on wind farms.

Aye, to quote Everett Dirksen:

A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money

(it's attributed to him anyhow, though I've seen it claimed he never said those exact words)

 

[Nym]

Compare it as a per year cost as to what the national bus pass scheme has cost...

 

[WatcherZero]

Harder now the Governments phasing out the grant and leaving the councils to cover the shortfall as its still a statutory requirement.

 

[Tiny Tim]

We seem to be jumping to a whole raft of conclusions based on very shaky evidence. HS2 beyond Birmingham isn't really on the agenda presently, and future governments may well make major changes to the existing proposals. Although the present political mood is in favour of HS2, the case is a long way from proven.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theres a leak doing the rounds tonight that the Government is going to approve it in an official announcement next week.

Full steam ahead for high-speed rail
PM risks confrontation with MPs after backing new link between London and Birmingham

A £32bn high-speed rail link between London and Birmingham that would cut through some of Britain's most prized countryside and infuriate Conservative MPs is set to be approved by the Transport Secretary.

Justine Greening's decision comes after a study of the alternatives concluded they would fail to reduce overcrowding on trains and would condemn passengers to years of engineering work and delays.

She is expected to confirm within days that the Government is pressing ahead with the scheme despite entrenched opposition among MPs and councils in the Home Counties to the route, which slices through the Chilterns.

Under the plans, the first stage of the HS2 route would be built by 2026, cutting travel times between London and Birmingham to 49 minutes – 23 minutes less than the current quickest journey.

Spurs to the North-west and Yorkshire would be built by 2032-33 in the second phase of the scheme, eventually bringing Manchester and Leeds within 80 minutes of the capital.

Opponents, including 18 local authorities, have argued that the Government has not made the business case for the project and warned that it will cause severe environment damage. They have called for the existing West Coast Main Line to be upgraded to provide extra capacity for passengers and set out two detailed proposals for how that could be achieved.

But, in a severe setback for the campaigners, the Department for Transport (DfT) last night disclosed that an analysis by Network Rail of the proposed alternatives has concluded they are deeply flawed. Ms Greening is understood to share its conclusions and to be planning to announce her decision soon after the Commons returns from its Christmas break on Tuesday.

A DfT source said Network Rail had conducted a "sober and independent analysis" of the alternatives to HS2 and concluded that "patchwork upgrades to the existing rail network simply will not resolve the huge capacity challenges we face". The source added: "Our plans for a new high-speed rail network would increase hugely the number of seats for passengers available on Britain's inter-city railways, as well as freeing up space on railways for more trains to operate – and all with minimal disruption to the existing railway."

Ms Greening had given fresh hope to HS2's critics when she ordered a fresh look at the scheme after becoming Transport Secretary in October. Her predecessor, Philip Hammond, was an enthusiastic advocate of the project, describing its opponents as "mainly nimbys".

Ms Greening's decision will infuriate many Tory MPs, including other ministers. Opponents of HS2 include Cheryl Gillan, the Welsh Secretary, Dominic Grieve, the Attorney General, and David Lidington, the Europe minister, as well as the Speaker, John Bercow. Some of Ms Gillan's colleagues believe she may resign in protest. By contrast Tory MPs and civic leaders in the North of England have argued it is essential for stimulating growth.

Ms Greening could try to sweeten the pill by offering fresh modifications to the route. She is considering spending £500m to build a 1.5-mile tunnel under the Chilterns in Buckinghamshire.

The conclusions emerged as the Government faced renewed calls to press ahead with the link in letters from economists, business leaders and union chiefs. The economists argued the project would help to create up to one million jobs and give a boost to the building industry.

Martin Tett, the chairman of 51m, an alliance of 18 local authorities opposed to HS2, said: "We're absolutely confident our proposals would meet all of the capacity requirements with minimal disruption much earlier than HS2 would and at a far lower cost."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/full-steam-ahead-for-highspeed-rail-6286346.html


From Reuters

A Department for Transport source said: "NR has carried out a sober and independent analysis of the alternative solutions to upgrading and future proofing our railways and concluded that patchwork upgrades to the existing rail network simply will not resolve the huge capacity challenges we face."

 

[Tiny Tim]

Theres a leak doing the rounds tonight that the Government is going to approve it in an official announcement next week.

Most of the political parties have agreed (at least in principle) that the London to Birmingham section of HS2 will be approved. They like to be seen to be doing something in these recessionary times. North of Birmingham it's a very different story, there won't be a decision on this for years.

 

[Chris125]

The second section will be far easier to approve - it wont be an argument over building a HSL, but whether to continue. Given that phase 2 looks to cost around half per mile than phase 1 but benefitting a much greater area it shouldnt be a hard argument to win.

Chris

 

[swt_passenger]

Although being reported as a 'new study' NR's opinion on HS2 has been pretty consistent, in July last year they were reminding people of their 2009 study that found that a WCML upgrade was not the answer:

In 2009 Network Rail published its 'New lines Study' which contained a vast amount of analysis to understand the long-term capacity issues facing the railway. The conclusions were stark. Within a decade the west coast main line will be full with other inter-city lines following not far behind (midland main line and east coast main line).

By this point, the restricted capacity of the rail network between major cities will have become a significant brake on, and barrier to, sustainable economic growth. Costly and disruptive upgrades of the existing infrastructure are not the answer with only the building of new lines as a realistic solution - with high speed delivering the greatest benefit.

The analysis concluded that building of HS2 would not only transform travel between our major cities, it would also release 13 train paths per hour on the existing west coast potentially transforming the commuting for communities not well served by today's services (e.g. Northampton, Milton Keynes). It would also release significant extra capacity for freight on Britain's busiest freight corridor.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...AYS-NETWORK-RAIL-1836/SearchCategoryID-2.aspx

 

[Jonny]

The North East HS2 service is the weaker, their concentrating on the benefits for stops in the Midlands and South Yorkshire. The reality is the ECML is already pretty fast with very few stops as it doesnt run through many urban areas so it will probably be little affected. They probably wont be switching services into stoppers like they will on the WCML.

The best thing for the North-East and Scotland would be a third high-speed line, out of St Pancras International or London Liverpool Street; the HS2 to London services could then run to/from Heathrow Airport or become XC services.

 

[Waverley125]

ok, my two cent's worth.

There seems to be consensus that any HS network out to serve central London, Heathrow, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle & Scotland. Yet one line to all those places would be so ridiculously roundabout as to be completely ineffective. So here's an idea

HS2 (West):

Existing proposed line to Birmingham, with spurs into Bham city centre & Manchester city centre. Line continues north from Junction with Manchester spur (around Crewe somewhere?) to head north to Preston, Carlisle, and then a Y-junction for lines into Glasgow & Edinburgh. This would give a journey set of:

London/Birmingham/Manchester-Scotland: Preston (for Lancashire & the NW), Carlisle (for the Borders)

London-Bham: Bham international only

London-Manchester: Manchester Airport only

HS2 (east):

Instead of going via Birmingham, a second branch to head due north once the line clears the M25, heading straight north to East Midlands parkway. There build a People mover to East Midlands Airport, electrify the lines into Nottingham & Derby for rapid acceleration 'metro' EMUs, an modify Nottingham station to accept classic-compatible HS stock.

From EMP, carry on due north, skirting west of Long Eaton, before heading north, approaching Sheffield from the East to a reopened Sheffield Victoria. From there continue north, curve round Chapeltown to skirt Barnsley to the west, then head dead straight east of Wakefield till you reach the southern approach to Leeds. At leeds use the existing Pontefrac/Hallam line approach to a station on the current Crown Point industrial estate, then tunnel under the river, for about 4 miles to an emergence at Shadwell. From there head due north to Tees Valley parkway (rapid transit on the Tees Valley line for Darlington & Middlesbrough), then on to Newcastle, and finally, a route cutting through the Cheviots to Edinburgh.

Journey set created of:

London-Newcastle: East Midlands Parkway, Sheffield, Leeds, Tees Valley Parkway

Nottingham-Edinburgh: Sheffield, Leeds, Tees Valley Parkway, Newcastle

London-Edinburgh: Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle

as the western line is probably faster, there may well not need to be a London-Edinburgh service, but it would serve as a relief line and would link all the major cities on this alignment.

Finally, Heathrow

Heathrow is miles out of the way for any lines going north from Euston. But it is perfectly placed for lines going West & South out of Paddington (in my opinion, the obvious terminus for a Western line serving Reading, Bristol & Cardiff)

It is also very well placed for an 'International Connection line', running round London to the south, calling at Heathrow on a N-S alignment (as opposed to the Paddington line's E-W alignment) before heading north & joining HS2, allowing Scottish services to the continent to run south, have a call at London, and get to the Channel Tunnel without having to tunnel through most of London.

 

[swt_passenger]

What is really odd is the BBC's current headline (as of Sat 7th Jan at 1630)

HS2: High-speed rail link 'being seriously considered'

..and sub heading:

Ministers are "considering very seriously" building a controversial new high-speed rail line between London and Birmingham, the BBC understands.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16453869

Er... I think this has been under consideration for about two years now, why report it as though it is a sudden new idea?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What is really odd is the BBC's current headline (as of Sat 7th Jan at 1630)
HS2: High-speed rail link 'being seriously considered'
..and sub heading:
Ministers are "considering very seriously" building a controversial new high-speed rail line between London and Birmingham, the BBC understands.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16453869
Er... I think this has been under consideration for about two years now, why report it as though it is a sudden new idea?

I think (hope) it means that the government (not just the Dft) has agreed to bring forward a Bill to build HS2.
Until now it's been "technical" without the backing of the government legislative machine or serious spend.
It ought to mean the Treasury has agreed a significant budget spend up to getting an Act approved.
Assuming they don't take fright and change their minds over the next few days...
The NIMBYs know it is their last chance to stop it, and will be screaming blue murder in the media.

Despite all the press apparently knowing the details of the latest NR report, I haven't been able to find it anywhere.

 

[Tiny Tim]

Politicians like to appear important, so announcements such as those concerning HS2 are dressed up to look considered and statesmanlike. It's quite funny, really, as few MPs will have any in-depth knowledge of the project and will vote on purely political grounds. That's democracy.

 

[SS4]

20 minutes time saving? Forgive me if my numeracy is wrong but isn't the current time about 94 minutes (excluding the 0730 BHM-EUS) yet they're saying HS2 is 49 minutes...

 

[Nym]

And it's aiming for HS2a being 1hr40 MAN - EUS where it's now 2hr7 or 2hr8mins.

 

[HSTEd]

What does HS2 being built to Leeds mean for the InterCity franchises?

Surely East Coast would cease to exist in its current form with the northern services taken over by the "West Coast High Speed" franchise and the remainder likely folded into Thameslink-SOuthern?

 

[WatcherZero]

You would likely still see high speed services direct from London on the ECML because they would be competive timewise with HS2 going via West Midlands and Birmingham. It would also likely become the freight line of choice.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If the leaks haven't been enough, I'm sure we'll just have to wait until Tuesday to hear the Minister announce the proposals formally, especially the funding committments and timescales.

On the subject of finance, Network Rail released a new £1.5bn 4-year bond on Wednesday.
Reuters report here : New Issue-Network Rail prices 1.5 bln stg 2015 bond

That amount is comparable to the amount of new loans they borrowed last year.
It is more than the £1.03bn loss in asset value of the railway network in the past year (following a revaluation), its more than the £292m loss in pension provision and its more than the £251m loss in value of hedging derivatives (but is comparable to all three, just to pick some of NR's key financial indicators not entirely at random).

The government's assurances of finance is going to be crucial.

 

[amcluesent]

Another boondoggle, but this time it'll be for the Tory donors who trouser the ££, helpfully offering non-exec sinecures when the MPs get booted out.

It's obvious that all the benefits could be achieved at a fraction of the cost be the Govt. posting a TomTom satnav to every motorist in Britain.

 

[WatcherZero]

If the leaks haven't been enough, I'm sure we'll just have to wait until Tuesday to hear the Minister announce the proposals formally, especially the funding committments and timescales.

On the subject of finance, Network Rail released a new £1.5bn 4-year bond on Wednesday.
Reuters report here : New Issue-Network Rail prices 1.5 bln stg 2015 bond

That amount is comparable to the amount of new loans they borrowed last year.
It is more than the £1.03bn loss in asset value of the railway network in the past year (following a revaluation), its more than the £292m loss in pension provision and its more than the £251m loss in value of hedging derivatives (but is comparable to all three, just to pick some of NR's key financial indicators not entirely at random).

The government's assurances of finance is going to be crucial.

You kidding? look at the interest rate on the bonds, much lower than the rate of inflation. These bonds have been issued an incredibly low rate because investors are still desperate for cast iron AAA investments.

 

[JohnCarlson]

ok, my two cent's worth.

There seems to be consensus that any HS network out to serve central London, Heathrow, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle & Scotland. Yet one line to all those places would be so ridiculously roundabout as to be completely ineffective. So here's an idea

HS2 (West):

Existing proposed line to Birmingham, with spurs into Bham city centre & Manchester city centre. Line continues north from Junction with Manchester spur (around Crewe somewhere?) to head north to Preston, Carlisle, and then a Y-junction for lines into Glasgow & Edinburgh. This would give a journey set of:

London/Birmingham/Manchester-Scotland: Preston (for Lancashire & the NW), Carlisle (for the Borders)

London-Bham: Bham international only

London-Manchester: Manchester Airport only

HS2 (east):

Instead of going via Birmingham, a second branch to head due north once the line clears the M25, heading straight north to East Midlands parkway. There build a People mover to East Midlands Airport, electrify the lines into Nottingham & Derby for rapid acceleration 'metro' EMUs, an modify Nottingham station to accept classic-compatible HS stock.

From EMP, carry on due north, skirting west of Long Eaton, before heading north, approaching Sheffield from the East to a reopened Sheffield Victoria. From there continue north, curve round Chapeltown to skirt Barnsley to the west, then head dead straight east of Wakefield till you reach the southern approach to Leeds. At leeds use the existing Pontefrac/Hallam line approach to a station on the current Crown Point industrial estate, then tunnel under the river, for about 4 miles to an emergence at Shadwell. From there head due north to Tees Valley parkway (rapid transit on the Tees Valley line for Darlington & Middlesbrough), then on to Newcastle, and finally, a route cutting through the Cheviots to Edinburgh.

Journey set created of:

London-Newcastle: East Midlands Parkway, Sheffield, Leeds, Tees Valley Parkway

Nottingham-Edinburgh: Sheffield, Leeds, Tees Valley Parkway, Newcastle

London-Edinburgh: Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle

as the western line is probably faster, there may well not need to be a London-Edinburgh service, but it would serve as a relief line and would link all the major cities on this alignment.

Finally, Heathrow

Heathrow is miles out of the way for any lines going north from Euston. But it is perfectly placed for lines going West & South out of Paddington (in my opinion, the obvious terminus for a Western line serving Reading, Bristol & Cardiff)

It is also very well placed for an 'International Connection line', running round London to the south, calling at Heathrow on a N-S alignment (as opposed to the Paddington line's E-W alignment) before heading north & joining HS2, allowing Scottish services to the continent to run south, have a call at London, and get to the Channel Tunnel without having to tunnel through most of London.

I can see where of there were to be a a high speed bypass of Dalington a parkway station could be built for Tees valley but I think its a terrible idea .

Its right on the the edge of Darlington and even further from the centre. Again what would anyone e from the Middlesbtrough area want to travel to a station on the edge of Darlington, presumably by bus or their own car when they can get a cheaper and probably faster grand central service from Egglescliff.

HS2 trains would also have to stop at York. The city has quite a bit of clout and no one from that area is going to get a local train to Leeds and then change onto an HS2 service which gives an even longer and more expensive journey than the existing services.

Best

John

 

[Tiny Tim]

Let's route HS2 through every one horse town between London and Reykjavik, slow everything down to 30mph, rename it NoSpeed2 and then everyone will be happy. Won't they?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Let's route HS2 through every one horse town between London and Reykjavik, slow everything down to 30mph, rename it NoSpeed2 and then everyone will be happy. Won't they?

i wont cos frankly that a stupid idea!!!!

I personally dont think that many stations are needed.

East midlands parkway and South yorkshire parkway should both be designed so that trains can pass through at speed as i dont think everything should stop at them both.

 

[tbtc]

Let's route HS2 through every one horse town between London and Reykjavik, slow everything down to 30mph, rename it NoSpeed2 and then everyone will be happy. Won't they?

This is the problem with HS2, people's reaction to it depend on whether it serves their local town.

Personally I think that places like Darlington/ York already have a better service than similar towns/cities of that size, so diverting HS2 out of the way to serve them would be unnecessary.

From Leeds the line should go straight north towards Ripon etc, rather than east to York, for example. Not saying it should stop in Ripon, just head in that direct northern direction towards Newcastle.

I accept it won't have a sop in central Sheffield, but it can't stop everywhere (or it wouldn't be *high* speed)