First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

DDA compliance is, of course, in excess of what the majority of people want or need. How compliant the various Devon Tridents are, you'll know better than I, and whether those that aren't technically compliant are just a relatively simple amend/recert?

I was more wondering whether those that head down from Yorkshire might be just slightly newer examples (e.g. 2001/2 rather than the older examples - again, I don't profess to know which of the older contingent are compliant or otherwise).

It's a very interesting year for First fleet movements.

Interesting that First Bus have, in a number of instances, still gone down the route [sorry !] of cutting services/frequencies in order to lower the pvr, and hence ease their DDA problems.

I can't help but think that a certain other major operator would have been more likely to look for ways of increasing bus passenger usage, driving up frequencies and developing a robust network which could support the purchase of newer vehicles.

 

[overthewater]

Interesting that First Bus have, in a number of instances, still gone down the route [sorry !] of cutting services/frequencies in order to lower the pvr, and hence ease their DDA problems.

I can't help but think that a certain other major operator would have been more likely to look for ways of increasing bus passenger usage, driving up frequencies and developing a robust network which could support the purchase of newer vehicles.

Or actually brought the new buses in the first place, with a well planned fleet renewal programme

Do Double decker really need to disappear from xmas 2017, if there only used on School runs?

 

[Surreyman]

Or actually brought the new buses in the first place, with a well planned fleet renewal programme

Do Double decker really need to disappear from xmas 2017, if there only used on School runs?

To briefly summarise what has been said in various forums, including this one (i.e it's not just my opinion/understanding).
Double Deckers which are Non Compliant can be used on private contracts i.e dedicated school/work contracts, private hire etc after 31/12/2016,
They can not be used be used on 'Public' services i.e where any member of the public can board and pay a fare (upfront or any form of prepayment).
Be aware though that some Authorities may stipulate that, for example a contracted school service must utilise DDA compliant vehicles.
This may even be the case where a separate minibus service is provided for pupils with a disability
Some services which are primarily aimed at School traffic are registered as 'Public' services i.e anyone can use them if they wish, these need to be DDA compliant.
There are some minor 'opt out' clauses which permit a non DDA vehicle to be used on a public service in certain circumstances for a minimum number of days a year.
So Olympians & non compliant Tridents & B7TL will be around for a few years yet!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interesting that First Bus have, in a number of instances, still gone down the route [sorry !] of cutting services/frequencies in order to lower the pvr, and hence ease their DDA problems.

I can't help but think that a certain other major operator would have been more likely to look for ways of increasing bus passenger usage, driving up frequencies and developing a robust network which could support the purchase of newer vehicles.

To be fair, that other major operator has undertaken similar cuts already. Brynmawr depot was downgraded with some fairly substantial cuts in the Eastern Valleys last year as a result of subsidy and reimbursement reductions whilst the Cowdenbeath depot goes as a result of a loss of tendered work.

Go back 10-15 years and it had the same style of divestments (Stratford, Eastbourne/Lewes. However, it had a smarter top guy who binned the CEO and didn't let pride get in the way of what needed to be done so the malaise was halted earlier.

 

[South Westerly]

Interesting that First Bus have, in a number of instances, still gone down the route [sorry !] of cutting services/frequencies in order to lower the pvr, and hence ease their DDA problems.

I can't help but think that a certain other major operator would have been more likely to look for ways of increasing bus passenger usage, driving up frequencies and developing a robust network which could support the purchase of newer vehicles.

That's not fact though is it. That's putting two and two together to make...

Have First said somewhere that PVR reductions are directly related to DDA?
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You have got 38 Tridents plus 6 Solos/Darts plus the 18 B7TLs that SW mentioned. That's 62 to replace the non DDA kit and make a serious inroad into the Olympians.

And plenty more cascades too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You have got 38 Tridents plus 6 Solos/Darts plus the 18 B7TLs that SW mentioned. That's 62 to replace the non DDA kit and make a serious inroad into the Olympians.

And plenty more cascades too.

 

[Robertj21a]

That's not fact though is it. That's putting two and two together to make...

Have First said somewhere that PVR reductions are directly related to DDA?


.

I wasn't trying to suggest any direct relationship, simply that it will 'ease their DDA problems'.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And plenty more cascades too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And plenty more cascades too.

Is there an echo.......

In all seriousness, it was just an illustration that despite 35 or whatever non DDA vehicles in Kernow, there were at least 60 vehicles on their way to replace them and more.

Clearly, there are going to be a lot of cascades across the group, some obvious and some less so, and a man in your position has knowledge of those.

 

[THarris123]

I've been trying to figure out some of the depots and what I know for sure will be clear from DDA by the end of the year.

Hampshire:- Hoeford - new vehicles to replace, Southampton - PVR reduction to withdraw last few remaining non-DDA vehicles, Weymouth - DDA compliant for singles, Yeovil - 06 Darts (ex Bristol & Southampton) should replace last of non-DDAs. Hilsea depot is the only one that will be left with a few Darts (10 or so) which I have no idea what will be cascaded in.
Devon/Cornwall - Kernow - vehicles from Plymouth & other depots, should be near enough DDA with closure of Plymouth. Taunton - think there's 3 singles left (60813/4 & 42832, which will easily go). Bridgwater - no idea about the deckers, but it's currently DDA compliant for singles.
Midlands - Worcester and Leicester are both DDA for singles already. New vehicles into those depots, closure of Newcastle and Hereford should clear out the 40 non DDA singles in AG.
Cymru - about 10 vehicles left until DDA compliance - E200s should clear that out.
Berkshire - few X reg Darts in Slough - I assume cascades from Bracknell will replace.
Glasgow, Edinburgh & Aberdeen - all the new vehicles into the fleet should clear out a lot, but there will be quite a few B10s left (W/X/Y reg). Some B10s will be cascaded out (likely to end up in Kernow).
Manchester - no idea.
Yorkshire - no idea - there's a lot of B10s left - I assume there must be some which are DDA compliant.
East England - new vehicles will replace most of the Scanias, etc. Think there may be a few B10s left. Don't know what's happening with the Darts.
West England - new vehicles will equate to well over half of DDA replacements. Should be about 10-17 vehicles left which I don't know about - maybe a cascade will replace?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you're looking for reciprocal sarcasm, then what have the B6s to do with anything - they're not DDA ??????

And I didn't know that - thanks!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've been trying to figure out some of the depots and what I know for sure will be clear from DDA by the end of the year.

Hampshire:- Hoeford - new vehicles, Southampton - PVR reduction to withdraw last few remaining non-DDA vehicles, Weymouth - DDA compliant for singles, Yeovil - 06 Darts (ex Bristol & Southampton) should replace last of non-DDAs. Hilsea depot is the only one that will be left with a few Darts (10 or so) which I have no idea what will be cascaded in.
Devon/Cornwall - Kernow - vehicles from Plymouth & other depots, should be near enough DDA with closure of Plymouth. Taunton - think there's 3 singles left (60813/4 & 42832, which will easily go). Bridgwater - no idea about the deckers, but it's currently DDA compliant for singles.
Midlands - Worcester and Leicester are both DDA for singles already. New vehicles into those depots, closure of Newcastle and Hereford should clear out the 40 non DDA singles in AG.
Cymru - about 10 vehicles left until DDA compliance - E200s should clear that out.
Berkshire - few X reg Darts in Slough - I assume cascades from Bracknell will replace.
Glasgow, Edinburgh & Aberdeen - all the new vehicles into the fleet should clear out a lot, but there will be quite a few B10s left (W/X/Y reg). Some B10s will be cascaded out (likely to end up in Kernow).
Manchester - no idea.
Yorkshire - no idea - there's a lot of B10s left - I assume there must be some which are DDA compliant.
East England - new vehicles will replace most of the Scanias, etc. Think there may be a few B10s left. Don't know what's happening with the Darts.
West England - new vehicles will equate to well over half of DDA replacements. Should be about 10-17 vehicles left which I don't know about - maybe a cascade will replace?

I think it was reported that 42832 had gone? The extra Essex Tridents were supposed to see the last non-DDA Darts off, I think?

Also, Leicester is receiving/has received 5 cascaded Streetlites from Manchester (according to WMBP Forum) so the cascades maybe more complex than envisaged for Midlands (and generally)

 

[THarris123]

I think it was reported that 42832 had gone? The extra Essex Tridents were supposed to see the last non-DDA Darts off, I think?

Also, Leicester is receiving/has received 5 cascaded Streetlites from Manchester (according to WMBP Forum) so the cascades maybe more complex than envisaged for Midlands (and generally)

I agree about Midlands - just looked at my list of vehicles - there are enough DDA compliant singles in Newcastle to clear out AG, with extra, which should mean the vehicles from Hereford and other vehicles from Leicester and Worcester should cascade elsewhere - maybe Yorkshire. Certainly seems very complicated, if not overcomplicated as well. Maybe we'll get some cascades in Bristol & Bath as well? Who knows.

 

[Surreyman]

First will of course meet all the deadlines for DDA compliance, we are all trying to figure out exactly how - New deliveries/Cascades/upgrading older vehicles/Depot closures/Service withdrawals and how does it all come together in vehicle numbers etc?
Unlike Stagecoach or Arriva where new vehicle orders comfortably meet or exceed the number of vehicles needing replacement, Firsts 'plan' seems to rely on considerable numbers of vehicle cascades combined with upgrades to older vehicles which, by other companies standards would have been replaced.
We know that all or most W & X regs have been upgraded, does anybody know how many S, T, & V regs have been done?
I don't know the scale of school contracts across all the subsidiaries, this could permit the continuing operation of Non DDA types past the deadlines.

 

[DD12]

First will of course meet all the deadlines for DDA compliance, we are all trying to figure out exactly how - New deliveries/Cascades/upgrading older vehicles/Depot closures/Service withdrawals and how does it all come together in vehicle numbers etc?
Unlike Stagecoach or Arriva where new vehicle orders comfortably meet or exceed the number of vehicles needing replacement, Firsts 'plan' seems to rely on considerable numbers of vehicle cascades combined with upgrades to older vehicles which, by other companies standards would have been replaced.
We know that all or most W & X regs have been upgraded, does anybody know how many S, T, & V regs have been done?
I don't know the scale of school contracts across all the subsidiaries, this could permit the continuing operation of Non DDA types past the deadlines.

Good post, Surreyman - (and everyone above) - thanks !

Don't forget to add-in late changes to plans to satisfy the accountants, and possibly irate managers, and temporary allocations pending the delivery of the 2016 order.

Plus (I think) 160 brand new buses (don't know when) for the Somerset Hinckley Point power station project.
I have never before known of so many variables in the mix - I too like to conjecture and guess what vehicles will go where, and will be on my local patch, but I've given-up this time !

 

[Robertj21a]

First will of course meet all the deadlines for DDA compliance, we are all trying to figure out exactly how - New deliveries/Cascades/upgrading older vehicles/Depot closures/Service withdrawals and how does it all come together in vehicle numbers etc?
Unlike Stagecoach or Arriva where new vehicle orders comfortably meet or exceed the number of vehicles needing replacement, Firsts 'plan' seems to rely on considerable numbers of vehicle cascades combined with upgrades to older vehicles which, by other companies standards would have been replaced.
We know that all or most W & X regs have been upgraded, does anybody know how many S, T, & V regs have been done?
I don't know the scale of school contracts across all the subsidiaries, this could permit the continuing operation of Non DDA types past the deadlines.

Whoa there !

I'm not aware of very many First Group W or X-reg saloons that have been made DDA complaint, just some B10BLEs. As far as I'm aware, virtually all remaining S, T & V reg saloons will be off to the scrap yard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it was reported that 42832 had gone? The extra Essex Tridents were supposed to see the last non-DDA Darts off, I think?

Also, Leicester is receiving/has received 5 cascaded Streetlites from Manchester (according to WMBP Forum) so the cascades maybe more complex than envisaged for Midlands (and generally)

Leicester has now got 5 Streetlites from Manchester and Potteries is in the process of receiving a further 5.

 

[KendalKing]

Also, Leicester is receiving/has received 5 cascaded Streetlites from Manchester (according to WMBP Forum) so the cascades maybe more complex than envisaged for Midlands (and generally)

True, Bury is to lose ten B9TL's to Huddersfield, with 37291,37293,37295-37296 having already gone.

TfGM owned Solo 59013, has been transferred to Stagecoach, as its 48803, along with others TfGM owned buses, following the lost of contract.

63096,63098,63100 have been transferred to Adderley Green.

63101-63105 have been transferred to Leicester.

 

[South Westerly]

Is there an echo.......

In all seriousness, it was just an illustration that despite 35 or whatever non DDA vehicles in Kernow, there were at least 60 vehicles on their way to replace them and more.

Clearly, there are going to be a lot of cascades across the group, some obvious and some less so, and a man in your position has knowledge of those.

Lol. It's a moving feast!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've been trying to figure out some of the depots and what I know for sure will be clear from DDA by the end of the year.

Hampshire:- Hoeford - new vehicles to replace, Southampton - PVR reduction to withdraw last few remaining non-DDA vehicles, Weymouth - DDA compliant for singles, Yeovil - 06 Darts (ex Bristol & Southampton) should replace last of non-DDAs. Hilsea depot is the only one that will be left with a few Darts (10 or so) which I have no idea what will be cascaded in.
Devon/Cornwall - Kernow - vehicles from Plymouth & other depots, should be near enough DDA with closure of Plymouth. Taunton - think there's 3 singles left (60813/4 & 42832, which will easily go). Bridgwater - no idea about the deckers, but it's currently DDA compliant for singles.
Midlands - Worcester and Leicester are both DDA for singles already. New vehicles into those depots, closure of Newcastle and Hereford should clear out the 40 non DDA singles in AG.
Cymru - about 10 vehicles left until DDA compliance - E200s should clear that out.
Berkshire - few X reg Darts in Slough - I assume cascades from Bracknell will replace.
Glasgow, Edinburgh & Aberdeen - all the new vehicles into the fleet should clear out a lot, but there will be quite a few B10s left (W/X/Y reg). Some B10s will be cascaded out (likely to end up in Kernow).
Manchester - no idea.
Yorkshire - no idea - there's a lot of B10s left - I assume there must be some which are DDA compliant.
East England - new vehicles will replace most of the Scanias, etc. Think there may be a few B10s left. Don't know what's happening with the Darts.
West England - new vehicles will equate to well over half of DDA replacements. Should be about 10-17 vehicles left which I don't know about - maybe a cascade will replace?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And I didn't know that - thanks!

I make it that BoS has at least 7 non DDA singles at present. They are being inventive and taking a batch of YSBs from Essex for college and school peak workings

There are certainly no B10Bs going to Kernow' quite the opposite. They are trying to get rid of full length singles as they have a finite limit to the running lines they can use them on.

 

[the101]

I agree about Midlands - just looked at my list of vehicles - there are enough DDA compliant singles in Newcastle to clear out AG, with extra, which should mean the vehicles from Hereford and other vehicles from Leicester and Worcester should cascade elsewhere - maybe Yorkshire. Certainly seems very complicated, if not overcomplicated as well. Maybe we'll get some cascades in Bristol & Bath as well? Who knows.

Not quite. Adderley Green is taking on a sizeable chunk of Newcastle depot's work and allocation when the latter shuts. In May Potteries had over 50 non-DDA single-deckers; about 20 buses will come off of the PVR in a month's time. The former number is lower now, as a couple of services have been withdrawn since plus the first of either four or five 13-plate StreetLites have appeared, but not significantly so. That means that stock is required from elsewhere, and informed rumour suggests that 18 Enviro300 integrals will arrive from the Wyvern business (at least) as a result of various new vehicles plus transfers out of Hereford when it shuts.

It is also interesting to note that the W-registered B7TLs at Potteries are apparently to be replaced too, suggesting that some of First's non-DDA compliant low-floor 'deckers will be disposed of before the end of 2016. These five are the only non-DDA 'deckers in the Midlands business, and with 13 or 14 StreetDecks (whatever the number was) expected, it will have more DDA-compliant 'deckers than are required.

 

[Surreyman]

Whoa there !

I'm not aware of very many First Group W or X-reg saloons that have been made DDA complaint, just some B10BLEs. As far as I'm aware, virtually all remaining S, T & V reg saloons will be off to the scrap yard.
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Pleased to hear but any idea how many B10BLEs? (Or Scanias for that matter),
This is a numbers game!

 

[Goldfish62]

Obviously, the Devon Tridents include some long lived examples plus some newer examples (2004/5) to bring the age profile down (and meet DDA, of course). Any news on the age of the B7TLs though?

That said, with the various e400s and newer Tridents, most of the remaining deckers will probably be on schools/college workings so older examples will probably suffice?

Amy school routes that are registered are within scope of DDA whether they are in practice open to the public or not.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Amy school routes that are registered are within scope of DDA whether they are in practice open to the public or not.

Indeed, but if a load of X/Y reg compliant deckers are sent down, they may not exactly be modern but they'll do the job on those schools/college workings that are registered.

Of course, if they're not registered, then non-DDA can survive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is also interesting to note that the W-registered B7TLs at Potteries are apparently to be replaced too, suggesting that some of First's non-DDA compliant low-floor 'deckers will be disposed of before the end of 2016. These five are the only non-DDA 'deckers in the Midlands business, and with 13 or 14 StreetDecks (whatever the number was) expected, it will have more DDA-compliant 'deckers than are required.

Is it 9 Streetdecks for Midlands with 5 for Leicester and 4 for Worcester or am I mis-recalling?

Some of the older low floor non-DDA deckers are now coming up to 16/17 years old and the worst examples of those will also need replacing in the next year or two so not surprised that they'll go soon as well
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good post, Surreyman - (and everyone above) - thanks !

Don't forget to add-in late changes to plans to satisfy the accountants, and possibly irate managers, and temporary allocations pending the delivery of the 2016 order.

Plus (I think) 160 brand new buses (don't know when) for the Somerset Hinckley Point power station project.
I have never before known of so many variables in the mix - I too like to conjecture and guess what vehicles will go where, and will be on my local patch, but I've given-up this time !

Whoa there too!! Please don't think I'm being mean (you'd know if I were ) but there's a few things to cover off.

I never buy this "accountants" stuff. The MDs are very financially aware and they know what they have to do. The companies are there to make money - that's the aim. The MDs, and rest of the management team, should be commercially aware and understand what to do. The accountants provide the information and advise (plus say what can and cannot be done legally).

As for the 160 buses for Somerset, information is understandably sketchy as a) it's just been announced, b) a deal hasn't been signed - they have preferred bidder status, c) it's a JV and the vehicles will be assigned to that and d) they may merely be leased across the term and e) it's commercially sensitive - enthusiasts don't have to know that sort of stuff (interesting as it is)

As a 50/50 JV, where would CMS find homes for 80 vehicles....hence, you can understand that issues such as lease vs. purchase etc are certainly of prominence.

 

[DD12]

Whoa there too!! Please don't think I'm being mean (you'd know if I were ) but there's a few things to cover off.

I never buy this "accountants" stuff. The MDs are very financially aware and they know what they have to do. The companies are there to make money - that's the aim. The MDs, and rest of the management team, should be commercially aware and understand what to do. The accountants provide the information and advise (plus say what can and cannot be done legally).

As for the 160 buses for Somerset, information is understandably sketchy as a) it's just been announced, b) a deal hasn't been signed - they have preferred bidder status, c) it's a JV and the vehicles will be assigned to that and d) they may merely be leased across the term and e) it's commercially sensitive - enthusiasts don't have to know that sort of stuff (interesting as it is)

As a 50/50 JV, where would CMS find homes for 80 vehicles....hence, you can understand that issues such as lease vs. purchase etc are certainly of prominence.

Thanks again for good information, focus, reasoning, and for putting stuff into the right context.
(By the time I adequately understand the workings of the commercial bus companies, they might all be running franchised networks with many different structures ! )
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it 9 Streetdecks for Midlands with 5 for Leicester and 4 for Worcester or am I mis-recalling?

The nearest thing to "official information" I've got is the BBP 2015 First Handbook, which shows 9 StreetDecks due for Leicester, but none for Worcester.
Since it's publication, there has been a "strong rumour" on midlandred.net that Worcester is going to get 4 of those.
"Seeing will be believing" - I've waited 47 years for new deckers here at Worcester -
the last NEW DDs allocated to the WR garage of Midland Red/Midland Red West/First, were Alexander bodied Daimler Fleetlines LHA592-596F in November 1967.

I will be grateful for any early alerts of impending delivery OR any definite news that we are NOT going to get any !

THANKS all.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks again for good information, focus, reasoning, and for putting stuff into the right context.
(By the time I adequately understand the workings of the commercial bus companies, they might all be running franchised networks with many different structures ! )
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The nearest thing to "official information" I've got is the BBP 2015 First Handbook, which shows 9 StreetDecks due for Leicester, but none for Worcester.
Since it's publication, there has been a "strong rumour" on midlandred.net that Worcester is going to get 4 of those.
"Seeing will be believing" - I've waited 47 years for new deckers here at Worcester -
the last NEW DDs allocated to the WR garage of Midland Red/Midland Red West/First, were Alexander bodied Daimler Fleetlines LHA592-596F in November 1967.

I will be grateful for any early alerts of impending delivery OR any definite news that we are NOT going to get any !

THANKS all.

The 9 to Midlands is relatively kosher. However, the split (if any) is subject to myth and legend....

 

[KendalKing]

I will be grateful for any early alerts of impending delivery OR any definite news that we are NOT going to get any !

You could try the various First Group Enthusiast Groups on Facebook, as most list vehicles seen on delivery.

 

[AB93]

Does anyone know what vehicles are going to be moving out of the depots closing down/being sold (i.e. Hereford, Plymouth, Bracknell & Newcastle)?

Do we know what the DDA vehicles are and where they're going?

In Bracknell, I'm assuming that the citaros and E200s will transfer across to Slough and then most of the deckers will head to Hampshire for service?

I also notice that some of the Bracknell fleet has already moved out to Hampshire (53065 and 68522).

The Citaros at Bracknell are only there because they've been displaced from Slough by new buses, so I would expect the majority of them to go to depots outside of Berkshire (even if a couple end up back at Slough).

Enviro200s are very likely to move to Slough though.

Re school bus 68522, Berkshire's yellow schoolbus operation isn't affected by the closure of Bracknell depot, so that is probably unrelated.

 

[overthewater]

Citaros are crap and need pushed into the Thames river. Most of the First Edinburgh ones are off the road most of the time, mind you the passengers on the 800/801 are used to be boarding via the middle door with prams.

 

[Lrd]

It will be very interesting to see across the south and south west how they manage this. In Hampshire the numbers don't add up so cascades have to be coming from somewhere. Does anyone know if 66156/7 and the 2 step darts are still ticking along in Southampton?

66157s rear suspension collapsed the other week, believe she's still in the garage. 66156 has been out on the road a fair bit, didn't see her today though. The 2 step Darts are still going strong, both used on Aviva P&R duties so don't see mainline use, unless things have really gone wrong.

 

[Robertj21a]

The 9 to Midlands is relatively kosher. However, the split (if any) is subject to myth and legend....

The 9 Streetdecks were ordered for Leicester but, in practice, 4 will be allocated to Worcester, in exchange for 4 of their Streetlites.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Citaros are crap and need pushed into the Thames river. Most of the First Edinburgh ones are off the road most of the time, mind you the passengers on the 800/801 are used to be boarding via the middle door with prams.

I'm sorry but I've got to disagree with you.

FSE's may be crap but don't tar them all. Those are ex London ones with a whole raft of issues, not least that they've been hammered into ground. I don't doubt that they're duffers.

However, having been on Citaros on urban work (BlueStar in Soton) and interurban work (Go North East on their Diamond routes), I can vouch as a passenger that they are excellent workhorses. The internal layout (given it's a multi door citybus design) is a little compromised. However, they are well built and go well.

They're just a bit expensive in capital terms and for parts if anything should go wrong, but they are good machines.

 

[Robertj21a]

Aren't Citaros also the most numerous bus model type in at least Europe ?

 

[ooo]

Aren't Citaros also the most numerous bus model type in at least Europe ?

Seeing as they are everywhere on the continent I think you may be correct. I seem to remember reading something that stated this.

 

[Strathclyder]

Citaros are crap and need pushed into the Thames river. Most of the First Edinburgh ones are off the road most of the time, mind you the passengers on the 800/801 are used to be boarding via the middle door with prams.

I also have to respectfully disagree with you on that.

The FSE examples may be crap (can't speak from personal experience, but I haven't heard good things about them), but they can be fantastic buses when they're properly maintained and looked after.
As an example, the newest McGill's examples look good, are supremely quiet, comfortable and perfectly suited for the routes they work. I'd rather have a Citaro than a E300, to be honest.

Granted, they may be a bit more expensive to buy and maintain than the equivalent Enviro, but they're excellent machines regardless.