Future of Island Line

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is the position of Sandown station felt to be somewhat too far away from the town centre ?

 

[MarkyT]

Is the position of Sandown station felt to be somewhat too far away from the town centre ?

It's only about half a mile from the station to the esplanade and pier. It was not much more from the old Ventnor station to that town's sea front, but the vertical difference was somewhat greater than at Sandown!

 

[HSTEd]

Has this mechanism of providing a very low capital cost (and I imagine not horrendously high operating cost really) railway been considered anywhere else?

ie. why don't we get little branches set up with old tube stock whenever it is made redundant? It seems to work relatively well.

 

[najaB]

ie. why don't we get little branches set up with old tube stock whenever it is made redundant? It seems to work relatively well.

I'd like to remind the learned member of this thread...

 

[321over360]

Pity they don't think of ordering the New Tube for London in a 4 car format and use that on the Island Line as then you have the interconnecting cars so the guards can go through them, that way the design can be tested out in what can be treacherous conditions and see whether it will then work in London well instead of relying upon Londons cast offs all the time which given the state of the 72TS, by the time they are released from the Bakerloo they are only going to be fit for the scrap yard

 

[gazthomas]

Seems a great candidate for tram, then again low population

 

[baz52]

The tram idea seems very good , what about old southern rail stock there 3rd rail would they work on the island line? Anyway its a nice line and good for the locals too, should keep it.

 

[ainsworth74]

what about old southern rail stock there 3rd rail would they work on the island line?

Wouldn't fit through the tunnels at Ryde. That's why old tube stock is used.

 

[TheNewNo2]

How tall is the tunnel compared with a 313?

 

[BestWestern]

How tall is the tunnel compared with a 313?

Not as tall as... :-/

 

[al.currie93]

I don't think the current stock needs replacing. Like people have said, it's performing perfectly well still, and they're so simple and easy to maintain so why replace something when there's no need to? The only thing I think it needs is a passing loop at Brading to allow half hourly services (might even be able to allow 3tph in busy summers with this), a bit of paintwork and possibly removal of redundant track at Ryde to make it look less dilapidated - unless a shuttle between the pier and Ryde was going to be put into service as previously suggested.

Aa far as I know they do still run 4 car trains regularly - when I was last there, every day involved one two car and one four car train in service.

 

[Chris125]

How tall is the tunnel compared with a 313?

Can I point you to my previous post about the tunnel?

As Mark says "...the main issues with getting stock through the tunnel is the arch shape and width combined with 9-10 chain reverse curves within the tunnel" - a plan was proposed to use ex-Merseyrail stock in the 80s but each vehicle was around 17m long, conventional 20m stock would pose serious issues both in the tunnel and with the sharply curved platform at Ryde Esplanade.

I understand the greatest constraint on absolute height are some of the overbridges around Ryde - the first 03 shunter was stranded at Sandown until it's cab was cut down by a few inches to get under Smallbrook Lane.

 

[theageofthetra]

Would old DLR stock fit there? I also think that light rail/tram is really the only long term solution.

 

[HSTEd]

I'd like to remind the learned member of this thread...

The D-train proposal would likely go down better if they were being used on a relatively self contained branch line/system of branches that would be electrified with four rail - even really lightweight third/fourth rail to use them.

Even brand them up as 'xxxx Overground' or something.
Converting them to diesels just smacks of cheapskatism that makes it unpalatable.

(Four rail actually eliminates the current leakage concerns with third rail and thus the electrification could proceed even in areas with steel sleepers).

 

[Rick1984]

The ferry only runs hourly for the most part these days so in that respect lack of half hourly service isn't a problem.

On a note about the third rail on the pier; at Esplanade station there is a large gap in the live rail, at the transition onto pier. I guess this is due to waves breaking over this section at very high tide in windy conditions?

What surprises me is the trains stop and start on this section and that the trains can build enough moment to clear this section

 

[Domh245]

Converting them to diesels just smacks of cheapskatism that makes it unpalatable.

It is a case of them meeting market needs! Lack of self powered units, so self-powered units are provided! Installing 4th rail is a rather short term 'fix' as you then either have to purchase 4th rail trains (or use 'cast off' tube gauge stock), or rip up the 4th rail system once the D stock is finally knackered. And given that 4th rail is hardly the most efficient method of providing electricity to a train, I can't see anyone willingly installing it, combined with Network Rail's perfectly reasonable objection to installing steel rails carrying high voltages at ankle level! But that is a story for a different thread (the D-Train thread to be precise!)

 

[Rick1984]

I beleive Parry offer two car products so these might be feasible but again you might have clearance issues?

 

[HSTEd]

It is a case of them meeting market needs!

Except the whole project has now attracted such ire that it is doubtful they will ever see service in any quantity.

Lack of self powered units, so self-powered units are provided! Installing 4th rail is a rather short term 'fix' as you then either have to purchase 4th rail trains (or use 'cast off' tube gauge stock), or rip up the 4th rail system once the D stock is finally knackered.

D-stock is 4th rail - and if we go by the example of the standard stock then the trains will be able to go on another 40-50 years before they are 'knackered'.
That is before you spend any money on refurbishing them at all - the cam shaft replacement alone would probably see them in for that time period.

And given that 4th rail is hardly the most efficient method of providing electricity to a train, I can't see anyone willingly installing it,

It is considerably more efficient than a diesel train still - and I imagine people will install it if they are paid to, just as staff still conduct numerous third rail renewals all over the place.

combined with Network Rail's perfectly reasonable objection to installing steel rails carrying high voltages at ankle level! But that is a story for a different thread (the D-Train thread to be precise!)

The rails would be aluminium, not steel, it increases substation spacing and would allow use of standard Network Rail high conductivity conductor rails.

And with fourth rail it could potentially be engineered so that contacting only one rail would not lead to a shock - I am not sure if LU does this however.
The alternative is the D-trains become so toxic that they end up on the scrapline instead of in service.

But anyway - I will leave that discussion to another time.

 

[Clip]

They could... But at a price which probably won't be economic for the island - plus, isn't the island line third rail ? Has that ever been done on a tram ?

Cant be that difficult - the DLR trains(granted not really tram but you know what I mean) - arrived with a pantograph on 1 or 2 and they managed it.

 

[Chris125]

The ferry only runs hourly for the most part these days so in that respect lack of half hourly service isn't a problem.

It's half hourly during the periods of highest demand, when there's the most to be gained from better connections.

I beleive Parry offer two car products so these might be feasible but again you might have clearance issues?

Clearances are the least of it's problems, I really don't think the line's characteristics suit the concept of a lightweight vehicle powered by a flywheel and small engine - indeed any DMU will surely struggle to provide a timetable aligned with the Catamarans.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's half hourly during the periods of highest demand, when there's the most to be gained from better connections.



Clearances are the least of it's problems, I really don't think the line's characteristics suit the concept of a lightweight vehicle powered by a flywheel and small engine - indeed any DMU will surely struggle to provide a timetable aligned with the Catamarans.

I think the suggestion of PPM type vehicles was with regard to the currently disused track along the pier, becoming an independent shuttle between the pier head and Esplanade...

 

[Nym]

(Four rail actually eliminates the current leakage concerns with third rail and thus the electrification could proceed even in areas with steel sleepers).

I really really doubt it, would make an earth fault 20 times worse, so the bleed resistors wouldn't cope with it, especially with very spaced out subs.

 

[glbotu]

Does the Island Line suffer from not being connected to Newport or Cowes? Would there be any benefit to re-open?

 

[swt_passenger]

Installing 4th rail is a rather short term 'fix' as you then either have to purchase 4th rail trains (or use 'cast off' tube gauge stock), or rip up the 4th rail system once the D stock is finally knackered.

But any ex-LU 4th rail stock would be converted to 3rd rail operation for the Island Line, as was obviously already done with the 38 stock.

It isn't that difficult a conversion, they just need to fit return current brush gear to the axle ends, as on any other electric train.

 

[DelW]

Does the Island Line suffer from not being connected to Newport or Cowes? Would there be any benefit to re-open?

I think the steam railway which occupies much of the Ryde - Newport section might object!

Going any further than the eastern edge of Newport would be very difficult, as the old line went right through the middle of town on low embankments and viaducts with restricted road clearance. It's difficult to discern the old alignment now, but the Medina Way dual carriageway is almost certainly in the way.

The principal tourist resorts are those on the eastern coast and they are on the existing line, so that already serves much of the holiday traffic. Having said that, the Newport - Ryde buses run every 10 minutes in the daytime and every 15 minutes in the evening, so there is evidently demand.

 

[Deepgreen]

Is there any real advantage in replacing the '38 stock with '72s? Other than "it's newer", of course. If the '38s have been maintained satisfactorily thus far, then surely they can continue to be kept serviceable for the forseeable? Or are there some immediate looming issues with them?

They will be out of their 80 year warranty in 2018!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suspect they couldn't use the ex-Victoria line 67 stock because the cost of converting it from ATO would've been prohibitive hence the need to wait for 72 stock from the Piccadilly or 73 stock from the Bakerloo.

Other way round - '72 stock is on the Bakerloo.

 

[Chris125]

There was a well attended meeting at Shanklin Theatre tonight, which appears to confirm some suspicions about how this manufactured crisis came about, and hopefully some good news to boot - OnTheWight have live coverage but these are the highlights:


"Deborah says the MP was invited to attend. She reads his response which is along
the lines of Thanks for invite, but calling the meeting is unhelpful"

"David Pugh says the government have told him that they do not subsidise Island Line.
They say the line is part of a very profitable franchise."

"He says there is nothing from the government to suggest that they want the
line to be removed from the franchise. He says it's something that's been dreamt up locally"

"He says we are having to campaign against a locally created problem"

"[Cllr Steve Stubbings] says the deputy MD of the council had meeting with DfT today.
He says the tender for the franchise up in Feb 2017 WILL include Island Line."

"DfT will offer longer term support for a wider transport infrastructure task force.
He says the wider issue has been conflated to just Island line and was done,
in his view, mischievously"

"He says the DfT says the only way to remove the line from the franchise is to close it first.
He suggested the Goverment would not want to do that"

"Up next is Mick Tosh from the RMT. He's come from the mainland tonight as he represents
all the transport workers across the Island. He's disappointed the MP has started
the red herring and isn't at the meeting"

"Stewart Blackmore says MP and Nick Finney will certainly know the feelings of people
here tonight before they get home"

Chris

 

[Michael.Y]

So it was a Tory MP doing what Tory MPs do then.

 

[satisnek]

In practice they had to stop running up the pier if the waves were crashing over the third rail anyway, so underfloor equipment wasn't really an issue - it seems all they did was fit a splash guard under the resistor grids, just in case of a rogue wave.

As for putting it out of it's misery, don't forget the 1.5m passengers a year who use it! It remains the only public transport up the pier and it's invaluable during the summer when the roads can be horrendous. It's expensive to run, but for a self-contained railway suffering from a long running and labour intensive policy of patch-and-mend that's inevitable.

I seem to remember splash guards being mooted in the article I read. So it was as simple as that!

I've looked up the current state of affairs on the Island Line and was pleasantly surprised to find six units still operational (it says so in Wikipedia so it must be true!). Perhaps I had better elaborate on the visit I mentioned in my previous post. It was an April Saturday four years ago. Two trains were in service, I think one of them was two units (4 car). There was another unit at St. Johns Road which was obviously a runner; the rest looked like scrap. The trains I caught weren't exactly busy and the second line along the pier (for the shuttle service) appeared to have not been used for years. Like I said, depressing. If things have improved since then it may be worth another visit!

 

[cactustwirly]

I seem to remember splash guards being mooted in the article I read. So it was as simple as that!

I've looked up the current state of affairs on the Island Line and was pleasantly surprised to find six units still operational (it says so in Wikipedia so it must be true!). Perhaps I had better elaborate on the visit I mentioned in my previous post. It was an April Saturday four years ago. Two trains were in service, I think one of them was two units (4 car). There was another unit at St. Johns Road which was obviously a runner; the rest looked like scrap. The trains I caught weren't exactly busy and the second line along the pier (for the shuttle service) appeared to have not been used for years. Like I said, depressing. If things have improved since then it may be worth another visit!

Perhaps the other two units were cannibalised for parts. So perhaps they were scrap?