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Future of Island Line

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Bletchleyite

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I rode the Island line a lot last summer and had two overriding thoughts. 1) SWT could do a hell of a better marketing job. 2) it would be better run as a complete heritage line. As much as the reinstatement of any line on the Island would get my vote, the bus service is comprehensive and even reinstating it back to Ventnor wouldnt seem to create much volume, as much as i love the town.

To me the only way it would work viably is if it could be integrated into a single fare structure with the bus service, and the buses stopped competing with it and instead connected with it.

Failing that, I really don't see it as having much of a future.
 
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Buttsy

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There wasn't a loop at Brading, it was double track between Brading & Sandown until the mid 80s at least.
 

siriain

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There were passing loops at Brading, Sandown and Shanklin when the line originally opened in 1864. The Brading and Sandown loops were connected to form a section of double track in 1927, which was removed in 1988.
 

Greenback

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You are correct. It wasn't technically a loop! It might not have been necessary to retain all of the double track, but a loop could have been kept at Brading.
 

MarkyT

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You are correct. It wasn't technically a loop! It might not have been necessary to retain all of the double track, but a loop could have been kept at Brading.

An extra loop wasn't necessary for the 20-minute interval service that ran at the time of simplification. Trains could be timed to pass neatly at Sandown and on the double track through Ryde. With the service cut back from 3TPH to 2TPH the uneven 20/40 interval pattern became necessary because the infrastructure had been 'tuned' to the 20-minute frequency. Brading is the perfect passing place for a 30-minute regular interval service of 2TPH and there's space remaining to reinstate a loop at Brading. A 'Penryn-style' design with one of the loop turnouts part way along a lengthened platform could avoid building an expensive DDA compliant footbridge there with long ramps or lifts. The remainder of the line towards Ryde and Ventnor could then be simplified to form a single line with much of the complexity at the Ryde end removed, along with the loop at Sandown.
 

Argosy

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A 'Penryn-style' design with one of the loop turnouts part way along a lengthened platform could avoid building an expensive DDA compliant footbridge there with long ramps or lifts. The remainder of the line towards Ryde and Ventnor could then be simplified to form a single line with much of the complexity at the Ryde end removed, along with the loop at Sandown.

What is a Penryn-style design?

A guess is a long platform with a switch part way along leading to a loop. Train A arrives into the single line and stops then moves over the switch into the loop and away/waits for train B depending if loop the start of a double track section or not. Two minutes later train B arrives, and stops either in the other part of the loop or the space where train A was prior to taking the switch. Is that how it works?
 

Peter Mugridge

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Theoretically, can Island Line still run 3tph if it is required with the current stock? Although six 483s are still on the island, 483002 hasn't run for many a year.

That would be a yes, but they'd probably all be single units, maybe one would be a pair - I'm allowing for two to be on maintenance at any one time here.
 

yorkie

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What is a Penryn-style design?

A guess is a long platform with a switch part way along leading to a loop. Train A arrives into the single line and stops then moves over the switch into the loop and away/waits for train B depending if loop the start of a double track section or not. Two minutes later train B arrives, and stops either in the other part of the loop or the space where train A was prior to taking the switch. Is that how it works?
Penryn station has both platforms on the same side, so as to avoid the requirement for an expensive footbridge. See photo.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Theoretically, can Island Line still run 3tph if it is required with the current stock? Although six 483s are still on the island, 483002 hasn't run for many a year.

Would 483002 need a very major overhaul before it could be run again? Would things like the motors be well and truly seized up from not having been used for a very long time?
 

Greenback

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An extra loop wasn't necessary for the 20-minute interval service that ran at the time of simplification. Trains could be timed to pass neatly at Sandown and on the double track through Ryde. With the service cut back from 3TPH to 2TPH the uneven 20/40 interval pattern became necessary because the infrastructure had been 'tuned' to the 20-minute frequency. Brading is the perfect passing place for a 30-minute regular interval service of 2TPH and there's space remaining to reinstate a loop at Brading. A 'Penryn-style' design with one of the loop turnouts part way along a lengthened platform could avoid building an expensive DDA compliant footbridge there with long ramps or lifts. The remainder of the line towards Ryde and Ventnor could then be simplified to form a single line with much of the complexity at the Ryde end removed, along with the loop at Sandown.

In my opinion, retention of a loop at Brading would have provided a great deal more flexibility. On the Cambrian Coast there are loop facilities at several locations, which greatly aid in recovery when there is disruption and late running.

I'm quite surprised that, at the time, it was not felt that a half hourly service may be implemented in the future, even if it was only on Sunday or in the winter.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Would 483002 need a very major overhaul before it could be run again? Would things like the motors be well and truly seized up from not having been used for a very long time?

I suspect the motors might well have already been removed and put into the pool of spare motors and be in general use amongst the rest of the fleet?
 

Chris125

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If it was a privately-run railway, that had financially to stand on its own feet, how long would it take for financial difficulties to set in?

I'm not sure what your point is - it costs more to run than is recovered through fares, but that's hardly unusual either for a railway or public transport in general.
 
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30907

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In my opinion, retention of a loop at Brading would have provided a great deal more flexibility. On the Cambrian Coast there are loop facilities at several locations, which greatly aid in recovery when there is disruption and late running.

The Coast line is much more prone to disruption than the self contained Island Line, though.
Other single lines now worked to capacity because loops were taken out include Barnstaple and Falmouth (and Exmouth has been at capacity since the mid 50s!).

With hindsight a dynamic loop between Brading and Sandown would have given flexibility and simplified access issues at the same time.
 

MarkyT

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The Coast line is much more prone to disruption than the self contained Island Line, though.
Other single lines now worked to capacity because loops were taken out include Barnstaple and Falmouth (and Exmouth has been at capacity since the mid 50s!).

With hindsight a dynamic loop between Brading and Sandown would have given flexibility and simplified access issues at the same time.

On the other hand, removing the double track presumably saved cash-strapped BR some maintenance and renewal expenditure and also allowed them to close the signal box at Brading. The old layout with the double track section was flexible however, able to work with a 20 or 30-minute regular interval service. Does anyone know if this ability was used historically to vary service frequency according to day of the week, time of day or season. If so, was the timetable varied to fit in with similar timetable variations on the ferries?
 

Carlisle

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On the other hand, removing the double track presumably saved cash-strapped BR some maintenance and renewal expenditure and also allowed them to close the signal box at Brading. ?
Yes , 80s BR was mostly about trimming costs to keep routes open, little point in applying to government for more funding above what had already been allocated to BR that year
 
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Buttsy

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The 77-78 GBTT shows a half-hourly service Sept - May M-S, hourly Sundays. A 3TPH (xx07, xx37, xx52) service May - Sept M-F & Sun, 15 min service Saturdays May -Sept.

The Shanklin loop may have been still extant at this time.

In the 83-84 GBTT it shows a half-hourly service M-F May - June & Sept - May M-F with an almost 20 min service July - Aug (xx10, xx30, xx55). Saturdays were the same as M-F but only from October - May and the 20 min service May - Sept. Summer Sundays was 3TPH and hourly from October.
 
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30907

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The second platform at Shanklin, and the signal box, became surplus to requirements when Summer Saturday frequency dropped from 12min to 15min, which was quite early on. IIRC it went well before Brading, possibly in the mid 70s.
 

MarkyT

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A little animation showing how a 'Penryn-style' passing loop might work at Brading. By having both platforms on the same side the need for an expensive DDA compliant footbridge is avoided with its long ramps or lifts.

https://youtu.be/1H9EV0iT0dQ
 

jon0844

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Having just returned from IOW and using the Island Line twice, it seems an awful lot of people buy tickets on the train but the guard has to obviously return at each stop to open the doors, so I can see why fare evasion could be a problem.

The longitudinal seats had a fair bit of padding in places, but not in others. It was like a sine wave!

I had to wonder when these trains will be ready for cascading to Northern Rail...

Having arrived on Wightlink and the train having left just a few minutes before, the current scheduling clearly needs some work. We were close to just sitting on the 3 from Ventnor to Ryde and skipping the train (we had a rover) but as it turned out, on the return today the connection time worked out at Shanklin so we did change.

I can fully see why people will just take the bus instead, and even the walk along the pier wasn't that bad (we got off at Ryde Esplanade for a wander) so I'm not even sure I'd pay for the train at all next time we visit. It was nice to see what two years' season ticket had entitled me to travel on though!
 

SpacePhoenix

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Having just returned from IOW and using the Island Line twice, it seems an awful lot of people buy tickets on the train but the guard has to obviously return at each stop to open the doors, so I can see why fare evasion could be a problem.

Could guards panels be installed at every door or would that need a complete re-wire of the whole unit?
 

jon0844

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It was only 2 cars and when he walked next door, he 'logged out' (for want of better words) and then changed to the panels in the other carriage. That involved sliding something over, which was still accessible as he didn't close the flap. I didn't see any sort of key.

Clearly for such an old train, there's no way anything fancy is going to be done to speed things up. You'd need new rolling stock, and surely the ultimate solution would be DOO, with someone on board to simply sell tickets and nothing more?

It really is like going back in time (and not in a bad way, besides the poor service frequency). And I thought the St Albans Abbey line was like going back in time!
 

leytongabriel

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When last on the line the guard made no effort whatsoever to collect fares from people including quite a number using Smallbrook Junction to connect with the steam railway. Locals said this was quite usual. Might account for the low numbers said to be using this station.
 

jon0844

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People at Smallbrook Junction were standing by the steam train taking pictures of OUR train!

We had our tickets checked on both trips, but clearly two trips doesn't mean much.
 

Argosy

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Penryn station has both platforms on the same side, so as to avoid the requirement for an expensive footbridge. See photo.

Hi Yorkie, Yes I managed to find it after I posted. V interesting. Any ideas what the relative costs are for a ramped bridge versus loop a la Penryn? I am guessing the additional signalling costs may make the ramped bridge still cheaper but with in cab signalling........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If it was a privately-run railway, that had financially to stand on its own feet, how long would it take for financial difficulties to set in?

I recently spent some hours reading on all the former lines that once ran on the island and of the reasons for their closure.

Paul, in which book?
 

MarkyT

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I am guessing the additional signalling costs may make the ramped bridge still cheaper but with in cab signalling........

A Penryn Loop actually can save a signal versus a conventional configuration using colour lights because the bypass loop doesn't need a signal on it at all. See my animation here: https://youtu.be/1H9EV0iT0dQ

Whatever the track layout, there's no point in trying to avoid colour light signalling with some kind of token and stop-board lash-up. Apart from tokens being slow to exchange, the old hydropneumatic train operated points used originally on Central Wales NSTR, and RETB lines in the Highlands etc, are no longer available and they've all been converted to conventional point machines with local train detection and interlocking logic to command them and prevent them motoring under a train. They also need 'point indicators' for both facing and trailing moves that look remarkably like colour light signals! Add to that the requirement for TPWS at the stop boards (with an indicator) and today such an arrangement will likely cost no less than a modular TCB arrangement using the modern lightweight fold-down LED signals and axle counters for the local train detection and long single line block sections.

Cab signalling? Yes great but you still need train detection, point actuation, interlocking logic and a control centre. The ETCS pilot on Cambrian certainly demonstrated no economies over conventional TCB (both using axle counters). The latter has got cheaper, easier and quicker to engineer using the modular concept including the new signals.

For the vertically integrated Island Line there is a unique opportunity to control the whole simplified line from a workstation at (say) Ryde Esplanade station which could incorporate automation for normal working and be supervised by someone from the company (suitably trained as a signaller of course) who also had other duties such as running the ticket office or supervising train crew.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Paul, in which book?

I have the following four books in my railway archives:-
1)...Bembridge Branch Line...Peter A Harris
2)...Isle of Wight Railways...Richard Long
3)...Memories of Isle of Wight Railways...Mike Jacobs
4)...Railways of the Isle of Wight...P.C.Allen
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm not sure what your point is - it costs more to run than is recovered through fares, but that's hardly unusual either for a railway or public transport in general.

That is most certainly not good business practice to follow and not one to endear itself to normal commercial company practice.

A reading of the historical events of transport from the 1930's onwards in both rail and road will reveal that many railway branch lines and bus/tram/trolley bus services went to the wall as a result of an ever decreasing passenger usage. With regard to the Isle of Wight, look at the railway companies that once existed there and ask yourself why what runs now is the residue of what once was.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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A Penryn Loop actually can save a signal versus a conventional configuration using colour lights because the bypass loop doesn't need a signal on it at all. See my animation here: https://youtu.be/1H9EV0iT0dQ

Whatever the track layout, there's no point in trying to avoid colour light signalling with some kind of token and stop-board lash-up. Apart from tokens being slow to exchange, the old hydropneumatic train operated points used originally on Central Wales NSTR, and RETB lines in the Highlands etc, a

What about the use of the "radio token" system used on some routes in Scotland (can't remember the proper name of the system)
 
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