First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[F Great Eastern]

A couple of shots of the PIS at Warrington at 13:28 today.

Perhaps Virgin should be putting more effort into providing correct, up-to-date information for their passengers, and slightly less trying to get them to sign a pointless and sad petition.

Someone in the industry said to me today actually that some TOC's outside of the two involved in this case are very pleased by what is going on, because they feel it could help them reduce their own premium payments in future.

He said companies who felt they had good support from passengers would under-bid in future, in the knowledge they could then turn around and present a petition of supporters on the PR spin that the other operator who offered more, over-bid.

As I said, it's not just the simple Virgin vs First here, if this gets overturned it throws the whole system into chaos and you could end up in a situation where every franchise gets disputed.

 

[Failed Unit]

They had a very similar message scrolling across the internal screens on my Pendolino this morning, too, although admittedly without the erroneous display of train times!

Do you think it would be wrong of me to go with a bottle of champange on the last VT service

Won't shed a tear over the loss of Virgin, more spin over substance. Very good at taking the credit for other people investment but reluctant to spend thier own cash!

Interesting that people think first have overpaid - didn't they say the same thing about FGW?

I know that the collapse of PUG2 was not down to Virgin, but it would be interesting to compare what was bid on this franchise and what we have now. Virgin always portray themselves as the victims but they certainly have made a lot of money out of it.

 

[PR1Berske]

A couple of shots of the PIS at Warrington at 13:28 today.

Perhaps Virgin should be putting more effort into providing correct, up-to-date information for their passengers, and slightly less trying to get them to sign a pointless and sad petition.

That's pretty low behaviour from them.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That's not even desperate, it's just embarrassing. If I got to the point where I was using tactics like that I'd probably give up and safe my dignity.

I don't think this will set a precedent per se, I doubt any company in the UK rail market at the moment could drum up so much support (which I suspect is down to spin and the international brand). I mean, c2c have done a brilliant job, however if they lose to say SNCF, would all this happen (on a smaller scale obviously)? I doubt it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

At this stage I wouldn't be surprised if they got it overturned to be honest, it's got to a level now where there is nothing more left to say, nothing surprises me anymore about the whole situation.

Whoever won the contract and whoever was whinging I'd be of the same opinion. I just know I'll avoid the West Coast at all costs in the future and avoid Virgin totally, I think I hate them more than National Express, who will no doubt get the GWML, and should both of these things happen then forget my interest int he railways.

 

[Failed Unit]

That's not even desperate, it's just embarrassing. If I got to the point where I was using tactics like that I'd probably give up and safe my dignity.

I don't think this will set a precedent per se, I doubt any company in the UK rail market at the moment could drum up so much support (which I suspect is down to spin and the international brand). I mean, c2c have done a brilliant job, however if they lose to say SNCF, would all this happen (on a smaller scale obviously)? I doubt it.

Didn't GNER go to some pretty big lobbying, write to you MP etc during one of thier franchise bids. I know they won, but I am sure Virgin would have gone for that kind of lobbying if they were allowed to pre-award. The irony that it is Warrington photographed, one of Virgins "we don't want to spend our money on the station so it is in the top 10 worse in the UK list", and has not had the benefit of the service improvements other parts of the network have.

 

[Lampshade]

That petition is now at 79,000 signatures hock:

Respect slowly ebbing away, if they were that good, they wouldn't need to ask passengers to sign it.

 

[sonic2009]

What exactly will happen if the petition does reach the required number of signatures?

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

 

[YorkshireBear]

What exactly will happen if the petition does reach the required number of signatures?

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

They may discuss it in parliment... nothing major

 

[Lampshade]

What exactly will happen if the petition does reach the required number of signatures?

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

Then it'll be considered for debate in the House Of Commons.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When it does reach 100,000 (no ifs I don't think!) will the contract signing still go ahead on the 28 August regardless (assuming Virgin haven't officially complained)?

 

[northwichcat]

I was sad when Thames Television went (also showing my age). No Internet then to share outrage and disappointment.

In this case a consortium involving Richard Branson (CPV-TV) was actually the highest bidder but was disqualified on quality grounds with Carlton winning the franchise as the highest qualified bidder. As with the East Coast rail franchise last time, it isn't always a case of highest bidder wins.

Thames Television's documentary of how Thatcher's government ordered the SAS to assassinate 3 IRA members based in Gibraltar who were believed to be planning to detonate a bomb in Marbella wouldn't have helped Thames in winning the next franchise.

Granada Television retained the North West franchise, despite not being the highest bidder as Phil Redmond's Mersey Television outbid them but their bid was rejected by the government.

Had those two decisions gone differently we might not have lost regional TV on channel 3 which was caused by ITV Digital going bankrupt and the joint partners Granada and Carlton having to merge and cut costs to not both go bankrupt.

In the case of rail franchises who knows what would have happened if First Group had won the original West Coast franchise. If Branson had come in now with his Virgin Trains proposal for the WCML people might have been telling him to get lost.

Virgin might have been innovate with the on board shop idea but then First Group have been innovate with the entertainment class idea and managed to implement it on ageing rolling stock.

 

[Failed Unit]

Then it'll be considered for debate in the House Of Commons.

Of most likely standard answer from DFT saying the took the best bid. The petitions are a waste of time really. However I have not heard many MPs saying the want virgin to stay even Labour ones. I don't think the airline will eat away at rail it is really the new BMI.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When it does reach 100,000 (no ifs I don't think!) will the contract signing still go ahead on the 28 August regardless (assuming Virgin haven't officially complained)?

Definately, larger petitions then that have being ignored!

 

[Lampshade]

Thames Television's documentary of how Thatcher's government ordered the SAS to assassinate 3 IRA members based in Gibraltar who were believed to be planning to detonate a bomb in Marbella wouldn't have helped Thames in winning the next franchise.

Death on the Rock may have contributed, but Thames were too complacent, thinking their history was enough to seal the deal. Look at TVS and TSW, who lost their franchise on the grounds of having bid too high, yet were actually correct with their forecast revenue.

Granada Television retained the North West franchise, despite not being the highest bidder as Phil Redmond's Mersey Television outbid them but their bid was rejected by the government.

They only had Brookside to fall back on. Plus Granada executives help draw up the quality threshold criteria, hardly a surprise.

Had those two decisions gone differently we might not have lost regional TV on channel 3 which was caused by ITV Digital going bankrupt and the joint partners Granada and Carlton having to merge and cut costs to not both go bankrupt.

Brand unification occurred in October 2002, Granada and Carlton didn't merge until 2004.

Anyway, back on topic

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Chris Green's article in this week's Rail is worth reading, to show where Virgin did take risk and made direct investment - such as TASS on the 390/221 fleets. If anyone should know, it's him.
People forget there have been three flavours of franchising and in the first round there were more risks for the TOC than those signed later.

The only thing that matters now is whether Virgin challenge the First win by August 28, and on what grounds.
We still don't know the whole story of what their bid contained (or the other losers for that matter) and how they were marked.
The petition thing seems only designed to generate a sympathy vote for Branson, just like his airline antics. It can't make a material difference.
On the plus side, Virgin staff today seemed bright and cheerful, despite recent events. Good for them.

Another cautionary tale: the last LUL escapee to take on the West Coast was the Railtrack guy who promised 140mph moving block signalling by 2005.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Can someone clarify what the respective roles of Virgin, RailTrack/NR and the DfT were in the WC line upgrade and paying for the Pendolinos and Voyagers? Whose idea was it all, who managed it, and who paid for it, etc?

 

[fgwrich]

A couple of shots of the PIS at Warrington at 13:28 today.

Perhaps Virgin should be putting more effort into providing correct, up-to-date information for their passengers, and slightly less trying to get them to sign a pointless and sad petition.

That's not even desperate, it's just embarrassing. If I got to the point where I was using tactics like that I'd probably give up and safe my dignity.

I don't think this will set a precedent per se, I doubt any company in the UK rail market at the moment could drum up so much support (which I suspect is down to spin and the international brand). I mean, c2c have done a brilliant job, however if they lose to say SNCF, would all this happen (on a smaller scale obviously)? I doubt it.

No supprise, it's still style over substance from Virgin then. Unfortunatly, it's not just the PA Systems which are flashing this 'idependant' petition up...

Anyone checked Virgins website today?
http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/

As well as that, it seems Virgin are spamming peoples inboxes with the Save Virgin petition. Still, the further they carry on with this, the deeper the whole Virgin will dig for themselves.

 

[tbtc]

First has asked for tenders for a £7m advertising contract to design and advertise the brand for West Coast, its to be franchise specific and not mention its part of First Group.
Knee jerk reaction to the anti-First public reaction? They must have done work designing a brand to use before now surely?

Sudden knee jerk reaction?

Or maybe just First using the Horizon brand that they planned to before the winning bid was announced, and nothing to do with the Virgin hysteria?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can someone clarify what the respective roles of Virgin, RailTrack/NR and the DfT were in the WC line upgrade and paying for the Pendolinos and Voyagers? Whose idea was it all, who managed it, and who paid for it, etc?

Richard Bowker (who ran the SRA at the crucial time, after being one of the original Virgin bid team) once said "no-one knows the whole story" (of the WCRM fiasco).

The WC franchise was advertised in 1996 for 15 years with two elements:
OPRAF/Railtrack - to renew the West Coast like-for-like (ie to 110mph non-tilt) but to high reliability.
OPRAF/TOC - replacement of all trains, still 110mph. There was an option called PUG1 to go to 125mph and tilt from 2003.
Virgin won with the PUG1 option included, and very much pushed the tilt design.
There was then a third element contracted after the franchise started: Virgin/Railtrack - PUG2 upgrade to 140mph south of Crewe from 2005

Virgin then designed the trains with Alstom, Angel Trains and RT and procured them through Angel, based on a lease to 2012.
OPRAF/SRA (=DfT) had very little to do with this bit, other than approving the subsidy profile.

The contracts fell apart in 2000/01 after Hatfield and Railtrack collapse, with RT unable to deliver PUG2 (or even PUG1 until much later).
There was then an emergency "letter agreement" between DfT and Virgin until the franchise was "restated" in 2008 after something close to PUG1 was delivered.
The franchise became essentially a management contract for the intervening years, the costs falling on DfT and NR.

There's obviously a lot more, but every time you say it happened this way, somebody jumps up and says it wasn't like that.
I'm just going on what Roger Ford reported at the time.
It all left a lot of bad blood, notably at RT/NR, and probably within DfT.
Allegedly, it was all down to the expertness of the Virgin lawyers in drawing up the contracts, led by Tom Winsor (later the Rail Regulator and currently sorting out the police).

 

[junglejames]

Virgin suggested it. DFT liked it all and so the franchise agreement was signed with that in mind. However Virgin never suggested that they would pay for it. They just said they wanted it to happen. So it was agreed on the basis that Railtrack and the government would fund it.
The trains were purchased by the ROSCO, after agreement with Virgin. Virgin lease the trains. Obviously if these trains are more expensive to lease, then thats down to Virgin, but that would have been included in the original bid. No doubt Virgin would have included anincreased subsidy to cover any increase in operating costs.

 

[table38]

Definately, larger petitions then that have being ignored!

Didn't Tony Blair say something like "the only difference it makes is that now we have their email addresses"

 

[junglejames]

Just to prove these people signing the petition have absolutely no idea whats going on. It doesnt seem to strike them as odd that Virgin havent asked for a review into it all. Somebody on FB told me as blatantly as anything, that Virgin will definitely be allowed to keep the franchise after this epetition, and the news that parliament were looking at something to do with it all (cant remember exactly what). Ive just laughed at them all and left them to it. Ive no doubt that First will remain victorious, and that all of these campaigners will soon realise they were getting in a sweat for nothing when they realise its not a 142 pulling into the station come December!!

 

[Zoe]

OPRAF/Railtrack - to renew the West Coast like-for-like (ie to 110mph non-tilt) but to high reliability.

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/HoC_WestCoast2010.pdf

An information memorandum was issued in October 1996 inviting bidders to put forward offers for a 15-year franchise based on improvements to journey times and frequencies. This upgrade was negotiated with Railtrack by the Office of Rail Passenger Franchising (OPRAF) 11 and assumed a new fleet of trains and an increase in running speed to 200km/h.

It seems the 125 mph upgrade was negcoiated between OPRAF and Railtrack before the franchise was let.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not really the behaviour of a company that wants more franchises.

Did first throw thier toys out the pram when they lost Great eastern? Look at them now. Like wise national express went quietly after losing MML, Scotrail and Central and won the big prize of EcML (so they thought)

I am surprised stagecoach are not saying - walk away as they will want other franchises as the come up.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/HoC_WestCoast2010.pdf
It seems the 125 mph upgrade was nogecoiated between OPRAF and Railtrack before the franchise was let.

Thanks for the link. The HoC document is very interesting, though like everything else it is post hoc rationalisation of the events.
It's difficult to know where the PUG1 option with tilt crept into the cycle.
My recollection is that Railtrack costed WCRM as 3 incremental layers - core, PUG1 and PUG2.
The trouble is that PUG1 and PUG2 required rework of the core and were not truly incremental (eg the OHLE upgrade).
This is where it gets impossible to untangle how RT/NR rolled out the project.
Anyway it's clear who paid for it - the taxpayer via NR's credit card!

PS I've got it now: the WCLM 110mph Core upgrade was agreed between DfT and Railtrack in 1995 as part of the privatisation commitments of Railtrack (as was completion of Thameslink).
This preceded the franchise competition in 1996 which by then included PUG1 as you say.

 

[jon0844]

First has asked for tenders for a £7m advertising contract to design and advertise the brand for West Coast, its to be franchise specific and not mention its part of First Group.
Knee jerk reaction to the anti-First public reaction? They must have done work designing a brand to use before now surely?

We already suspected the use of Horizon in some way, but why ask for tenders before you won?

1) If First approached companies before, one would almost certainly leak the info.
2) What agency would waste time and money coming up with a detailed pitch if First might not have won?

So no kneejerk reaction, merely one that shows First is pressing on and isn't bothered by this pointless petition.

 

[F Great Eastern]

We already suspected the use of Horizon in some way, but why ask for tenders before you won?

1) If First approached companies before, one would almost certainly leak the info.
2) What agency would waste time and money coming up with a detailed pitch if First might not have won?

So no kneejerk reaction, merely one that shows First is pressing on and isn't bothered by this pointless petition.

The latest spin being put out by some Virgin supporters is that if First do keep the trains and improve things, this will because they have realised that everyone is against them and therefore they must copy Virgin rather than do things their own way so therefore anything positive that now happens, or any investment that is made is done purely on the basis of the strong hatred for First and a knee-jerk reaction and thanks to all those loyal supporters who signed the petition are making First to reconsider their strategy so therefore Virgin are somehow responsible for anything positive that happens in future even if they don't get the line.

There is even one guy claiming now that First are putting anytime fares down by 15% because Virgin originally proposed this and now First are copying it to try and win some brownie points and catering is being kept also simply because of the strength of the feeling among users and the numbers who have signed the petition. Of course, when someone tells them there is no connection and it was going to happen anyway, they claim that such people have a connection to First.

 

[12CSVT]

A couple of shots of the PIS at Warrington at 13:28 today.

Perhaps Virgin should be putting more effort into providing correct, up-to-date information for their passengers, and slightly less trying to get them to sign a pointless and sad petition.

If Northern and ATW use that platform wouldn't they have grounds for complaint (or even legal action) over the misuse of the CIS monitors.

 

[Failed Unit]

I have only had experience of 2 franchises first have taken over. FCC and Scotrail, IMHO both have improved. I would include TPE in that but haven't because it is a joint venture. FGW is respected after a bad start, so no reason to think the won't do a good job of it. They haven't had lots of rolling stock taken off them for a start!

 

[jon0844]

I certainly can't see how First could fail to run it well. It seems almost as self contained as c2c and so very easy to control. Anyone should be capable of managing it.

Anyway, as is normal these days, when Virgin does finally go away from rail and Joe Public realise not a lot has changed, we'll get the press suddenly switch views and say Virgin were no good anyway.

The mass hysteria and nonsense at the moment reminds me of the death of Princess Diana (didn't she die the same year Virgin Trains began? One for the Daily Express?!). The press were always hounding Diana and exposing how she was hypocritical and trying to play the media. Then she died and suddenly nobody could say anything bad about her.

Virgin was never this popular before it lost the franchise.