Future of Island Line

[Chris125]

What happened to the service such that it went from being run with effectively six 7-car (well, 5.5ish) trains to just five 2-car units? THat's quite a massive reduction in capacity.

What happened was a change in travel habits, people took holidays abroad or came to the Island by car or coach - however I understand that capacity was only necessary on summer saturdays, about 6 days a year apparently, requiring a huge fleet of vehicles and infrastructure that otherwise saw little use.
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On a more serious note, I've always wondered how the remaining remnant of the Isle's system has managed to survive, when the rest of the extensive system has closed, and I'd never be surprised were its closure to be mooted.

The section that survived has always been the busiest by far - though I can't confirm this, I've seen 2 million passengers a year quoted for the railway towards the end of steam, yet it still carries around 1.4 million today despite the reduction in capacity and the closure of the line to Cowes and Shanklin-Ventnor.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My choice of using the bus is heavily influenced by the fact that the trains don't go to Ventnor, so it's necessary to catch a bus at some point anyway.

My wife and I have used all the major bus routes on the Isle of Wight as a method of seeing sights that keeping ones eyes on the road when driving the 4 x 4 precludes. Two such places are Alum Bay on the number 7 service and Bembridge on the number 8 service.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the Island Line ever were to be extended back to Ventnor, would it be in the 10s of millions or 100s of millions sort of cost range to do it/

 

[jon0844]

The feasibility study will probably cost a million or two these days!

 

[DelW]

If the Island Line ever were to be extended back to Ventnor, would it be in the 10s of millions or 100s of millions sort of cost range to do it/

There are industrial buildings in the way at Wroxall and Ventnor, and Southern Water use the tunnel for water mains - but at least that means the tunnel should be in reasonable repair.

Assuming those users are willing to be moved, at about 3 miles long it should only be in 10s not 100s of millions. Likelihood of it happening is very close to zero though.

 

[MarkyT]

There are industrial buildings in the way at Wroxall and Ventnor, and Southern Water use the tunnel for water mains - but at least that means the tunnel should be in reasonable repair.

Assuming those users are willing to be moved, at about 3 miles long it should only be in 10s not 100s of millions. Likelihood of it happening is very close to zero though.

At Wroxall, a tight squeeze for a single track might be possible between houses at the Ventnor end of the old station site, taking some parts of their gardens. These houses were not there at all when the line was open and their access roads cross the alignment too. It's likely the whole system would have to be classified as light rail in order to cross these roads on the level, as new heavy rail level crossings are not usually allowed. Diversion around the village is probably impossible or at least prohibitively expensive in the tight valley topography, and new grade segregated infrastructure along the original alignment would be expensive and highly obtrusive and objectionable.

 

[Chris125]

The last time Ventnor was looked at the very rough cost estimate was around £15m but that was essentially a desktop study and at 2001 prices.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are industrial buildings in the way at Wroxall and Ventnor, and Southern Water use the tunnel for water mains - but at least that means the tunnel should be in reasonable repair.

Assuming those users are willing to be moved, at about 3 miles long it should only be in 10s not 100s of millions. Likelihood of it happening is very close to zero though.

Ventnor is already served by the Southern Vectis bus services 3 and 6 from Newport, taking differing routes and affording quite a good overall service. What would be gained by changing the status quo?

 

[siriain]

Ventnor is already served by the Southern Vectis bus services 3 and 6 from Newport, taking differing routes and affording quite a good overall service. What would be gained by changing the status quo?

Changing the status quo is to improve public transport. Why keep things the same if they can be made better?

A re-opened railway would not serve Newport, but would be an extension of the Ryde-Shanklin service, which is somewhat faster than the parallel bus service (also the 3). It would also offer a better service to railway passengers travelling to and from Ventnor, as it would avoid the inconvenience of changing transport modes.

Additionally, there are still plenty of people who are happy to use trains, but wouldn't dream of using a bus.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Changing the status quo is to improve public transport. Why keep things the same if they can be made better?

Additionally, there are still plenty of people who are happy to use trains, but wouldn't dream of using a bus.

At what a cost some many millions just to keep some non-bus users happy.. I suppose they too have an aversion to using taxis.

I will say this again, Ventor for the size of the settlement is well served by public transport. Newport, whether you like that fact or not, holds a certain position in the administration of the island and is the public transport hub of the island.

 

[satisnek]

When we arrive in what I assume is Ryde from Portsmouth (going by the train ticket itinerary), we are going on to Ventnor Town - is it better to take a train and bus, or just get a bus from Ryde all the way?

Don't forget that there's also the hovercraft (which, when I used it some years back, was slightly cheaper than the catamaran) which deposits you on Ryde Esplanade right by the buses. The problem is that the mainland terminal is nowhere near a station (it has a bus link). The cat, on the other hand, has an excellent mainland rail connection but drops you at the end of a long pier. In short, you can't win.

On a more serious note, I've always wondered how the remaining remnant of the Isle's system has managed to survive, when the rest of the extensive system has closed, and I'd never be surprised were its closure to be mooted.

By the 1960s there were just two routes remaining: Ryde-Newport-Cowes and Ryde-Ventnor. I understand that BR was faced with a choice of retaining one or the other. The Newport route had a steady all-year-round traffic level while the Ventnor line had an enormous seasonal peak but was the less busy of the two during the winter months. The 'holiday route' was of course the one chosen for retention and electrification but the fact that the section beyond Shanklin was abandoned must surely be an indicator of how tightly things were costed. It's easy to comment on the folly of this decision today but to be fair, BR couldn't foresee how things would turn out decades in the future.

 

[Chris125]

I understand that BR was faced with a choice of retaining one or the other. The Newport route had a steady all-year-round traffic level while the Ventnor line had an enormous seasonal peak but was the less busy of the two during the winter months.

You may be right but I can't recall seeing that suggested before, it's always been my understanding that the Cowes line was only ever considered in addition to the Shanklin/Ventnor line due to it's relatively low use.

 

[Argosy]

You may be right but I can't recall seeing that suggested before, it's always been my understanding that the Cowes line was only ever considered in addition to the Shanklin/Ventnor line due to it's relatively low use.

As someone who moved to the Island in 1964 (St Helen's) and Cowes a year later I've seen the changes.

In them ol' days BR tended to route people via Portsmouth whether they were going to Cowes or not. However it was a bit illogical to travel from Cowes to Ryde then get to Pompey and on to Waterloo, when one could go to Southampton and then to Waterloo that way. Of course the Southampton, Isle of Wight and South of England Royal Mail Steam Packet Company Ltd (aka Red Funnel) didn't feature too highly on the rail timetable in those days.

With Newport I suppose on balance it probably would just have been easier to go via Ryde than Cowes. We had the COR units then on the Portsmouth line and Southampton wasn't electrified until a tad later so Ryde would have been quicker. Thus the flows on the Ryde - Newport - Cowes line would have been different to the Ventnor line because unlike the latter it wasn't predominantly one way up (to London via Ryde) and the other way back down.

Again look at the siting of the stations. With the exception of Cowes they were all (and still are) lousily sited in relation to the towns they serve(d)

Ryde Esplanade - ok but mainly a pier access point at the foot of a big hill
Ryde St Johns - middle of urban nowhere in the bottom of a dip with an uphill hike to the High Street
Sandown & Shanklin both at the back of their respective towns
Ventnor - Half way up St Boniface Down
Newport - At the back of the town but not as bad as Sandown or Shanklin but a 5-7 min walk to the middle
Cowes - best sited, a minute walk from the High Street.

The passenger role of the railways was largely getting you on or off the Island not really serving local needs to/from the retail areas. This clearly puts it at a major disadvantage. Almost like say Southampton Airport Parkway. Great for commuting/going to London or the airport, not so good for Eastliegh (which of course has its own station). This reduces the attractiveness of the network.

As I posted earlier if you had the network now that you had in 1950 you'd probably centre it on Newport, rather than Ryde. I think the Islandline is a good example of Geographical inertia in a transport sense.

We have the same problem up here with my local line to Stranraer. Great access point for Ireland but now the ferries are six miles away traffic levels aren't great, hindered by expensive fares and an ineffective tourism marketing organisation.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The feasibility study will probably cost a million or two these days!

I doubt te actual revenue is £2M - about a million in 2005 - average fare about 90 pence - so get saving !

 

[MarkyT]

By the 1960s there were just two routes remaining: Ryde-Newport-Cowes and Ryde-Ventnor. I understand that BR was faced with a choice of retaining one or the other. The Newport route had a steady all-year-round traffic level while the Ventnor line had an enormous seasonal peak but was the less busy of the two during the winter months.

I suspect the road plans for Newport had a lot to do with the decision to lose that route, even though that may have been the better route to keep for public transport. There are some similarities with the Ashburton branch in Devon, whose furthest reaches were swallowed up by the A38. Road construction didn't start for a few years after the railway had closed, and the fledgling preservation outfit had used the Newport station site for storage before moving their stock to Havenstreet.

 

[Greenback]

I was going to mention the poor siting of stations like Ventnor. Last time we were on the island, under a year ago, we took the bus from Newport to Ventnor and we had a good choice of where to alight. We got off right in the middle of the centre, which is much more convenient than the old station half way up the hill.

It's the same in Shanklin. You never seem to be far from a buss top, but the station can be a bit of a hike.

 

[jon0844]

I doubt te actual revenue is £2M - about a million in 2005 - average fare about 90 pence - so get saving !

I contributed, like many others, with my cheap Gold Card and never even setting foot on the island the whole time I had it!

But since it became cheaper to get the Litchfield ticket for a cheap Gold Card, SWT has lost that bit of revenue. So, I'm probably not helping the future expansion of the railway!

 

[fandroid]

My regular trips to the island these days involve getting to Cowes via Southampton. There are through rail tickets involving Redjet and its dedicated bus service from Southampton Central station. Red Funnel have a Southampton Central train departures screen in their Cowes Redjet terminal and have just installed TVMs there which sell train tickets as well as ferry tickets. The big shame is that through rail-bus-ferry-bus tickets are not available to Newport, as the connecting bus service is also superb. A rail revival is not needed there, just a slight improvement to integrated transport on the island itself ( even just a Cowes/Newport Plusbus would do it).

 

[The Ham]

Would there be any benefit from looking at additional/alternative station locations along the existing route?

Going forwards the most likely options would appear to be:
- Do nothing
- Update rolling stock (i.e. newer LU trains, otherwise do nothing)
- improvements to improve frequency (possibly requires more rolling stock, so may require to be done at the same time as a rolling stock update)

Anything else (i.e. reopenings or total closure) would appear to be too expensive (either in terms of money or politically).

 

[siriain]

Looking at the OS map, all the current locations seem fine, and no more than half a mile from the various town/village centres.

There were plans to replace the signalling with a cheaper token-based system, and to reinstate the Brading passing loop, thus locking the line into a half-hourly service (better than the current timetable for connecting with the Ryde-Portsmouth catamarans).

Network Rail apparently decided the current signalling could survive until the end of the SWT franchise in 2017, hence nothing was done when it might have been when the line was closed to repair winter storm damage in 2014.

Another missed opportunity occurred in 2006 when Ryde tunnel might have reconstructed during road improvements to alleviate the loading gauge height restriction.

We should assume perhaps that no-one will really want to spend much money on it, so possibly we might expect simplified signalling and a reinstated passing loop in the future, with the existing rolling stock soldiering on as best as it can.

 

[34D]

Surely trams (potentially powered by 750 v dc on the existing route) would be a more cost effective option for both rolling stock, and the potential to serve ventnor and newport (obviously with overhead or battery if on street)?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With regard to the loop at Brading, it's seems absolute madness that at some point it was decided to remove this loop (or single the line other than the current loop, I'm not familiar with the history) thus locking the line into an uneven interval service. The cynic in me wonders whether this was a deliberate attempt to undermine the business case for the line in order to bring about closure. If so, thankfully it didn't succeed but the situation needs sorting sooner rather than later.

 

[Greenback]

I, too was astonished when the Brading loop was removed. If memory serves, it was in or around 1989.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I, too was astonished when the Brading loop was removed. If memory serves, it was in or around 1989.

Surely if a loop was surplus to requirements and it was decided to remove one of the two, the sensible thing would be to keep the one that allowed a regular interval service. That's what makes me wonder if there might have been something fishy going on in terms of motives behind the decision that was made, whether it was the DfT (or late 1980s equivalent), local councils, or indeed NSE management.

 

[Firesprite]

I was going to mention the poor siting of stations like Ventnor. Last time we were on the island, under a year ago, we took the bus from Newport to Ventnor and we had a good choice of where to alight. We got off right in the middle of the centre, which is much more convenient than the old station half way up the hill.

It's the same in Shanklin. You never seem to be far from a bus top, but the station can be a bit of a hike.

It is a shame that the cliff railway was never built in Ventnor, due to only raising £7 towards the projected cost of £20,920.

http://www.iwhistory.org.uk/RM/funicularrailway/

 

[siriain]

Indeed, something like that would still be useful today.

I've found an old Island Line Replacement Review report from 2001 which recommended track improvements and acquiring newer cascaded LU stock, ideally leading to a 15-minute frequency throughout the line.
http://old-iwight.onthewight.com/living_here/environment/Transport_Strategies/images/IslandLineReplacementReport.pdf

Incidentally the current station maps suggest that all sections of disused track (at Brading, Ryde Esplanade and Ryde Pier Head) still remain in situ, although its current condition is likely to be questionable.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The removal of the double track between Brading and Sandown wasn't done with anything suspicious in mind. It was straight forward cost cutting as it led to the closure of both signal boxes at these stations, saving about £50k a year.

The peak service requirement at this time was a 20 minute interval one and providing a simple loop at Sandown meant that could still run.

Times change and re-instating the second platform line at Brading, this time as a simple loop, would make a lot of difference to the ferry links. One for any future bidder?

 

[30907]

Surely if a loop was surplus to requirements and it was decided to remove one of the two, the sensible thing would be to keep the one that allowed a regular interval service. That's what makes me wonder if there might have been something fishy going on in terms of motives behind the decision that was made, whether it was the DfT (or late 1980s equivalent), local councils, or indeed NSE management.

Wasn't it double track from Brading to Sandown, rather than two loops (since the 1920s), and it was straightforward rationalisation (the 1967 timetable, with both platforms at Shanklin, allowed for 5tph)?

A loop at Brading INSTEAD of Sandown would actually reduce capacity from potentially 3 trains per hour to 2, though they would be better spaced. Better to restore the double track.

 

[Greenback]

Surely if a loop was surplus to requirements and it was decided to remove one of the two, the sensible thing would be to keep the one that allowed a regular interval service. That's what makes me wonder if there might have been something fishy going on in terms of motives behind the decision that was made, whether it was the DfT (or late 1980s equivalent), local councils, or indeed NSE management.

I don't remember too much about it. At the time, I'd been out of work and couldn't afford to buy railway magazines regularly in order to keep abreast of things. When I started working again i did buy one or two magazines, and it wa sin one of those that I acme across a photo of Brading and news of the recent singling.

There may have been some queries about it at the time the removal was proposed, but by the time I became aware of it, the deed had been done and I was too late to read of any protests!

 

[Blaahh]

I rode the Island line a lot last summer and had two overriding thoughts. 1) SWT could do a hell of a better marketing job. 2) it would be better run as a complete heritage line. As much as the reinstatement of any line on the Island would get my vote, the bus service is comprehensive and even reinstating it back to Ventnor wouldnt seem to create much volume, as much as i love the town.