First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Failed Unit]

Are any of the press wanting virgin to stay? Always a case of we know virgin good and bad - fear of change etc.

 

[Mr Spock]

The screens at Crewe this morning were also scrolling the "keep Virgin" message which I agree is not only desperation but pathetic. Surely these screens are for giving train information plus messages to do with trains rather than political propaganda.

Virgin obviously know that they have no legitimate complaint about the awarding of the franchise to First so are trying the back door method of e-petitions and saying that they are only doing it because that is what the public want.

As much as I would have liked Virgin to keep the West Coast the sooner First sign the contract and get on with preparing to take over the better as far as I am concerned as Virgin with their antics have lost any dignity and respect.
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I certainly can't see how First could fail to run it well. It seems almost as self contained as c2c and so very easy to control. Anyone should be capable of managing it.
.

I would hardly call it self contained as practically for the whole length it is in competion with another TOC whereas c2c only has its self to contend with, actually a bit like FGW.

 

[junglejames]

The latest spin being put out by some Virgin supporters is that if First do keep the trains and improve things, this will because they have realised that everyone is against them and therefore they must copy Virgin rather than do things their own way so therefore anything positive that now happens, or any investment that is made is done purely on the basis of the strong hatred for First and a knee-jerk reaction and thanks to all those loyal supporters who signed the petition are making First to reconsider their strategy so therefore Virgin are somehow responsible for anything positive that happens in future even if they don't get the line.

There is even one guy claiming now that First are putting anytime fares down by 15% because Virgin originally proposed this and now First are copying it to try and win some brownie points and catering is being kept also simply because of the strength of the feeling among users and the numbers who have signed the petition. Of course, when someone tells them there is no connection and it was going to happen anyway, they claim that such people have a connection to First.

What FB page are these on?
I havent seen these comments myself (there are now too many 'save Virgin' FB pages). But it is absolutely impossible to argue with them. First they claim you work for First (they obviously dont realise how that could easily be turned round onto them!!). Then they claim youve never used First. Then they say youve never used Virgin. Then claim you dont use the railways. Next they will try and say you are telling lies and talking rubbish. Next they then tell you to look things up properly as documents prove them right. Even though thats exactly what you have been telling them to do. Try telling them Virgin dont have very good performance figures, and they tell you to go and look it up properly. Eh, how exactly do you think this is known in the first place?!!!
Eventually once they have well and truly lost the argument, they just keep repeating that Virgin are the best, and First are rubbish. Although they wont let you win, you know you have done when you get that response!!

Somebody once claimed First had bribed the government. I questioned this statement and suggested that he had no doubt passed all proof onto the relevant authorities. As you can expect, I never received a reply.
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If Northern and ATW use that platform wouldn't they have grounds for complaint (or even legal action) over the misuse of the CIS monitors.

I wondered that. When i was at WBG, the message was on all screens. Including on a platform not used by Virgin. Only ever used by Northern and ATW.

 

[Realfish]

The HoC Transport Select Committee have now requested that the signing of the franchise agreement be delayed.


http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...ittee/news/west-coast-rail---chairs-comments/

 

[F Great Eastern]

I havent seen these comments myself (there are now too many 'save Virgin' FB pages). But it is absolutely impossible to argue with them. First they claim you work for First (they obviously dont realise how that could easily be turned round onto them!!). Then they claim youve never used First. Then they say youve never used Virgin. Then claim you dont use the railways. Next they will try and say you are telling lies and talking rubbish. Next they then tell you to look things up properly as documents prove them right. Even though thats exactly what you have been telling them to do. Try telling them Virgin dont have very good performance figures, and they tell you to go and look it up properly. Eh, how exactly do you think this is known in the first place?!!!

Will try and dig them out, didn't see all of them on Facebook however, saw them as comments on a few articles and was just generally saying what was some of the things I've read today, so many bloody groups even I'm losing track of what i what, the trouble is along with what you have said, I've also noticed that some of these support created groups are deleting posts that have a lot of anti virgin posts made on them, and the user then reposts what they posted before with all of the negative posts obviously no longer there, I've also been banned from one Virgin fan page simply for pointing out the facts.

The transport select committee has requested the awarding of the franchise to be delayed: http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/tsc-letter-calls-for-delay-in-west.html

So I think it's inevitable Virgin will win now, I've pretty much come to that conclusion as the Government will want to be seen to do the right thing in the greater population, despite their limited knowledge on the subject, particularly with recent polls going against the government.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The HoC Transport Select Committee have now requested that the signing of the franchise agreement be delayed.


http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...ittee/news/west-coast-rail---chairs-comments/

This raises the temperature several notches.
Apart from a potential "Government versus Parliament" debate we also face the prospect of delay in the handover, and any First-inspired investment.
On the other hand it will bring the process and some more bid detail into the open.

 

[jon0844]

The letter only asks, so I wonder if it could be politely ignored? (I guess not but it doesn't mean that Virgin now wins either).

This may even be a good thing for First Group.

 

[Rich McLean]

I also have a feeling Virgin will get back the franchise to keep Joe Public happy.

 

[northwichcat]

So I think it's inevitable Virgin will win now, I've pretty much come to that conclusion as the Government will want to be seen to do the right thing in the greater population, despite their limited knowledge on the subject, particularly with recent polls going against the government.

But the government doesn't want to be seen making too many U-turns or changing policy because the Labour opposition are against what they have proposed.

A couple of weeks ago Alistair Darling called for a lot more investment in the railways as a way of aiding the economic recovery. David Cameron responded to that by mocking him for being Chancellor when the recession started.

 

[tbtc]

I think it's inevitable Virgin will win now

I'm not surprised by Virgin's desperation, I could have understood if the Government had awarded the franchise to Virgin, but if the Government did change their minds now that First have been announced winners then that would be worrying for many reasons.

It'd firstly undermine the "fares need to go up to pay for investment" argument (if the Government decide that they don't want the bigger premiums of First)

Secondly it will delay future franchise awards, if the other bidders know that they have nothing to lose by appealing

Thirdly it'll make Virgin even more arrogant - they're not exactly a "team player" (e.g. setting up coach services, rather than encouraging people to use connecting trains)

Plus, are there some places which will lose out if First's plans don't happen (did Virgin promise Shrewsbury/ Bolton/ additional Bangor services etc? Surely they can't do all of these *and* run to Stirling? In which case some places will lose services that were announced as being commitments)

 

[Nym]

Either that or they just give it to GoVia or SCNF and have done with it...

Or better yet, hand it to Eddie Stobart, that would be a nice livery

Would also mean that someone else with a good public reputation would be running something

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'm not surprised by Virgin's desperation, I could have understood if the Government had awarded the franchise to Virgin, but if the Government did change their minds now that First have been announced winners then that would be worrying for many reasons.

It'd firstly undermine the "fares need to go up to pay for investment" argument (if the Government decide that they don't want the bigger premiums of First)

Secondly it will delay future franchise awards, if the other bidders know that they have nothing to lose by appealing

Thirdly it'll make Virgin even more arrogant - they're not exactly a "team player" (e.g. setting up coach services, rather than encouraging people to use connecting trains)

Virgin could also use this example again in the future to try and get other rail franchises using the same methods, remember many of their supporters are trotting out the fact that the two times they failed to get the ECML, the companies defaulted, and they were saviours on the WCML to prevent it happening again and they can use this to their advantage.

 

[Zoe]

If the Transport Committee do find that the process was flawed though, I'm not sure if that would automatically result in the franchise going to Virgin, I would have thought a retender is a possiblity.

 

[Nym]

Or perhaps going under DOR management until it can be re-tendered, or the tenders re-scored?

 

[tbtc]

Either that or they just give it to GoVia or SCNF and have done with it...

You mean those other two losing bidders, the ones who had a bit of dignity and were able to keep their toys in the pram?

 

[WatcherZero]

People are missing the point, the tender isnt to work on an existing brand, its to create a new brand for them, something they would already have if they planned to use Horizon or First Group.

 

[tbtc]

People are missing the point, the tender isnt to work on an existing brand, its to create a new brand for them, something they would already have if they planned to use Horizon or First Group.

Is Horizon really an "existing brand" though? Or just a name that First registered (that the public have never heard of and First have never marketed)?

 

[Nym]

You mean those other two losing bidders, the ones who had a bit of dignity and were able to keep their toys in the pram?

Yes...

Or they could just turn round and invite wildcard bidders, such as some of the FOCs or Road Hauliers over here...

Platform 5 for the 10:15 Eddie Stobart service to London Euston...

Freightliner? DRS? Malcolm Group?

How about Reed Boardall, we could have ice skating polar bears on pendos

 

[Manchester77]

Stobart West Coast has a nice ring to it IMO

 

[charley_17/7]

A couple of shots of the PIS at Warrington at 13:28 today.

Perhaps Virgin should be putting more effort into providing correct, up-to-date information for their passengers, and slightly less trying to get them to sign a pointless and sad petition.

Interesting that despite 15 years of Virgin 'investment', you can still see IC(WC)-style signage at WBQ. Says how much they care about their 'brand'.

 

[junglejames]

Will try and dig them out, didn't see all of them on Facebook however, saw them as comments on a few articles and was just generally saying what was some of the things I've read today, so many bloody groups even I'm losing track of what i what, the trouble is along with what you have said, I've also noticed that some of these support created groups are deleting posts that have a lot of anti virgin posts made on them, and the user then reposts what they posted before with all of the negative posts obviously no longer there, I've also been banned from one Virgin fan page simply for pointing out the facts.

The transport select committee has requested the awarding of the franchise to be delayed: http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/tsc-letter-calls-for-delay-in-west.html

So I think it's inevitable Virgin will win now, I've pretty much come to that conclusion as the Government will want to be seen to do the right thing in the greater population, despite their limited knowledge on the subject, particularly with recent polls going against the government.

I havent been banned. But i was told that one group was for Virgin only, and anti virgin comments werent allowed. (Obviously the irony in that never hit them!!). I just told them it wasnt anti Virgin comments i was making. Like you, I was trying to correct the incorrect posts. But as you have seen. It isnt seen that way.

Dont be too concerned about the delay. The IEP was delayed more than once, yet Hitachi still eventually won, and that deal had so many holes in it, it was embarassing.
I still expect First to win. They have made what seems to be the best bid, and the epetition is based on clever Virgin PR, and people assuming incorrect assumptions. Ie no Pendys etc etc.
Anyway, I doubt you could just hand the franchise to Virgin. You would surely have to go through the whole process again. This would lead to the new trains being delayed etc.
Actually thats a good one. Try telling the campaigners they are adding to the worlds pollution by doing this!!! Then try telling them they are delaying the introduction of extra trains and more capacity. That'll go down well!!

Anyway. As soon as it is seen what the epetition is based on, it will surely fail. I have no doubt Virgin will still end up on their backside. Only with a much heavier fall than would have been.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is Horizon really an "existing brand" though? Or just a name that First registered (that the public have never heard of and First have never marketed)?

No its a company founded to advance the bid if it loses they wind up the company and declare it as an accounting loss, if it wins they integrate it into the corporate structure. It insulates the losses and money spent on the bid from the accounts so that you cant ask 'This person works for First great Western, how long did he work on the bid and how much of First Great Westerns revenue was spent on the bid?' or 'Why has First Capital Connect spent £2m on stationary and office supplies for the bid when its not a core function of the subsidary?'. The trading name in the bid submission was 'First West Coast Limited'.

 

[Zoe]

Or they could just turn round and invite wildcard bidders

Depends on which stage they have to go back to if there is a retender, not sure if they could just issue the same ITT to the bidders or if it would have to go right back to the start with an OJEU notice.

 

[Manchester77]

Virgin have kept the old BR era signage at a lot of their stations. It at Preston. But to brand afaik they paint stuff in red benches etc.
It reminds me of NSE!

 

[Lampshade]

Interesting that despite 15 years of Virgin 'investment', you can still see IC(WC)-style signage at WBQ. Says how much they care about their 'brand'.

Same at every station north of WBQ and at Wolverhampton and Macclesfield. I only know of Stockport, Rugby, Stoke and Crewe that have new signage.

 

[jon0844]

Most people don't care either way but now feel part of something, sort of like a movement.

It's no different to middle class kids setting up tents in the city to protest against capitalism, blogging on their iPhone or MacBook, taking photos on their Canon EOS DSLRs, Tweeting it all and then going home to sleep in their warm bed in West London. They feel like they're fighting for the right to vote or something and the irony is totally wasted on them.

I guess there's also a need to be seen to support a brand like Virgin instead of not (or simply saying you don't care). I am a huge Virgin fan, always flying with them when I can. I like Virgin Media, go to V festival (well not this year) and even used to work for a Virgin company and met Richard Branson in person. Yet, I am disappointed by their actions which has really made me think less of them now.

Please Virgin, bow out gratefully and simply wait and bid again in the future (which they will, wait and see).

 

[WatcherZero]

That signage at Wigan North Western was just renewed a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Realfish]

This raises the temperature several notches.
Apart from a potential "Government versus Parliament" debate we also face the prospect of delay in the handover, and any First-inspired investment.
On the other hand it will bring the process and some more bid detail into the open.

Agreed re transparency. I'm not sure what First's investment might be, that Virgin's wouldn't - Virgin were also looking at Bambilino's. If it's the £22m for station improvements, that's ckicken feed.

BTW LNW-GW, Many posts ago you / I were speculating about the Trent Valley services (LTV, TAM). First have now said that these will remain - actually having taken a look at the tender document they were never in jeopardy - they were set in the DfT Train Service Requirement

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Same at every station north of WBQ and at Wolverhampton and Macclesfield. I only know of Stockport, Rugby, Stoke and Crewe that have new signage.

VT signage: Rugby, Birmingham International, Stafford, Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Stockport, Runcorn.
BR signage: Coventry, Wolverhampton, Macclesfield, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle.

(That's from memory!)

Aside from booking office work at Preston, Wigan NW and Stockport, and a new building at Warrington BQ, not much has changed on the northern half from what I can gather.

 

[junglejames]

DRS?

Oh god can you imagine the campaigners then? Theyd start claiming we were going to get 50yr old 60mph class 20s hauling Mk2 coaches. Theyd have you believe journey times would be doubled etc etc.