First Group: General Discussion

[Surreyman]

That cant be correct can it? Since the current First Edinburgh licences is PM0000923, which is FAR to high for Lowland, since it one of the original companies? Surly Lowland would have been either 9, 12 or 13, with Strathtay and Central or Kelvin taking the other slot?

1: First glasgow No1 - Old Sthycaylde buses
2: Lothian buses.
3: Midland bluebird.
4: Fife Scottish .
5: Bluebird .
6: First glasgow No2 - Central Scottish one.
7: Eastern Scottish
8: Western Scottish
9: ??????
10: A1 SERVICE
11ODDS OF TROON
12: ????
13: ?????
14: HUTCHISONS COACHES
15: Mcgills

Kind of going off on a slight tangent, i had no idea that operators licences were coded by area or operator, care to give a brief explanation?

On another note, quoting from info on another web site (No idea if it is legit), a price of £2.8m is being given for Stagecoaches purchase of Firsts Chelson Meadow depot in Plymouth.
Another web site states that 9 '14' reg Enviro 200s from Stagecoach Carlisle are planned for Plymouth.

 

[overthewater]

Kind of going off on a slight tangent, i had no idea that operators licences were coded by area or operator, care to give a brief explanation?

Do you mean in relation to what I postage in Scotland or overall? Its a first come, first served to licence number, ie all the Scottish bus group operators from 1985 would have been given all the lower numbers, and then it would work it way up.

On another note, quoting from info on another web site (No idea if it is legit), a price of £2.8m is being given for Stagecoaches purchase of Firsts Chelson Meadow depot in Plymouth.
Another web site states that 9 '14' reg Enviro 200s from Stagecoach Carlisle are planned for Plymouth.

Im surprised Carlise is going to give up those Enviro 200s I take it that price is only for the depot and nothing else?

 

[DunsBus]

That cant be correct can it? Since the current First Edinburgh licences is PM0000923, which is FAR to high for Lowland, since it one of the original companies? Surly Lowland would have been either 9, 12 or 13, with Strathtay and Central or Kelvin taking the other slot?

1: First glasgow No1 - Old Sthycaylde buses
2: Lothian buses.
3: Midland bluebird.
4: Fife Scottish .
5: Bluebird .
6: First glasgow No2 - Central Scottish one.
7: Eastern Scottish
8: Western Scottish
9: ??????
10: A1 SERVICE
11ODDS OF TROON
12: ????
13: ?????
14: HUTCHISONS COACHES
15: Mcgills

As far as I know, PM923 has always been the Lowland licence. I suspect this may date back to when the original Lowland Scottish company was established in 1985. After all, if it ain't broke...

 

[KendalKing]

Im surprised Carlise is going to give up those Enviro 200s I take it that price is only for the depot and nothing else?

The 14-reg'd Enviro E200's are currently in held reserve, since being replaced by Optare Solo's.

 

[overthewater]

As far as I know, PM923 has always been the Lowland licence. I suspect this may date back to when the original Lowland Scottish company was established in 1985. After all, if it ain't broke...

It just seems so high.

The 14-reg'd Enviro E200's are currently in held reserve, since being replaced by Optare Solo's.

I believe some have gone to Northampton. what I meant was Carlisle are having trouble with the solo replacements

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It just seems so high.

Perhaps not so high.... Wouldn't Highland have been there too? And what of Grampian and Tayside?

 

[Volvodart]

On another note, quoting from info on another web site (No idea if it is legit), a price of £2.8m is being given for Stagecoaches purchase of Firsts Chelson Meadow depot in Plymouth.

It seems odd that this is the same price as the aborted sale of the Barnstaple operations.

 

[Surreyman]

It seems odd that this is the same price as the aborted sale of the Barnstaple operations.

As I said, no idea if this is accurate, it only refers to the price of that specific bit of real estate, I am guessing that the Tavistock & Dartmouth outstations are leased?
With no vehicles being acquired, other than a bit of office furniture & engineering equipment, the only other figure would, in accountant speak be 'goodwill' which, in a loss making business, wouldn't exactly be high.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As I said, no idea if this is accurate, it only refers to the price of that specific bit of real estate, I am guessing that the Tavistock & Dartmouth outstations are leased?
With no vehicles being acquired, other than a bit of office furniture & engineering equipment, the only other figure would, in accountant speak be 'goodwill' which, in a loss making business, wouldn't exactly be high.

Goodwill is essentially the difference between what is paid and the actual reasonable assessment of the value of the assets.

If Stagecoach decided that they really wanted First Devon because of the depot facility etc they could well pay over the odds to get it. It isn't a reflection on the actual value of the First Devon intangible worth, loss making or otherwise.

 

[overthewater]

How big is the depot and is it modern?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How big is the depot and is it modern?

Opened 1999 to replace the sprawling Laira Bridge site. Probably can take c.125 vehicles?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The following was posted on the First Potteries website today:

Changes to First Potteries services in September 2015

Friday 17 July 2015


Following our announcement on 29 June of the proposal to close our Newcastle depot and merge the operations with our Adderley Green depot we can now confirm this will go ahead on Saturday 5 September. As a result of this, we will be making some changes to our services from Sunday 6 September.

For the vast majority of customers their service will be unchanged. We will continue to operate a large network of services covering the busiest areas of Stoke-on-Trent & Newcastle - with services up to every 10 minutes on the most popular corridors.


We have also increased the frequency on some services. Service 8 Hanley - Ball Green & service 98 Newcastle - Burslem - Ball Green are increased to every 20 minutes. Service 99 is increased to every 20 minutes between Newcastle, Tunstall & Chell Heath and combined together services 98 & 99 will operate every 10 minutes between Newcastle, Porthill and Trubshaw Cross.

There will be timetable changes on the majority of services.

There are, unfortunately, some areas where we are no longer able to continue operating. These are detailed below - where available we have given details of alternative operator's services. If replacement services become available we will add details to this page.

Service 3 will no longer operate between Keele University and Madeley. D&G Bus service 85/85B operates a similar route
Service 3 will no longer operate between Crewe Bus Station and Leighton Hospital. Various alternatives are available with D&G Bus and Arriva from Crewe Bus Station
The frequent service on service 3 between Keele, Newcastle, Stoke Station, Hanley, Tunstall & Crewe/Talke will continue to operate
Service 4A will no longer operate via Freeport and Wedgwood Road/Ashenough Road - all trips in Talke will operate via High Street & Monument Road
Service 7A is withdrawn. Mow Cop and Packmoor will be served by trial service 27, see below. Service 7, operating Hanley to Kidsgrove via Newchapel is increased to every 20 minutes during the day
Service 8B Hanley - Brown Edge Schools is withdrawn. Brown Edge Schools is served by trial service 28, see below. Service 8A will continue to serve the main road through Brown Edge to Endon
Service 9 Chell - Bradeley - Hanley is withdrawn. D&G Bus service 9 operates from Chell Heath Road into Hanley
Service 17 Hanley - Wolstanton Retail Park - Bradwell - Newcastle is withdrawn. Wolstanton Retail Park will be served by new shuttle service 97 from Newcastle operating via May Bank
Service 23 will no longer operate between Newstead and Stone/Eccleshall/Newport. This section of route was operated under contract to Staffordshire County Council who will announce a new operator in due course. There will still be a frequent service between Hanley, Fenton/Mount Pleasant, Blurton and Newstead
Service 29 Hanley - Festival Park - Burslem - Tunstall - Chell - Bradeley is withdrawn. Journeys between Chell Heath & Tunstall are available on First service 99, increased to operate every 20 minutes. Journeys between Festival Park & Burslem/Tunstall are provided on trial service 27, see below.
Service 72 Newcastle - Park Site is withdrawn. D&G Bus service 74 operates a similar route. The section of route between Newcastle & Clayton will continue to operate
Service 99A Biddulph - Tunstall - Newastle is withdrawn. First service 99 operates between Oxford, Tunstall and Newcastle. D&G service 94 operates from Biddulph to Newcastle


We will issue full details of all changes and timetables before the change - we hope to have these available from mid-August.

Details of other operator's services is provided as a courtesy but we cannot accept any responsibilty for inaccurate information. We suggest checking any information with the operator before travelling.

Trial services
We'll be introducing two new trial services to continue to provide buses to some areas affected by these changes. These services will operate 4 return departures each day, Monday-Friday.

Service 27: Hanley - Festival Park - Burslem - Tunstall - Packmoor - Mow Cop Service 27 introduces a link between Mow Cop/Packmoor & Tunstall following requests from local residents
Service 28: Hanley - Cobridge Health Centre - Norton Lane - Brown Edge Schools Service 28 introduces a link to Cobridge Health Centre following requests from patients


We will monitor usage of these services over the first months of operation before deciding whether we're able to operate them on a longer term basis.

Newcastle travel shop
As a result of the closure of our Newcastle depot, our travel shop in Newcastle bus station will close. The last day of business will be Saturday 5 September 2015.

Our travel shop in Hanley will remain open and sells our full range of tickets as well as National Express coach tickets and day trips.

You can also purchase our tickets on your mobile through our mTickets app and a selection of tickets are available to purchase online. Student tickets are also available for sale at Keele Students Union reception. Students at Newcastle College can also purchase a selection of tickets from the cash office in the college

Without access yet to detailed timetables, I estimate 14 vehicles worth of work disappearing in September, on top of the 3 vehicles worth disappearing next week. About 10% of the PVR, this coming on top of similar sized reductions as part of the service review in July 2014.

Off-peak requirement in April 2014 was 159 vehicles. This reduced to 145 in July 2014; 143 in May 2015; 140 in July 2015 and to 126 in September. Quite a turn-round! The Peak vehicle requirement isn't much greater than the off-peak requirement.

 

[Robertj21a]

The following was posted on the First Potteries website today:



Without access yet to detailed timetables, I estimate 14 vehicles worth of work disappearing in September, on top of the 3 vehicles worth disappearing next week. About 10% of the PVR, this coming on top of similar sized reductions as part of the service review in July 2014.

Off-peak requirement in April 2014 was 159 vehicles. This reduced to 145 in July 2014; 143 in May 2015; 140 in July 2015 and to 126 in September. Quite a turn-round! The Peak vehicle requirement isn't much greater than the off-peak requirement.

I think the new PVR from September will be just over 120.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Has Parkhead's Streetlites been transferred out? Been seeing a few of them recently on the 18, 21 and 34/A...

 

[scottish rider]

What happened to Vernon Barker (Managing Director UK Rail)? The latest Report & Accounts have an "Interim Managing Director UK Rail" - Dave Gausby. A result of those recent unsuccessful franchise bids?

 

[Surreyman]

I am guessing that First will soon start to transfer out vehicles not required, i.e school buses when the school term ends, plus trainers and long term VOR and then maybe all or most of the fleet the day before the handover?
It remains to be seen whether any First buses go 'On hire' to Stagecoach for a short time or more likely that Stagecoach will move in a complete fleet to cover the reduced PVR of the routes so far registered.
We may yet see some more route registrations of course, although as has been pointed out, the 56 days notice has already passed (I think short notice registrations are allowed?).
Come 7th September PCB may face some capacity issues in Torpoint & Saltash to name but 2 areas.
I wonder if they might use/bring in more Double-deckers or tweak the timetables?

 

[overthewater]

To be fair short notice registrations would be allowed IF stagecoach were registering a like for like registration.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To be fair short notice registrations would be allowed IF stagecoach were registering a like for like registration.

However, looks like "that's your lot" in terms of registrations. From what is being said, looks like they're not interested in Plymouth city, Saltash or Torpoint

 

[Goldfish62]

With all the current focus on Firsts 'scaling back', I can't help being aware of the political dimension.
I don't live a million miles from Bracknell, usually drive round it once a week, since the closure announcement I have googled 'Bracknell bus depot closure' a number of times, yes a brief article in local paper distilled from the press release but absolutely no sign of angry residents up in arms, councillors protesting, outraged local MP making political capital etc etc, pretty much indifference all round!

This is true. I live in Bracknell and many people seem to be blissfully unaware, or just don't care, that they're about to lose their bus service altogether (eg Forest Park).

With the new town centre opening in a couple of years time it's hardly ideal that bus services are now being run down to the bare minimum. Courtney have a lot to answer for - it's obvious they have only been interested in creaming off passengers from First on the most lucrative routes and have shown no interest whatsoever in trying to develop the market.

 

[Robertj21a]

This is true. I live in Bracknell and many people seem to be blissfully, or just don't care, that they're about to lose their bus service altogether (eg Forest Park).

With the new town centre opening in a couple of years time it's hardly ideal that bus services are now being run down to the bare minimum. Courtney have a lot to answer for - it's obvious they have only been interested in creaming off passengers from First on the most lucrative routes and have shown no interest whatsoever in trying to develop the market.

Don't worry, lots of disgruntled passengers (genuine and otherwise) will suddenly come out of the woodwork just before/after it all closes down, all highlighting how essential the service is to them, how they won't now be able to get to the doctor, school, work etc etc

Just a shame that 'Disguntled of Bracknell' didn't support the services when they were running !

 

[the101]

Sadly it's too often the case that smaller operators decide to compete with others, but on their own terms, i.e. during the daytime Mon-Sat. At other times, the incumbent is left to its own devices. All it does is destabilise the whole network and there is more than one operator in North Staffs which is guilty of doing exactly this. If re-regulation or franchising has one positive, it is that it would put a stop to things like this.

 

[Goldfish62]

Don't worry, lots of disgruntled passengers (genuine and otherwise) will suddenly come out of the woodwork just before/after it all closes down, all highlighting how essential the service is to them, how they won't now be able to get to the doctor, school, work etc etc

Just a shame that 'Disguntled of Bracknell' didn't support the services when they were running !

Yes, and no doubt go on about why doesn't the council "order" the operators to run more services...

 

[317 forever]

I think that First's latest housekeeping exercise still has some more mileage yet. I said in the First Kernow thread that more developments may follow on from Plymouth in the south west. I think they will sell or dump Yeovil, as it doesn't seem very profitable and they have no 2012-spec vehicles as far as I can tell. Stagecoach formerly Cook's Coaches and WebberBus would probably fill the gaps. I doubt they will pull out of other places trading as The Buses of Somerset due to this rebrand, nor out of Weymouth as they have some modern Streetlites there.

If they do divest places like Weymouth they would surely retrieve the 2012-spec vehicles for use elsewhere. I doubt First would part with such vehicles. Just as we once took buses in Olympia livery or lack of them as a clue as to potential divestments, now I think it is the presence or absence of such buses that give us the clearest clues.

Despite such retrenchment from First, they have had 3 expansions of sorts in the last 2 years. In December 2013 they took over the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth TrawsCymru service from Arriva. In February 2014 they took over Finglands from EYMS. Then in March 2015, following a minor expansion in Cornwall in competition with Western Greyhound, they took over much of the network following their collapse.

 

[overthewater]

Big questions has to be why would there have to sell? I also believe there is more chance of Yeovil going to Buses of somerset.

 

[mbonwick]

It's worth remembering that First said in their trading update that they expected one off costs of around £7m this year in connection with their efficiency improvements.

Now, that may not just include depot closures, but so far I don't think we're anywhere near that sum with the closures so far announced. Not sure how Plymouth fits into that either - although it's bringing funds in for First, they will have costs associated with staff redundancies.

 

[overthewater]

It's worth remembering that First said in their trading update that they expected one off costs of around £7m this year in connection with their efficiency improvements.

Now, that may not just include depot closures, but so far I don't think we're anywhere near that sum with the closures so far announced. Not sure how Plymouth fits into that either - although it's bringing funds in for First, they will have costs associated with staff redundancies.

When was the trading update released? One of the problems with £7m figure is, its just a rough idea. Staff cost could be lower, the money raised from land sell offs could also reduce that one off cost etc.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Well I never thought this would happen, but as of the 1st of August, First Glasgow will no longer be operating service 398. (Glasgow Central - Glasgow Queen Street Station Link)

Glasgow Citybus will be the operator that is running it from this date onwards...

 

[Strathclyder]

Well I never thought this would happen, but as of the 1st of August, First Glasgow will no longer be operating service 398. (Glasgow Central - Glasgow Queen Street Station Link)

Glasgow Citybus will be the operator that is running it from this date onwards...

What will happen to the two 'Saltire' Solos (50463 & 50465)? They will be debranded, I assume?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

What will happen to the two 'Saltire' Solos (50463 & 50465)? They will be debranded, I assume?

That's if Citybus take them, as they are essentially First vehicles. I would imagine Citybus will put their own Optares on them...

 

[Strathclyder]

That's if Citybus take them, as they are essentially First vehicles. I would imagine Citybus will put their own Optares on them...

Can't see 50463/465 going over to GCB, as they have more than enough Solos/short-bodied E200s (the 398's PVR is 2 buses, I'm right in saying?) to operate the route...