Govia Thameslink first class penalty fare dispute

[soil]

I say again, this is a Stevenage to Kings Cross commuter, not someone who mostly goes down the Wimbledon branch. From the Great Northern (as that is actually the operator of the service) website

finding it hilarious how confusing and passenger-hostile the railways are that on a forum of train obsessives it took till post #50 to point out that the entire discussion is wrongly titled, and much of the accompanying discussion is also wrong, and GTR themselves didn't even point out that this wasn't a Govia Thameslink Railway Thameslink train, but a Govia Thameslink Railways Great Northern train.

Train passenger fined £80 for sitting in wrong first-class carriage

Thameslink policy is confusing and should be scrapped, says angry teenager

www.telegraph.co.uk

A Thameslink spokesman said: “Rear first-class compartments on Thameslink trains have been declassified since they entered service in 2016, to create more space for customers with regular tickets. We advertise this on the digital displays on board the train, as well as on platform screens.

If GTR don't even know which of their trains are which how on earth are passengers supposed to?

Absolutely indefensible.

The even funner part is there ARE Thameslink trains, at 0417, 2317, 2331, and 2351 only, on this route, which they don't bother listing on their 'first class' page but it should be obvious to GTR at least, that the passenger was not on a Thameslink train but a Great Northern train so the answer they gave to the media was irrelevant nonsense.

(Not really surprising the passenger tweeted @TLRailUK rather than the correct @GNRailUk, given that the penalty fare is labelled 'Govia Thameslink Railway'.)

 

[yorkie]

I say again, this is a Stevenage to Kings Cross commuter, not someone who mostly goes down the Wimbledon branch. From the Great Northern (as that is actually the operator of the service) website

The operator is Govia Thameslink Railway. GN is merely a brand name used by GTR.

Do you know which train they caught?

... this wasn't a Govia Thameslink Railway Thameslink train, but a Govia Thameslink Railways Great Northern train...

Which train was it?


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2024 ==

(Not really surprising the passenger tweeted @TLRailUK rather than the correct @GNRailUk, given that the penalty fare is labelled 'Govia Thameslink Railway'.)

It's the same person you reach, regardless of the brand you tweet.

 

[mrg9999]

Not 100% sure this is the right subforum given this isn't a personal issue, so apologies.

A student 'confused' by Thameslink's First Class declassification procedure has lead to an online and media storm about Thameslink approach to the "two First Class" setup on their trains:

x.com

x.com

This has lead to a number of media articles including coverage in the Telegraph:

Train passenger fined £80 for sitting in wrong first-class carriage

Thameslink policy is confusing and should be scrapped, says angry teenager

www.telegraph.co.uk

In my view, at face value a lot of the noise around this seems to come from people either playing dumb about abusing First Class rules, or those whipping generic outrage about the trains / rail infrastructure / ticketing complexity. Whilst I appreciate the "wrong first class" scenario is confusing and Thameslink could definitely do a much better job of explaining and announcing it, if one were to follow the rules then it's not hard to avoid getting a fine. If you don't have a first class ticket don't sit in a carriage labelled 'First Class' unless you see a sign or announcement telling you it's OK.

But, do we think the public "outrage" about this might lead to changes from Thameslink? Could we see First Class removed from the 700s (like the Great Northern's 717s?) given there is limited benefit?

It's all clearly laid out in this document

Your Rights and Obligations as a Passenger | National Rail

When you buy a train ticket to travel on the rail network, you enter into an agreement with the train companies. Find out about your rights and obligations as a passenger, and how to get more information.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

National Rail Conditions of Travel

When you buy a ticket to travel on the railway network you enter into an agreement with the train companies. That agreement gives you the right to make the journey between the stations or within the zones shown on your ticket.

Current version

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/77fuBWp62YPSrGwBP1mNQX/5f912e6484a2dc7efbad3b4ed0c9b383/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf

First Class travel sections

Section 10.1
Train Companies are required to ensure that warning notices are clearly displayed at stations where Penalty Fares apply. You may be charged a Penalty Fare if:
Section 10.1.2
You travel in first class accommodation with a standard class Ticket


I've worked in revenue protection and I was very lenient with people whom I thought had made an honest mistake. We had a list of persistent offenders whom we dealt differently. I think persistent fare evaders should be barred from using public transport for a length of time to teach them how difficult and expensive travel might become if they persist. I think blind people and those with significant disabilities should be able to sit anywhere on the train with their carer if they have one.

 

[soil]

It's the same person you reach, regardless of the brand you tweet.

The passenger tweeted

x.com

x.com

Hi @TLRailUK, I have been fined £79.50, along with most of the carriage this morning, for sitting in the front first class section

Please can you explain the difference from sitting in the back first class, where it’s allowed, to the front and how that it worth £79.50

However, if he was on a Great Northern train there wouldn't have been any first class at the back


The passenger was on the 0705 from Peterborough, boarding at Stevenage at 0751, arriving KX at 0814

 

[RJ]

finding it hilarious how confusing and passenger-hostile the railways are that on a forum of train obsessives it took till post #50 to point out that the entire discussion is wrongly titled, and much of the accompanying discussion is also wrong, and GTR themselves didn't even point out that this wasn't a Govia Thameslink Railway Thameslink train, but a Govia Thameslink Railways Great Northern train.

Train passenger fined £80 for sitting in wrong first-class carriage

Thameslink policy is confusing and should be scrapped, says angry teenager

www.telegraph.co.uk

If GTR don't even know which of their trains are which how on earth are passengers supposed to?

Absolutely indefensible.

The even funner part is there ARE Thameslink trains, at 0417, 2317, 2331, and 2351 only, on this route, which they don't bother listing on their 'first class' page but it should be obvious to GTR at least, that the passenger was not on a Thameslink train but a Great Northern train so the answer they gave to the media was irrelevant nonsense.

(Not really surprising the passenger tweeted @TLRailUK rather than the correct @GNRailUk, given that the penalty fare is labelled 'Govia Thameslink Railway'.)

A lot of people colloquially refer to St Pancras International as King’s Cross. From Stevenage there is a Great Northern 0814 arrival into King’s Cross and a Thameslink 0814 arrival into St Pancras. Could he have been on the Thameslink service into St Pancras?

Reading through the tweets, the person in question is fully aware that only the rear section on 700s is declassified, but argues that the front and rear sections are the same so there should be no problem sitting at the front with a Standard Class ticket. And also that he shouldn’t be required to pay the penalty because he is a student. Hope GTR stand firm on this and don’t change the policy on the rear section being declassified. This one isn’t a fight worth fighting in my opinion, but not holding my breath that any lesson will be learned.

 

[soil]

A lot of people colloquially refer to St Pancras International as King’s Cross. From Stevenage there is a Great Northern 0814 arrival into King’s Cross and a Thameslink 0814 arrival into St Pancras. Could he have been on the Thameslink service into St Pancras?

No: the penalty fare says London Kings Cross

 

[OneOfThe48]

It is likely it was a Great Northern service between Peterborough and Kings Cross operated by a Class 700 Thameslink unit.

This does not change the policies on where first class is and is not in use as far as I know as it applies to the train itself, rather than whether it’s in service as a GN or TL train.

 

[jon0844]

Am I missing something here?

You wouldn't sit in first class unless you saw a notice or announcement saying otherwise? If you know it's a possibility, you'd likely know how to look up or ask. If you don't, you get to enjoy life in blissful ignorance.

The 700s show first class at the front on the CIS. The 387s do not, although people do ask if the same rule applies. I assume they don't sit there until they've checked, and even though 387 first class is not an upgrade in any way, people seem to forget that on commuter services you're really paying for a seat than creature comforts.

The 379s have by far the best first class and as far as I can tell, it will be enforced in both compartments. How long until we see posts on these?

 

[yorkie]

The passenger tweeted

x.com

x.com

However, as he was on a Great Northern train there wouldn't have been any first class at the back


The passenger was on the 0705 from Peterborough, boarding at Stevenage at 0751, arriving KX at 0814

Do you have evidence that the customer was both on the 0705 and that this service was formed of a 387?

I'm not disagreeing but I just want to see the evidence; until I see the evidence, I don't see how you can conclusively say it was definitely not a class 700 unit.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is likely it was a Great Northern service between Peterborough and Kings Cross operated by a Class 700 Thameslink unit.

This does not change the policies on where first class is and is not in use as far as I know as it applies to the train itself, rather than whether it’s in service as a GN or TL train.

Seems abundantly simple. Not.

 

[FOH]

Seems abundantly simple. Not.

It is simple, if you sit in an area marked First Class know the rules. If you don't know the rules then don't sit there.

You're defending a chancer who is squealing because they were caught.

 

[AlterEgo]

It is simple, if you sit in an area marked First Class know the rules. If you don't know the rules then don't sit there.

You're defending a chancer who is squealing because they were caught.

What if you think you know the rules but actually don't? It's such a bizarre situation; try explaining it all to someone outside the industry and you'll be met with confusion.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is simple, if you sit in an area marked First Class know the rules. If you don't know the rules then don't sit there.

You're defending a chancer who is squealing because they were caught.

Obviously this guy is a chancer and I have no sympathy with this specific individual. But it highlights a wider problem with consistency.

If you think you know the rules and get it slightly wrong then the penalties are huge. And the first class provision on these trains is confusing. With a standard ticket you can sit in first class at the back and, on some routes, you can even sit in first class at the front. On Southern there’s nothing but a small sticker and an anti-macassar to highlight that first class is first class. And on LNR the bit that looks like first class- and used to be first class- is actually standard class.

 

[Hadders]

Looking at the seat back and floor in the Twitter photo of the Penalty Fare I’d say it’s a 1st class compartment of a class 700, not a 387.

I’m a very regular traveller between Stevenage and Kings Cross/St Pancras. If a class 700 is operating the service the rear 1st class compartment is always declassified, regardless of whether the service is shown as GN in the timetable (eg the additional peak fast services that run non-stop between SVG and KGX are often 700 operated but shown as GN in the timetable).

 

[Tetchytyke]

To give another example, the Standard Plus section on TfW’s 197s is currently declassified, and so I will always sit there if there’s space as I’m sure any one of us would.

Standard Plus isn’t first class, even though it looks like first class, so you can’t be PF’d for sitting there. Same with Standard Premium on Avanti which, apart from the anti-macassar having different words on it, looks identical to first class and even has first class written on the side of the carriage.

Confused? Why would anyone be confused?

 

[FOH]

Looking at the seat back and floor in the Twitter photo of the Penalty Fare I’d say it’s a 1st class compartment of a class 700, not a 387.

I’m a very regular traveller between Stevenage and Kings Cross/St Pancras. If a class 700 is operating the service the rear 1st class compartment is always declassified, regardless of whether the service is shown as GN in the timetable (eg the additional peak fast services that run non-stop between SVG and KGX are often 700 operated but shown as GN in the timetable).

And going back to my earlier post, when going to Kings Cross the front first class regardless of it being a 700 or 387 is always first class

I'm struggling to think of any train from Stevenage to either St Pancras or Kings Cross that has the front first class declassified

 

[Tetchytyke]

If a class 700 is operating the service the rear 1st class compartment is always declassified, regardless of whether the service is shown as GN in the timetable (eg the additional peak fast services that run non-stop between SVG and KGX are often 700 operated but shown as GN in the timetable).

And if it’s a 387 the rearmost compartment isn’t declassified.

As I said above, this guy is clearly a chancer but it does highlight a wider issue.

There really doesn’t need to be first class on these units. Nor on the 377s and 387s, for that matter, where first class is identical to standard class except for a sticker and an anti-Macassar. On the older 377s you don’t even get a separate compartment, it really is just a bit of the carriage with a different sticker.

LNR had the right idea.

 

[railpigeon]

Maybe just permanently remove the first class stickers and headrests from one of the two ends of the train? Sounds more straightforward to label something for what it IS, rather than mislabelling it for what it temporarily isn’t.

A bit like fuel pumps at filling stations. The one labelled “diesel” always dispenses diesel. If I need diesel I don’t have to think “I can go to the pump labelled ‘petrol’ on the side nearest the road, unless I’m travelling the other way in which case I need a pump that’s labelled ‘petrol’ on the side furthest from the road”.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

The usual £5 will be offered for a simple guide (of less than half a page) as to which carrages (types of trains? Routes? Types of Liveries? Types of operators?) on the entire GTR empire where standard class ticket holders may sit in first class (hints: Sutton/Rainham/387s)...!

 

[Richardr]

Is there a reason why first class is always in the front? Would it make sense to be in the front going south and in the rear going north, so that one carriage can be permanently first class, and the other indicated as permanently declassified?

 

[Hadders]

Is there a reason why first class is always in the front? Would it make sense to be in the front going south and in the rear going north, so that one carriage can be permanently first class, and the other indicated as permanently declassified?

That would be more confusing as many people don’t know north from south. Easier to say front and rear.

 

[bramling]

Is there a reason why first class is always in the front? Would it make sense to be in the front going south and in the rear going north, so that one carriage can be permanently first class, and the other indicated as permanently declassified?

The 700s don’t all face the same way, so it wouldn’t work. The 700/0s regularly turn via the Sutton Loop, but the 700/1s turn too albeit on a much more occasional basis.

I really don’t understand why people think change is necessary off the back of one person’s error.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

What if you think you know the rules but actually don't?

Is that not what penalty fares are for as opposed to prosecution? I'd argue the system has worked well here.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is there a reason why first class is always in the front?

The 700s don't all face in the same direction. There's also the attractiveness aspect; going up you want to be in the front as that's closer to the station exit in London, and going down you want to be in the front as that's closer to the station exit in Brighton.

 

[jumble]

700s don’t at one end and that’s what the passenger in question was travelling on.


More likely is that passengers, being used to first class being declassified at both ends on other 700 worked services, are confident that it is declassified until suddenly they’re stopped by staff.

The solutions are either have first class restrictions at both ends at all times or abolish first class altogether. The latter is the better option in my opinion.

Great
So more customers will have to stand at busy times just because some jackass does not have the wits to ask about the rules or look them up.
I would love to know if he genuinely did not know or was taking his chances

 

[rs101]

Good to know. I've never been in the actual first class bit.

The message in the declassified end is not at all prominent. It only appears for a brief period as part of a long cycle of information and you generally have to stare at the screens for quite a while to see it.

If it's like the screens on GA trains, then it can take 4-5 minutes for the loop to complete, so very easy to miss a single announcement.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

as that's closer to the station exit in London,

Not really. On a 12 car from Brighton, London Bridge has exits by cars 3 and 7, Blackfriars and City Thameslink by cars 1 and 12, Farringdon is car 11 for the Elizabeth line and exit with car 5 best for changing to the tube, and St Pancras is car 6. London Bridge is the only one where the front is probably not a bad disposition; Blackfriars and City Thameslink very much depend on your onward journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2024 ==

I would love to know if he genuinely did not know or was taking his chances

He did know. He admitted to knowing. He is trying to argue that because the rear is declassified, and the front and the rear are identical, there is no difference. There is a difference of course.

 

[jon0844]

If it's like the screens on GA trains, then it can take 4-5 minutes for the loop to complete, so very easy to miss a single announcement.

There's a failsafe here though. If you don't see the screen, consider it first class until proven otherwise. It isn't going to mess up your day finding out later that it was declassified and you could have gone there. I'm certain over the years I've travelled on many services around the UK where first class was declassified and I hadn't bothered to look it up, so was oblivious. I still got to my destination.

Plus, in some cases first class on a train isn't worth rushing for - or is the first place to fill up by those who do know.

Some people here do seem to think the railway has an obligation to tell people if first class is or isn't in operation, and if it doesn't then you can be there.

And this chancer seems to be arguing that it's the same front and rear, so you can ignore the rules. Maybe I'll try that on a plane and sit in first class, except here I'll argue that the plane is going to the same destination so why should some people be forced to slum it in economy? No doubt the same sort of person who takes another seat on a plane and then tries to shame the occupant into sitting somewhere else because they didn't want to pay to sit together.

We can opt to support these chancers, but not be surprised when certain perks get removed and enforcement gets stronger.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is that not what penalty fares are for as opposed to prosecution? I'd argue the system has worked well here.

It’s arguable what penalty fares are for, but it is better they were PF’d and not reported certainly.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

They're for honest mistakes as a means of learning the lesson.