Govia Thameslink first class penalty fare dispute

[Class 466]

I feel like GTR need to follow Southeastern’s suit and just ditch first class. It’s silly that one train through the core and then the next one have different first class policies yet are identical units. An over complicated policy.

 

[WesternLancer]

There's a failsafe here though. If you don't see the screen, consider it first class until proven otherwise. It isn't going to mess up your day finding out later that it was declassified and you could have gone there. I'm certain over the years I've travelled on many services around the UK where first class was declassified and I hadn't bothered to look it up, so was oblivious. I still got to my destination.

Plus, in some cases first class on a train isn't worth rushing for - or is the first place to fill up by those who do know.

Some people here do seem to think the railway has an obligation to tell people if first class is or isn't in operation, and if it doesn't then you can be there.

And this chancer seems to be arguing that it's the same front and rear, so you can ignore the rules. Maybe I'll try that on a plane and sit in first class, except here I'll argue that the plane is going to the same destination so why should some people be forced to slum it in economy? No doubt the same sort of person who takes another seat on a plane and then tries to shame the occupant into sitting somewhere else because they didn't want to pay to sit together.

We can opt to support these chancers, but not be surprised when certain perks get removed and enforcement gets stronger.

totally agree

and the issue ref 1st isn't really about quality of accommodation (tho it is that in part) it's about allowing a certain section of the travelling users who wish or can afford to do so to pay more for a greater chance of a seat at busy times as defined in the pre covid era, something of course that is not overtly stated by the industry I guess.

 

[AlterEgo]

They're for honest mistakes as a means of learning the lesson.

They aren’t, really. That’s why the PF amounts jumped so much - because they aren’t actually there to penalise “honest errors” but to act as a disincentive for routine fare evasion. “We only need to get you in one out of 20 journeys now to make it financially unviable”.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Disagree. The risk of a criminal conviction is much more of a disincentive than a £50 fine. Either way, this is going off topic.

 

[rs101]

There's a failsafe here though. If you don't see the screen, consider it first class until proven otherwise. It isn't going to mess up your day finding out later that it was declassified and you could have gone there. I'm certain over the years I've travelled on many services around the UK where first class was declassified and I hadn't bothered to look it up, so was oblivious. I still got to my destination.

Plus, in some cases first class on a train isn't worth rushing for - or is the first place to fill up by those who do know.

Some people here do seem to think the railway has an obligation to tell people if first class is or isn't in operation, and if it doesn't then you can be there.

And this chancer seems to be arguing that it's the same front and rear, so you can ignore the rules. Maybe I'll try that on a plane and sit in first class, except here I'll argue that the plane is going to the same destination so why should some people be forced to slum it in economy? No doubt the same sort of person who takes another seat on a plane and then tries to shame the occupant into sitting somewhere else because they didn't want to pay to sit together.

We can opt to support these chancers, but not be surprised when certain perks get removed and enforcement gets stronger.

Better communication of restrictions would seem a sensible approach. Eg, have e-ink screens near the doors which can update to say if the carriage is first class or second - relatively cheap to install, very low power consumption and would make the restrictions blindingly obvious. If that's not possible, then change the rolling display screens to have 1/3 of the screen permanently showing the classification of the section.

In this case, we know he knew it wasn't declassified. But I can completely understand the potential for confusion - one day you get into the first class section at the rear, because it's the only place with space and see a notice that it's declassified. The next day, on the same time train, you see space in first class at the front, so get on, assuming it'll also be declassified. Unless the screens show a message saying the section is for first class ticket holders only, you may well think you've missed the declassification message on the 5 minute loop.

Question - when this train goes on the return journey, is either section declassified? if it's always the front section, then that leads to even more confusion - "same seat in this carriage was standard class going to London, but now it's first class?"

 

[AlterEgo]

Disagree. The risk of a criminal conviction is much more of a disincentive than a £50 fine. Either way, this is going off topic.

Just read the consultation which talks about PFs being a deterrent - not language you use in the scope of innocent mistakes.

Penalty fare value reform: consultation outcome

www.gov.uk

And the DfT who say:

Fare evasion costs the rail industry around £240million a year.

From Jan 2023 we’re increasing the penalty for passengers travelling without a ticket to £100, plus the ticket price for that journey️

It's perfectly on topic because it doesn't seem that the passenger in this case did make a mistake and was likely chancing it, as many people do. PFs are there to deter that behaviour and are a neater and quicker solution than reporting passengers.

 

[Haywain]

Is there a reason why first class is always in the front?

It's about consistency - if you have a first class ticket you know where you need to be on the platform and don't run the risk of finding yourself 12 coaches away when the train turns up.

 

[soil]

Do you have evidence that the customer was both on the 0705 and that this service was formed of a 387?

I'm not disagreeing but I just want to see the evidence; until I see the evidence, I don't see how you can conclusively say it was definitely not a class 700 unit.

x.com

x.com

Realtime Trains | 1P87 0705 Peterborough to London Kings Cross | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 1P87 0705 departure from Peterborough to London Kings Cross on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Pathed as Class 387 EMU

My ticket was Stevenage Kings Cross arriving at 08:14.

 

[AlterEgo]

Realtime Trains | 1P87 0705 Peterborough to London Kings Cross | 10/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 1P87 0705 departure from Peterborough to London Kings Cross on 10/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

x.com

x.com

With respect that shows the timing load, not the actual unit which worked the service. Although he was certainly on the 0705.

 

[bramling]

With respect that shows the timing load, not the actual unit which worked the service. Although he was certainly on the 0705.

It’s booked a 700/1, and the likelihood of this service being substituted by something else is low, especially as the moment as GTR likely wouldn’t have three 387s sitting around spare now GN is losing units to Southern.

Also, if it was a 387 then first would have been in cars 4 & 8, which is at odds with the assertion that the guy was at “the front”.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s booked a 700/1, and the likelihood of this service being substituted by something else is low, especially as the moment as GTR likely wouldn’t have three 387s sitting around spare now GN is losing units to Southern.

Also, if it was a 387 then first would have been in cars 4 & 8, which is at odds with the assertion that the guy was at “the front”.

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense.

 

[soil]

It’s booked a 700/1, and the likelihood of this service being substituted by something else is low, especially as the moment as GTR likely wouldn’t have three 387s sitting around spare now GN is losing units to Southern.

Where can this information be seen?

 

[BAFRA77]

Reading through the tweets, the person in question is fully aware that only the rear section on 700s is declassified, but argues that the front and rear sections are the same so there should be no problem sitting at the front with a Standard Class ticket. And also that he shouldn’t be required to pay the penalty because he is a student. Hope GTR stand firm on this and don’t change the policy on the rear section being declassified. This one isn’t a fight worth fighting in my opinion, but not holding my breath that any lesson will be learned.

Fully agree

He's also tried this on in the Telegraph article:

He continued: “I don’t like pulling this card but I am a dyslexic and this, combined with all the other finicky rules of the railway, just make commutes so unnecessarily stressful.

 

[The_Train]

If you have a standard class ticket and are not 100% sure that the first class compartment you have decided to sit in is declassified then don't sit in it. No sympathy from me, I'm afraid but obviously there is now a growing trend of people crying about their misdemeanours to local rags and the railways being the bad guys

 

[Wolfie]

If you have a standard class ticket and are not 100% sure that the first class compartment you have decided to sit in is declassified then don't sit in it. No sympathy from me, I'm afraid but obviously there is now a growing trend of people crying about their misdemeanours to local rags and the railways being the bad guys

The railway pushing the boundaries beyond the legally acceptable on prosecutions and all too often ignoring their legal obligations when things go wrong have brought "being the bad guys" on themselves. A number of us warned of that and it's only likely to get worse as more nasties come out.

 

[soil]

If I'm understanding this correctly:

* this is timetabled as a Great Northern (387) service, where First Class information is from here https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/tickets-and-payment-methods/first-class
* however the actual train was a Thameslink (700) train with no Great Northern branding at all, and First Class information comes from here https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets-and-payment-methods/first-class (albeit that the Great Northern page refers to "routes served by Thameslink trains", which I assumed referred to the overall GTR brand, but might mean this is a 'Great Northern' service but served by a Thameslink train, although a customer couldn't possibly be assumed to understand the difference between a TL train on a GN route and a TL train on a TL route)

Correct?

 

[Cdd89]

In general I agree that if the passenger isn’t certain about the rules around declassification, they shouldn’t use (clearly marked) first class at all. So very little sympathy is my default position.

The caveat, which I’ve been mulling, is that they mention in other posts about announcements encouraging the use of declassified first class. I’d want to know exactly what that announcement said, and depending on the content it could be a defence to the penalty fare.

Let’s imagine it said “this train is extremely busy, please feel free to sit in first class at the back of the train”. A passenger might assume this is a declassification in response to current circumstances, rather than a statement of what the situation always is on that route. They might find first class at the front and reasonably assume the same applies, because it doesn’t make sense to actively declassify one but not the other in response to an overcrowded service.

In other words, if Thameslink active promote declassification, I feel the onus is on then to make the rules around it incredibly clear. Just as the passenger shouldn’t use it if they’re confused (rightly mentioned in this thread), Thameslink shouldn’t promote it if they can’t do so clearly.

 

[James H]

I do think the CIS display about declassified first class could be shown a bit more often - it is current a bit 'blink and you'll miss it'

 

[bramling]

If I'm understanding this correctly:

* this is timetabled as a Great Northern (387) service, where First Class information is from here https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/tickets-and-payment-methods/first-class
* however the actual train was a Thameslink (700) train with no Great Northern branding at all, and First Class information comes from here https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets-and-payment-methods/first-class (albeit that the Great Northern page refers to "routes served by Thameslink trains", which I assumed referred to the overall GTR brand, but might mean this is a 'Great Northern' service but served by a Thameslink train, although a customer couldn't possibly be assumed to understand the difference between a TL train on a GN route and a TL train on a TL route)

Correct?

Not really. It is booked a 700/1. The declassification policy is exactly the same whether the service is TL or GN.

Where things are, perhaps, unclear is if you get a train formed of multiple 387s and whether the rear declassification still applies (the general view isn’t doesn’t, but someone could certainly have a go at arguing that one). But this isn’t what happened here, it was a 700/1 and the incident occurred in the front first class.

 

[WesternLancer]

In general I agree that if the passenger isn’t certain about the rules around declassification, they shouldn’t use (clearly marked) first class at all. So very little sympathy is my default position.

The caveat, which I’ve been mulling, is that they mention in other posts about announcements encouraging the use of declassified first class. I’d want to know exactly what that announcement said, and depending on the content it could be a defence to the penalty fare.

Let’s imagine it said “this train is extremely busy, please feel free to sit in first class at the back of the train”. A passenger might assume this is a declassification in response to current circumstances, rather than a statement of what the situation always is on that route. They might find first class at the front and reasonably assume the same applies, because it doesn’t make sense to actively declassify one but not the other in response to an overcrowded service.

In other words, if Thameslink active promote declassification, I feel the onus is on then to make the rules around it incredibly clear. Just as the passenger shouldn’t use it if they’re confused (rightly mentioned in this thread), Thameslink shouldn’t promote it if they can’t do so clearly.

Not saying it doesn’t happen but I’ve never heard it announced.

 

[jon0844]

The CIS only says first class at the front on 700 operated services. Yes, this might not be obvious as meaning the rear isn't first class but if you didn't know or understand the meaning you wouldn't go in either with a standard class ticket.

 

[Cdd89]

Not saying it doesn’t happen but I’ve never heard it announced.

I’ve never heard it either, but I mention it because that does appear to be the person’s claim:

Teenager fined £129 after sitting in 'wrong first class' of 'very full' train

He had a standard ticket, but assumed he could use first-class after messages that the area may be used if the train is busy

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

He… assumed he could use first-class seating on the ‘very full’ train, after messages that the first class area may be used if the train is busy

 

[wellhouse]

The usual £5 will be offered for a simple guide (of less than half a page) as to which carrages (types of trains? Routes? Types of Liveries? Types of operators?) on the entire GTR empire where standard class ticket holders may sit in first class (hints: Sutton/Rainham/387s)...!

Not sure my reply qualifies for the £5 prize, but here's a quick quote from the Southern website.

'A number of stations are served by trains operating on different routes, some with and some without first class. We strongly recommend that you check in advance whether your planned service operates with first class or not. The easiest way to check is through our timetables pages'

You can enjoy the full guidance here:

https://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-payment-methods/first-class

It's clear that the GTR empire runs an unhelpful ticketing policy relating not just to First Class, but also to brands.

This results in needless confusion, which must sometimes lead to harsh treatment of passengers. The Gatwick Express question has been much discussed, but those in the Lewes area will often find Gatwick Express stock turning up, with platform displays reassuring them that it's OK to board, as it's a Southern service.

I am a firm believer in the option of First Class.

Regarding Thameslink stock in particular, as has been mentioned upthread, First Class does offer superior facilities to Standard, and any passengers aiming to enjoy it (declassified or not) must make the effort to go to the extreme ends of the train, so it's unlikely that many will find themselves there by accident.

It does seem possible that the individual concerned in this incident suffers even more from cockiness than from autism.

Nevertheless, over-zealous enforcement of over-complicated rules doesn't do 'The Railway' any favours.

 

[43066]

The 700s don’t all face the same way, so it wouldn’t work. The 700/0s regularly turn via the Sutton Loop, but the 700/1s turn too albeit on a much more occasional basis.

I really don’t understand why people think change is necessary off the back of one person’s error.

A mate of mine came a cropper a couple of years back, and was “done” for sitting in the front first class of an 700 after I’d told him about the rear one being declassified. Only a penalty fare thankfully. He did try and (jokingly) blame me, but I reminded him it was entirely his error .

 

[ianBR]

The PIS screens are not clear at all. You have to wait in the rear carriage for it to cycle through all sorts of nonsense before you’d notice the message saying standard class ticket holders can sit there and I imagine the front carriage is similar.

Like everything else on the railway it is unnecessarily complicated and designed to catch customers out

Thameslink should have the same policy on all their trains.

 

[FOH]

The PIS screens are not clear at all. You have to wait in the rear carriage for it to cycle through all sorts of nonsense before you’d notice the message saying standard class ticket holders can sit there and I imagine the front carriage is similar.

Like everything else on the railway it is unnecessarily complicated and designed to catch customers out

Thameslink should have the same policy on all their trains.

So your argument is, if you have a standard ticket then feel free to sit in First Class and wait for a screen that may eventually scroll to say you're allowed. When really it is if you know you're allowed to sit there you know and if you don't know, then don't sit there in the first place. Just like my parents brought me up.

 

[jon0844]

The PIS screens are not clear at all. You have to wait in the rear carriage for it to cycle through all sorts of nonsense before you’d notice the message saying standard class ticket holders can sit there and I imagine the front carriage is similar.

Like everything else on the railway it is unnecessarily complicated and designed to catch customers out

Thameslink should have the same policy on all their trains.

You can wait outside first class and look in to see the screen pop up if you want. When it does, go in and relax. Or otherwise stay in standard to match your ticket type.

 

[ianBR]

You can wait outside first class and look in to see the screen pop up if you want. When it does, go in and relax. Or otherwise stay in standard to match your ticket type.

If people waited for the PIS display to cycle round then there won’t be any seats left in the rear carriage

The current system is confusing and puts people who don’t travel frequently at a disadvantage to those in the know.

It would be far better to just permanently fix one carriage as first class and make the other end standard class.

The handful of people travelling first class can then refer to the platform boards to see which end of the platform they need to be at if they aren’t sure.

 

[FOH]

The current system is confusing and puts people who don’t travel frequently at a disadvantage to those in the know.

I do agree it can be confusing however the advantage thing goes with the territory. Regulars know which door to get off at to be first out of the station whilst infrequent travellers lose out. Regulars get season ticket discounts whilst infrequent travellers pay full fare. Heck regular drivers know the upcoming road layout and which lane snarls up first ...

 

[Haywain]

The current system is confusing and puts people who don’t travel frequently at a disadvantage to those in the know.

The so-called disadvantage is tiny and is of no consequence to those who don't know about it. It's of very little consequence to me and I do know about it like many others.

It would be far better to just permanently fix one carriage as first class and make the other end standard class.

It really wouldn't because the current system actually works rather well.