High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[Tiny Tim]

Using moving block signalling uniform path capacities approaching 45tph are possible

Whilst I have every confidence that moving block signalling can increase path capacity, isn't 45tph a bit ambitious? I'm no Luddite but if HS2 is going to rely on this technology it's going to be one hell of a gamble.

With the Dutch high speed experience in mind it's going to be difficult to pitch HS2 services to the man who'd rather not be on the Clapham omnibus. Obviously it seems right to charge a premium price for a premium service, especially when the capital investment is taken into account, but with train travel already something of a luxury to many of us, how much higher can fares go before we just take the not-so-fast train. I never did get to fly in Concorde.

 

[JohnCarlson]

HS2 has effectively unlimited funding.

I see there is talk of tens of miles of brand new tunnels..... this is going to put the price through the roof.

Not compared with what the country is spending on windmills.

 

[HSTEd]

Whilst I have every confidence that moving block signalling can increase path capacity, isn't 45tph a bit ambitious? I'm no Luddite but if HS2 is going to rely on this technology it's going to be one hell of a gamble.

With the Dutch high speed experience in mind it's going to be difficult to pitch HS2 services to the man who'd rather not be on the Clapham omnibus. Obviously it seems right to charge a premium price for a premium service, especially when the capital investment is taken into account, but with train travel already something of a luxury to many of us, how much higher can fares go before we just take the not-so-fast train. I never did get to fly in Concorde.

Yes, as I said 45tph is the theoretical limit, not the practical limit.
That would require the signalling system to have a few seconds lag between a train failing to report properly or showing a decrease in speed to the train behind initiating a full emergency braking. Presumably under computer control.

Building terminus stations at Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester is a bad idea, it will simply leave us with stubs that will render the network near useless for non London related journeys without time consuming reversals.

Additionally HS2 fares are apparently going to be lower than those of conventional trains, which I have to say will put the viability of classic services in doubt if all the end to end passengers are removed.

 

[Tiny Tim]

I love the idea that travelling by HS2 might be cheaper than using 'classic' services, and no doubt it's written down somewhere. I may not be a Luddite, but on this subject I'm a card-carrying sceptic.

 

[jon0844]

There will probably be cheap seats on account of lots of room off peak and very high walk up fares for the benefit of the media to attack the industry!

There's no way it will be a flat rate £200 odd fare as suggested early on by the anti-HS2 brigade. But, some tickets may cost that much. Airline pricing is surely here to stay and most people probably prefer it.

 

[WatcherZero]

The business model calls for ticket prices matching classic lines plus a 10% speed premium.

 

[HSTEd]

Well I worked out a way to get a High Speed line into Leeds City with the minimum of demolitions, use a short tunnel to pass under Horbury (near Wakefield) and then track the motorway for a while, then pass through the gap between East Ardsley and Tingley, track west and join the Wakefield line for the final ~3.5 miles.

The Wakefield line would be diverted via a cutting to join the line through Cottingley, allowing the seperation of High Speed and Classic trains all the way to the station, with the final approach taking the high speed lines up on a viaduct to connect to the high speed platforms that would be built directly above the current ones inside the existing trainshed (I believe the roof is tall enough).
This design would allow the central location to be retained and access to be maintained relatively easily to all the classic lines leaving Leeds.
It also potentially allows for another viaduct to carry an extension of the high speed network out of the city via Cross Gates.

As this approach has not been mentioned I assume there is something wrong with putting the station there?

I will update my linked file with this.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Well I worked out a way to get a High Speed line into Leeds City with the minimum of demolitions, use a short tunnel to pass under Horbury (near Wakefield) and then track the motorway for a while, then pass through the gap between East Ardsley and Tingley, track west and join the Wakefield line for the final ~3.5 miles.

The Wakefield line would be diverted via a cutting to join the line through Cottingley, allowing the seperation of High Speed and Classic trains all the way to the station, with the final approach taking the high speed lines up on a viaduct to connect to the high speed platforms that would be built directly above the current ones inside the existing trainshed (I believe the roof is tall enough).
This design would allow the central location to be retained and access to be maintained relatively easily to all the classic lines leaving Leeds.
It also potentially allows for another viaduct to carry an extension of the high speed network out of the city via Cross Gates.

As this approach has not been mentioned I assume there is something wrong with putting the station there?

I will update my linked file with this.

I would agree with you over the general idea of double decking Leeds station although I wonder how practical it would be as you would have to build while the station below was in full use. If you check Google earth there is an abandoned viaduct that runs from the Wakefield line to Leeds central that could be brought back into use. By the time HS2 gets there I would hope that train shed roof would have gone anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, as I said 45tph is the theoretical limit, not the practical limit.
That would require the signalling system to have a few seconds lag between a train failing to report properly or showing a decrease in speed to the train behind initiating a full emergency braking. Presumably under computer control.

Building terminus stations at Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester is a bad idea, it will simply leave us with stubs that will render the network near useless for non London related journeys without time consuming reversals.

Additionally HS2 fares are apparently going to be lower than those of conventional trains, which I have to say will put the viability of classic services in doubt if all the end to end passengers are removed.

I would not want to see Leeds as a terminus but with the absence of an easily identifiable brownfield site for a through station not sure what will happen. Don't forget trains manage to get to the Northeast without it now.

 

[Proud Salopian]

I'm excited for this at it opens up the possibility for frequent Shrewsbury-London direct trains, via the 'old' WCML. Just need the Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury line electrified now!!

 

[Snapper]

Formal announcement of the go-ahead:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/topics/high-speed-rail/

 

[WatcherZero]

Theyve apparantly changed the business model for a second time, they now assume identical fares to classic railways and naturally that reduces the revenue reducing the BCR.

Their claiming the extra 8 miles of 'green' (their PR loaded word for cut and cover tunneling) will actually save £250m in construction costs rather than costing another £500m as was publicised some time ago.

 

[Nym]

Proberbly using up contingency rather than changing the budget...

 

[oversteer]

So Amersham now gets tunneled around and a new tunnel will be bored between Northolt and the western side of West Ruislip.

There will also be a direct link to Heathrow as part of Phase 2, so I wouldn't be surprised if that went down via Denham following the line of the M25 ..

 

[kylemore]

How in God's name this should take 14Years is beyond me.
We truly must be the laughing stock of the Rail World.
Fair enough if that was the time for completion to Manchester, Leeds and Scotland (even that would be fairly pathetic by international standards), but 14Years for London to Birmingham!!

 

[swt_passenger]

Theyve apparantly changed the business model for a second time, they now assume identical fares to classic railways and naturally that reduces the revenue reducing the BCR.

That isn't much of a change AFAICT. The original HS2 specification main text said it's fares would be 'broadly similar' or something like that.

 

[Nym]

Its 3 more years of consultations before a rail is even laid, hence the pathetic timescale, the government's problems it created for its self...

 

[WatcherZero]

I see Crow is trying to rewrite history so its a victory.

RMT Press Release:

Bob Crow, RMT General Secretary, said: “No one has fought harder for the investment and modernisation required to drag the UK’s railways out of the slow lane than RMT and development of high speed links must be a key component of our rail plans.

“However, any attempt by the Government to pay for these developments by cutting jobs, services and investment elsewhere in the system, along the lines set out in the McNulty rail review, will meet with the stiffest resistance from RMT.


“RMT is also demanding that High Speed Two be built, owned and operated in the public sector free from the greed and profiteering of the private rail companies whose exploitation of the travelling public has dragged our railways down for a generation.”

Satirists have already jumped on it saying Crow is already publically calling for a strike over pay and conditions to be timetabled 15 years hence.


Revised maps, more studies and consultation analysis on the Dft website, however dft website is falling over hard from demand.
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/hs2-maps-20120110.htm

 

[jon0844]

Satirists have already jumped on it saying Crow is already publically calling for a strike over pay and conditions to be timetabled 15 years hence.

Why even call it a joke? Bob Crow famously stated he'd strike during the Olympics if his members didn't get what they wanted - and that was just after finding out we had won in 2005.

Okay, so he didn't actually call a strike then - but it made his intentions very clear. To be fair, it clearly worked!

He must be incredibly happy; he now has a project that he can really take advantage of to secure his job for many more years to come.

 

[tbtc]

That isn't much of a change AFAICT. The original HS2 specification main text said it's fares would be 'broadly similar' or something like that.

If HS2 fares are any cheaper than "conventional" fares then people will complain that HS2 will undercut the viability of the conventional lines.

If HS2 fares are the same as "conventional" fares then people will complain that there was no point in building HS2.

If HS2 fares are any more expensive than "conventional" fares then people will complain that HS2 only caters to the ultra wealthy paying megabucks (whilst others are crammed onto old stock on conventional lines).

Whatever the fares, you know that the anti-HS2 mob will find a reason to complain...

 

[TinManDerby]

I came across some details released by HS2 Action Alliance in 2011 and an indicative map of the second stage to Leeds and Manchester, my interest is the Leeds arm of second stage whach appears to be close to my home, South Normanton, Derbyshire, on the M1 Junction 28. Line seems to go north between Alfreton and Sutton In Ashfield / Mansfield, this is a 6 mile wide area with the M1 going North, also the old Gt Central route goes north in the same area, any comments anybody: Map attached:

The Secret 'Y' Network

The secret map of the rest of the Y network for HS2, that the government have been trying to stop everyone seeing, Anti-HS2 campaigners helped to uncover the full details with information from HS2 Ltd. See further information below the map:

The Y Indicative Route is based on detailed description of the Y given in ‘High Level Assessment of the Wider Network Options – Reverse S and Y Networks’, HS2 Ltd (undated, but Autumn 2010 )
‘indicative map’ on Page 9 of ‘Economic Case for HS2’, DfT February 2011 – to indicate possible stations
‘indicative map’ on Page 62 of ‘High Speed Rail: Investing in Britain’s Future - Consultation’, DfT February 2011 – to indicate possible stations
Statement on page 63 of ‘High Speed Rail: Investing in Britain’s Future - Consultation’, DfT February 2011 – to indicate possible stations

This provides the following information:

Y starts in ” Coleshill area”. 2 Highspeed junctions (1) 6m south of Leeds; (2) 11m south of Manchester
To Leeds :
“broadly follows M42, A42” (avoids Peak District), and then M1 (but not sure if north or south of M/A42, but by it)
103 miles (HS2 Ltd say 69m rural flat, 21m rural hills, urban 8m and 5m tunnel)
HS2 Ltd say cost is £5.8bn (for the 103 miles plus 6 miles to Leeds)
Parkway probably between Derby/Notts. Or Will pick up interchange close to EM airport
Leeds Junction is 6 miles south and NE of Wakefield - to route trains to Newcastle/Edinburgh via ECML
To Manchester:
Goes north of Lichfield (from where Phase 1 ends), and “NW towards Stafford/Stoke”
Unclear which side of Stoke, but the West is probably easier to construct (roads/WCML), and keeps away from peak district
59 miles (28m flat, 30m hills, 1 m tunnel), plus 11m and 16 miles after new junction
HS2 Ltd say cost of £5.4bn (for the 86 miles)
Route follows “main road arteries” eg M6
Interchange 11miles south of Manchester, (S of Wilmslow) – new 16mile connecting spur towards Warrington (to go north on WCML to Preston/Glasgow); and to classic local services.

 

[Zoe]

Its 3 more years of consultations before a rail is even laid, hence the pathetic timescale, the government's problems it created for its self...

There is quite a bit to be done, legislation has to be passed before construction can start.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Loving the twitter abuse. People now accusing government of downgrading speed from 250 to 225..... never planned to be 250 always planned to be 225 with track capeable of taking 250mph trains.

People saying 17 billion for 30 minutes off london birmingham... thats not why we are doing it no one ever mentions the wider benefits!!!!!

 

[Flywaver]

£32bn better spent on Hyperdrives and the Flux Capacitor. Hell we could be on Speederbikes before this gets built...

 

[HSTEd]

360kph has been widely shown to be a waste of money by the Japanese.... 320kph is the most reasonable top speed to go with IMO.

But then I want a Shinkansen style line and not one that has basically been built as if its across a peopleless wasteland.

 

[Ivo]

The anti-HS2 mob can complain all they want but it is in the country's best interests if we are to continue competing on a global scale. Imagine a situation in which countries the world over have the capacity to run trains at a truly high speed of anything up to a third of the speed of sound - while we are still merrily jogging along at a mere 125. It is similar to what Hammond said on St David's Day last year - potential and current investors will look to journey time savings, and if we cannot provide that rapid connectiong then we will lose out to the continent. It would become one less thing that is "great" about Great Britain.

In the past I have said that for an island of this size the speed is perhaps a little excessive - but other than that, HS2 is the way forward, no matter what all the critics and doomsayers may want us to believe. After all, you know something is massively important when Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems all promote it in the run up to a General Election

£32bn better spent on Hyperdrives and the Flux Capacitor. Hell we could be on Speederbikes before this gets built...

You never know; someone may learn the secret of teleportation! We could have an InterCity teleportation system, with strategic locations across the country and a modest level of fares...

 

[Nym]

No comment regarding the personality of most of the Chilterns' enhabitents...

But what if new tech comes that means 400km/h running is viable in 10 years, but we've built the line to 320km/h max, would be a tad stupid...

 

[anthony263]

Glad to see HS2 is given the go ahead.

I am in favour of it and it did make me laugh to see Bob crow making the argument for HS2 against some nimby on sky news.

I think the argument put out by Pete waterman about the uk needing HS2 is correct this country can't afford to not to built HS2 especially if it does eventually reach scotland.

I don't know how people can say just to upgrade the west coast mainline again when we saw what happened the last time.

By the way doesn't Jeremy Clarkson live near the chilterns? I am surprised we haven't heard from him about it yet.

 

[Badger]

How in God's name this should take 14Years is beyond me.
We truly must be the laughing stock of the Rail World.
Fair enough if that was the time for completion to Manchester, Leeds and Scotland (even that would be fairly pathetic by international standards), but 14Years for London to Birmingham!!

I'm probably wrong, but a time that long makes it sound like there's a compulsory purchase order or something required, perhaps knocking down an important building, which won't be allowed before a certain time? I'd imagine the Curzon St Unite halls of residence for example won't be allowed to be knocked down so soon after being built.

 

[SS4]

I see Crow is trying to rewrite history so its a victory.

RMT Press Release:


Satirists have already jumped on it saying Crow is already publically calling for a strike over pay and conditions to be timetabled 15 years hence.


Revised maps, more studies and consultation analysis on the Dft website, however dft website is falling over hard from demand.
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/hs2-maps-20120110.htm

You mean someone is doing what our elected officials have done for decades? :roll:

 

[Nym]

I'm probably wrong, but a time that long makes it sound like there's a compulsory purchase order or something required, perhaps knocking down an important building, which won't be allowed before a certain time? I'd imagine the Curzon St Unite halls of residence for example won't be allowed to be knocked down so soon after being built.

Why not, the're only halls of residence...

What does need reserving in land terms is the space for stations in Manchester and Leeds, considering the speed of developments in these places this needs doing sooner rather than later.

(I don't know if the Leeds Central Station site has been taken or not yet, if not, reserve please)

Otherwise all I can see for Leeds is a double decker station with more conventional platforms where the car park is on a lower deck (this is much lower than the rest of the station anyway) with HS2 on an upper deck, yes there is space) covering over to Pt.4 (Current), full re-numbering, grade separated links into roads C and D for through services, Classic Compatible only, using roughly the Wakefeild Line corridor to approach.
Massive re-numbering of Leeds City's platforms, 1 - 6 for HS2 only platforms (that would also have space to reverse out for classic compatible services onwards to Bradford, Skipton etc. 1 track link line would do) 7 to 10 for additional domestic platforms 11 to 27 for current platforms...

You think thats bad, wait till you hear what I'd have in store for Piccadilly...

1 - 3 New Platforms, Domestic Manchester Piccadilly East
4 - 15 Current 1 - 12, Domestic, Terminating Services from East, Fast and Slow (Not many from Slow)
16, 17 Southbound through platforms from Oxford Road, current 13, 14
18, 19 Island platform for terminating services from Oxford Road, build over Fairfield Street, single track link to 17 & 20 if space.
20, 21 Westbound through platforms to Stockport / Airport from Oxford Road
22, 23, 24 In former Mayfeild, platforms for slow services on the Airport Line (now dedicated tracks) and any LDPE services diverted this way.
24 - 33 High Speed Two Platforms, Four for LDPE Services to London, Two International platforms for Heathrow & Chunnel services, For 'Javelin' commuter service platforms. (In the Baring Street Industrial Area).

22 - 24 could be dropped depending on service patterns, perhaps provide two or three 'hybrid' platforms with access to the Airport lines and HS2 lines local to the station, similar to the case at Euston.

Approaches would be segregated to be:

East - Stockport Fast - Stockport Slow - Airport - HS2

If the loop onto Philips Park is put back, two more tracks for that, the viaduct into Piccadilly would technically be 12 tracks wide in some places.

Longsight would house a connection between HS2, Stockport Fasts and Airport Line. Built with stage one, allong with Manchester's HS2 Piccadilly Extension to house the new services using 400m long Classic Compatable Stock, via the Styal Branch or Stockport. The aim being grade seperation of Fast, Slow and Airport lines, with HS2 being able to access either route at Longsight provisionally prior to the tunneled approach, to Longsight.