Govia Thameslink first class penalty fare dispute

[WesternLancer]

It really isn’t fair though to expect passengers to catch that piece of scrolling text when it happens to come onscreen. Not everyone is a rail enthusiast and the reality is that your average passenger who only rides on fully declassified suburban services is going to assume the same applies whenever they ride a class 700.

In a society where people are kinder to each other, one might expect the guard to simply inform the passengers of their mistake and give them the chance to move before slapping them with a fine, but alas…

And most people surely understand that something labelled first class needs a first class ticket.

I’d go so far as to say despite the uk complex ticket system this is an internationaly recognised convention.

 

[AlterEgo]

The area is clearly advertised as First Class.

There is no guard on these trains, there are random checks by teams of ticket inspectors.

In a society where concessions and discretion are offered, there will always be people who serially take liberties then protest when caught out and required to pay the fare. And these people can end up making things worse for others who are prepared to accept the concessions for what they are and abide by the terms. This guy has kicked off in the media, what I imagine most passengers don't want is for Thameslink to remove the rear compartment concession.

There really shouldn’t be any first class at all on those units. A few commuter TOCs have no first class at all.

 

[bramling]

It really isn’t fair though to expect passengers to catch that piece of scrolling text when it happens to come onscreen. Not everyone is a rail enthusiast and the reality is that your average passenger who only rides on fully declassified suburban services is going to assume the same applies whenever they ride a class 700.

In a society where people are kinder to each other, one might expect the guard to simply inform the passengers of their mistake and give them the chance to move before slapping them with a fine, but alas…

Surely the average passenger would assume all first class applies? Most people are going to be wary of sitting in first, so would presumably make sure they know what the score is.

 

[WesternLancer]

Nobody should be charged for sitting in those seats until they sort out the signage. After all this time there's no excuse for continuing to cause the confusion this does, It's hardly rocket science to put signs up at each end of the trains saying that on (the specified routes) when at the front you must have a first class ticket to sit there but on (other specified routes) and when at the back of the train you don't. Currently if you are not sure you have to watch the electronic display continuously for 8 minutes (or whatever the right time is) to see if there is a message about this or not - so at least that amount of time should be allowed as a grace period after boarding.

The scrolling displays only show this information for a few seconds with several minutes in between - their alternative would be to dedicate some displays to this information, showing it for a substantial fraction of the time on the displays in and by those compartments while trains are stopped at stations and for several minutes after departure.

Again. If in doubt just don’t sit there.

 

[AlterEgo]

And most people surely understand that something labelled first class needs a first class ticket.

I’d go so far as to say despite the uk complex ticket system this is an internationaly recognised convention.

Indeed, but the areas are routinely declassified and the majority of first class compartments rolling around TL right now are declassified!

 

[WesternLancer]

There really shouldn’t be any first class at all on those units. A few commuter TOCs have no first class at all.

But there will be longer distance season ticket holders on the routines Brighton to London who have first clsss seasons allowing all operator use on a route with southern also.

It’s not a metro train for some passengers.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I’m sorry but I cannot agree with this assessment.

The compartment is clearly marked as 1st class and the default position is that you need a 1st class ticket to use the compartment, unless you are aware of the declassification policy.

The outcome of this is likely to be the re-classification on the rear compartment as 1st class so people should be careful what they wish for.

Exactly right. Don’t sit next to a ‘1st’ sticker if you hold a standard ticket. Hardly rocket science.

 

[NARobertson]

A big problem is that there is a lot of inconsistency between railway companies. I was on 1st class on two GWR trains last week. On both a passenger with a standard class ticket upgraded to 1st class for £50 or so. On another occasion a group of four who were unwilling to upgrade were put off the train at Swindon. But nobody was fined.

 

[FOH]

I’m not surprised there’s been confusion - these trains have first class compartments at both ends, yet at any given time a maximum of one of them is in use, on some services neither are in use, and the average passenger is expected to know exactly which of the 20+ trains per hour on Thameslink have first class ticket restrictions and where.

and yet the OP in the X post was Penalty Fared at London Kings Cross. I wonder many Stevenage to Kings X trains don't have first class restrictions.

 

[Oggworth]

And most people surely understand that something labelled first class needs a first class ticket.

Except for the times when it consistently doesn’t, on the exact same trains, run by the exact same company.

To give another example, the Standard Plus section on TfW’s 197s is currently declassified, and so I will always sit there if there’s space as I’m sure any one of us would. If TfW one day decided to implement a Standard Plus ticket type, and failed to inform passengers except for occasional scrolling text on a screen, I too would make a fuss if they attempted to then fine me.

It is not fair or reasonable to expect passengers on crowded commuter trains to give their full attention to one single screen for, what, eight minutes to figure out whether they have fallen foul of Thameslink’s completely arbitrary system.

 

[WesternLancer]

Except for the times when it consistently doesn’t, on the exact same trains, run by the exact same company.

To give another example, the Standard Plus section on TfW’s 197s is currently declassified, and so I will always sit there if there’s space as I’m sure any one of us would. If TfW one day decided to implement a Standard Plus ticket type, and failed to inform passengers except for occasional scrolling text on a screen, I too would make a fuss if they attempted to then fine me.

It is not fair or reasonable to expect passengers on crowded commuter trains to give their full attention to one single screen for, what, eight minutes to figure out whether they have fallen foul of Thameslink’s completely arbitrary system.

The trains are never crowded such as anyone’s forced to sit there. If in doubt just don’t sit there as I’ve said. Simples. They are really long trains, never full since the collapse of regular commuting post covid.

 

[gabrielhj07]

It is not fair or reasonable to expect passengers on crowded commuter trains to give their full attention to one single screen for, what, eight minutes to figure out whether they have fallen foul of Thameslink’s completely arbitrary system.

Nobody is asking that though. Simply that passengers wishing to use this declassification should do so properly, not by carelessly sitting in 1st then whinging about being caught.

 

[Oggworth]

Nobody is asking that though. Simply that passengers wishing to use this declassification should do so properly, not by carelessly sitting in 1st then whinging about being caught.

If you had only ever used Thameslink suburban services, where it’s entirely declassified, how are you supposed to know that it doesn’t apply elsewhere on Thameslink?

 

[bramling]

I’m not surprised there’s been confusion - these trains have first class compartments at both ends, yet at any given time a maximum of one of them is in use, on some services neither are in use, and the average passenger is expected to know exactly which of the 20+ trains per hour on Thameslink have first class ticket restrictions and where.

In my opinion if someone is caught sitting in the wrong section of the train they should be given the opportunity to move, only if they refuse to do so should they then get a penalty fare. Unfortunately much of the railway has a policy of treating any passenger that isn’t perfect as a criminal.

But if someone is “confused”, why sit there? There will be 7 or 11 other carriages to use. Absolutely no compulsion for anyone to be using one of these areas, whether classified or not. Aside from that, I see no issue with the signage.

Where there *is* a grey area is when 2x 387 turn up, as is how the case on many GN services. Is the rear first class declassified on those as well?

 

[Hadders]

There really shouldn’t be any first class at all on those units. A few commuter TOCs have no first class at all.

I disagree. I frequently make a journey between Stevenage and Brighton. I’d say 1st class should be available on journeys of that length, especially as the standard class seats in the class 700s are so uncomfortable.

A big problem is that there is a lot of inconsistency between railway companies. I was on 1st class on two GWR trains last week. On both a passenger with a standard class ticket upgraded to 1st class for £50 or so. On another occasion a group of four who were unwilling to upgrade were put off the train at Swindon. But nobody was fined.

If everyone was prosecuted you’d say staff should use discretion.

To give another example, the Standard Plus section on TfW’s 197s is currently declassified, and so I will always sit there if there’s space as I’m sure any one of us would. If TfW one day decided to implement a Standard Plus ticket type, and failed to inform passengers except for occasional scrolling text on a screen, I too would make a fuss if they attempted to then fine me.

I’m not familiar with TfW so if I was using one of their services with a standard class ticket I’d make sure I didn’t sit in a section of the train marked as 1st class.

If people with more TfW knowledge knew that 1st class was declassified then I’d be happy for them to crack on and sit there.

The trains are never crowded such as anyone’s forced to sit there.

Actually they often are packed but in my experience declassified 1st class is usually the first carriage to have all the seats taken.

I always used to use declassified 1st but I’ve ceased doing so as it’s effectively become ‘chav class’ these days.

 

[Transilien]

Maybe to avoid this Thameslink could take first class more seriously, rather than having a declassified section of first class just have ether both sections classified as first or have it all standard class like Southeastern has done.

 

[DanNCL]

and yet the OP in the X post was Penalty Fared at London Kings Cross. I wonder many Stevenage to Kings X trains don't have first class restrictions.

700s don’t at one end and that’s what the passenger in question was travelling on.

But if someone is “confused”, why sit there? There will be 7 or 11 other carriages to use. Absolutely no compulsion for anyone to be using one of these areas, whether classified or not. Aside from that, I see no issue with the signage.

Where there *is* a grey area is when 2x 387 turn up, as is how the case on many GN services. Is the rear first class declassified on those as well?

More likely is that passengers, being used to first class being declassified at both ends on other 700 worked services, are confident that it is declassified until suddenly they’re stopped by staff.

The solutions are either have first class restrictions at both ends at all times or abolish first class altogether. The latter is the better option in my opinion.

 

[Hadders]

Maybe to avoid this Thameslink could take first class more seriously, rather than having a declassified section of first class just have ether both sections classified as first or have it all standard class like Southeastern has done.

700s don’t at one end and that’s what the passenger in question was travelling on.


More likely is that passengers, being used to first class being declassified at both ends on other 700 worked services, are confident that it is declassified until suddenly they’re stopped by staff.

The solutions are either have first class restrictions at both ends at all times or abolish first class altogether. The latter is the better option in my opinion.

To repeat what I said earlier, the class 700s were specified with fewer standard class seats so that more people could stand.

The 8-car versions actually had an increase in 1st class seats which was not acceptable when the number of standard class seats was reduced. Therefore, to mitigate this, it was agreed that one of the 1st class compartments would be declassified on all class 700s.

 

[bramling]

More likely is that passengers, being used to first class being declassified at both ends on other 700 worked services, are confident that it is declassified until suddenly they’re stopped by staff.

The screens in the 700s are quite prominent, and the message displayed is quite clear “This area is for use by first class ticket holders only”. It’s quite rare for the screens not to be working.

The solutions are either have first class restrictions at both ends at all times or abolish first class altogether. The latter is the better option in my opinion.

Or the solution may very well be “do nothing”, since the current arrangement seems to work reasonably well most of the time. Though in a perfect world I’d have the whole 700 fleet reworked such that the whole train was done out as the first class is, at which point the first could probably be done away with.

I think first is quite lucrative on certain elements of Thameslink, for example Cambridge and Brighton, presumably why it has survived when other routes have lost it. The other issue is that now we have 700s covering numerous GN services, you’d either have to remove it on the whole lot, or have a situation where certain services won’t have it where a 700 is either diagrammed or substituted.

Can’t help but find this is a fuss about nothing. Someone made an error, it’s as simple as that. Not everything needs to be immediately classed as a problem that needs a solution.

 

[FOH]

700s don’t at one end and that’s what the passenger in question was travelling on.


More likely is that passengers, being used to first class being declassified at both ends on other 700 worked services, are confident that it is declassified until suddenly they’re stopped by staff.

I say again, this is a Stevenage to Kings Cross commuter, not someone who mostly goes down the Wimbledon branch. From the Great Northern (as that is actually the operator of the service) website

Types of First Class ticket
Great Northern services on our long distance routes have first class accommodation. Routes with and without first class are shown below. Where first class is available, this will be clearly indicated by signage on the relevant carriages. On routes served by Thameslink trains, first class accommodation can be found at the very front of the train. The first class compartment at the rear of Thameslink trains is always declassified.

Routes with first class operate between;

King’s Lynn/Cambridge and London King’s Cross/St Pancras
Peterborough and London King’s Cross/St Pancras
Routes with standard class only operate between;

Stevenage/Hertford North and Moorgate
Welwyn Garden City and Moorgate

 

[gabrielhj07]

If you had only ever used Thameslink suburban services, where it’s entirely declassified, how are you supposed to know that it doesn’t apply elsewhere on Thameslink?

I am a somewhat regular user of SWR's Windsor Line services, the class 450s on which have their First Class section declassified. Would it be reasonable, therefore, for me to expect to be able to sit in First, on a standard ticket, between London & Portsmouth?

 

[DanNCL]

Can’t help but find this is a fuss about nothing. Someone made an error, it’s as simple as that. Not everything needs to be immediately classed as a problem that needs a solution.

It’s not changed as a problem, it’s just this has highlighted it as a problem more prominently than it had been previously.

I say again, this is a Stevenage to Kings Cross commuter, not someone who mostly goes down the Wimbledon branch. From the Great Northern (as that is actually the operator of the service) website

This particular journey was from Stevenage to Kings Cross. None of us have any way of knowing whether the passenger in question travels every day or if their normal journey is elsewhere (unless mentioned in the article that’s behind a paywall and not quoted in the opening post).

The operator is Govia Thameslink Railway regardless which brand it’s running under. It’s reasonable to expect the ordinary public to treat a train with Thameslink logos on it as if it were running under Thameslink rules. It’s not reasonable to expect every passenger to read a a webpage that you won’t find unless you actively searched for it before travelling.

And by adding that quote you’ve highlighted a completely different issue, that a train with Thameslink branding has different first class restrictions depending on whether it’s running a service under the Thameslink brand or if it’s running a service from exactly the same operator under the Great Northern brand.

 

[AdamWW]

The screens in the 700s are quite prominent, and the message displayed is quite clear “This area is for use by first class ticket holders only”. It’s quite rare for the screens not to be working.

Good to know. I've never been in the actual first class bit.

The message in the declassified end is not at all prominent. It only appears for a brief period as part of a long cycle of information and you generally have to stare at the screens for quite a while to see it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I disagree. I frequently make a journey between Stevenage and Brighton. I’d say 1st class should be available on journeys of that length, especially as the standard class seats in the class 700s are so uncomfortable.

1st is a Fainsa seat that isn't quite the Sophia but has the metal bar problem. Thus I'd pay more for Standard!

TBH I am not sold on the idea that Thameslink needs 1st. It's a commuter operator. It's only GTR and SWR left with it.

 

[sheff1]

And most people surely understand that something labelled first class needs a first class ticket.

And their understanding would be incorrect. There is more accommodation on Thameslink labelled as first class where a first class ticket is not required than where it is.

A big problem is that there is a lot of inconsistency between railway companies.

Indeed. On TfW recently the person checking tickets was telling people they should never book a walk up first class ticket as it would be cheaper to pay the upgrade on the train. She was very clear that people should just board and take a seat in first class and wait for somebody to come to them.

The trains are never crowded such as anyone’s forced to sit there. If in doubt just don’t sit there as I’ve said. Simples. They are really long trains, never full since the collapse of regular commuting post covid.

I have been on a number of Brighton route trains on a Saturday post Covid which have most definitely been full and standing with no seats available.

 

[bramling]

It’s not changed as a problem, it’s just this has highlighted it as a problem more prominently than it had been previously.

Surely if it was a really significant issue then this highlighting would have happened rather sooner than 6 years in?

Most reasonable people are going to carry out their own research before just placing themselves in a seat clearly marked as first class.

If there is any problem it’s that the standard class accommodation on these trains isn’t great, hence why people are wanting to use the first class areas.

 

[duffield]

If you only check sporadically, and only ask people to move rather than give them a penalty fare, there is absolutely no disincentive to sit there, and so really no point in having 1st at all.

EMR have a "please move" policy rather than penalty fares, but they check new passengers frequently, including typically just a few minutes after leaving London, Nottingham, Sheffield and Derby so there's no point in trying it on, you just end up with the hassle of moving (and finding a seat) and don't get to sit in 1st for more than a few minutes. As soon as the checks stop (on the services from London to Nottingham typically after leaving either Leicester or Loughborough) you get a significant influx of non-1st passengers on the more crowded services.

So you can have intensive checks with a lenient "please move" policy.
Or much less frequent checks with a penalty fare policy (although on TL they are arguably far too infrequent)

But if you have infrequent checks with a "please move" policy it's totally ineffective.

 

[MrJeeves]

The trains are never crowded such as anyone’s forced to sit there.

That's really not true. Even this last Saturday, I took Thameslink into London and the service was absolutely crowded from Gatwick onwards. Every single carriage showed as "red" on the loading indicators except, amusingly, the rear coach which was yellow.



Alternatively, I could bring up another experience trying to get to Luton from London:



"Never" is totally disingenuous. No, it may not happen every day, but Thameslink can and is semi-regularly rammed.

 

[duffield]

That's really not true. Even this last Saturday, I took Thameslink into London and the service was absolutely crowded from Gatwick onwards. Every single carriage showed as "red" on the loading indicators except, amusingly, the rear coach which was yellow.

View attachment 170858

Alternatively, I could bring up another experience trying to get to Luton from London:

View attachment 170857

"Never" is totally disingenuous. No, it may not happen every day, but Thameslink can and is semi-regularly rammed.

Yes, I've been on TL recently when it's been full and standing, in the core, true, but not in traditional peak times.

 

[WesternLancer]

If you had only ever used Thameslink suburban services, where it’s entirely declassified, how are you supposed to know that it doesn’t apply elsewhere on Thameslink?

By the same means you found out that the suburban service was declassified?
Which for most people we can assume is not by reading column heading symbols in the national rail timetable.