First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

This would give Arriva Preston bus, Would there want Preston?

It would add on to Arriva NW quite nicely

 

[MCW]

..and could Leicester and Northampton be on their radar though?.:roll:

this is what I'm fearing, not as a bus enthusiast or anything just as a local person, if rotala come in no one knows who they hell they are!! ask most Leicester folk they just say 'I know the green ones, white ones and orange ones' and that's about it

Is rotala a reputable company? cause I don't get that feeling from them for some reason....

I would much rather have wellglade, Stagey or Go ahead in leicester...

 

[Ivo]

I would scream in agony if Rotala were bought out by Arriva. Both my home town and my home city would then have Arriva subsidiaries running there. Having XC start an ORCATS raid on Bath Spa station at 0609 is bad enough thank you - especially considering it didn't exist when I first came to Bath!

There's nothing overtly wrong with Rotala to my mind. It's just that Wessex really couldn't care about Bath and are only here because they see the larger of the two Universities in the city as a cash cow. You need only look at their one remaining non-University route (that isn't subsidised), the 5, to see evidence of this - outside of University times, it runs at half the daytime frequency (30 minute intervals as opposed to 15), and even then the route is merely a duplicate of a route First already run to a better frequency.

 

[markie73]

this is what I'm fearing, not as a bus enthusiast or anything just as a local person, if rotala come in no one knows who they hell they are!! ask most Leicester folk they just say 'I know the green ones, white ones and orange ones' and that's about it

Is rotala a reputable company? cause I don't get that feeling from them for some reason....

I would much rather have wellglade, Stagey or Go ahead in leicester...

With yesterdays announcement on their recent funding I get the feeling that they are lining up a deal, possibly for First's Leicester operation and maybe Northampton as well? given that the two operations have worked closely together in the past this would not suprise me.

 

[robertclark125]

Of course, if someone were to buy Rotala, then surely that £11 million in funding is still there, and the new owners would have access to it, someone else having already done the negotiating.

 

[winston270twm]

Is rotala a reputable company? cause I don't get that feeling from them for some reason....

Rotala are a decent company, however as I've already, the Diamond bus business they bought from Go-Ahead Group has shrunk considerably in terms of the number of commercial services now operated, they seem to have lost their fight since NXWM have upped their game, responded with special return tickets on competing services etc, they also lost a load of Centro Tenders to Arriva’s new WM depot in West Bromwich and more recently the NEC car park shuttles

One thing of note is that the WM operation seems to be bottom of the list for new vehicle investment favouring Wessex & Preston, yet the WM operation is bigger than both. As Rotala have grown through acquisition over the years, the turnover has grown substantially but profit margins are still poor:

Full year to 30th Nov 2011:

Turnover = £56.1 Million
Pre tax profit = £1.88 Million
Profit margin = 3.35% (which is way below industry average)

Unaudited Interim Results for the six months to 31 May 2012

Highlights

-- Growth in Turnover of 7 per cent. to GBP28.5 million (2011: GBP26.6 million)
-- Interest expense down 18% to GBP0.65 million (2011: GBP0.8 million)
-- Profit before tax up 4% to GBP0.96 million (2011: GBP0.92 million)
-- Net Debt down 20% to GBP16.1 million (2011: GBP20.1 million)
-- Net Debt to EBITDA ratio: 2.2, down 18% period on period
-- Interim dividend up by 25% to 0.50 pence per share (2011: 0.40 pence)

Profit margin = 3.37% (little improvement in profit margin (0.02%) based on a 7% increase in turnover)

Also of note, Rotala Plc currently carries more debt (£16.1 Million) than the entire group is worth based on the current stock market capitalisations of £15.5 Million

I suspect this is why Rotala Plc has to either issue a boat load of new shares through a placing or raise funds though a new banking facility for expansion & sometimes for fleet renewal in the past.

Rotala would only be a contender for something the big boys weren't interested in, if you’re talking a profitable Leicester operations I'd have thought you'd be looking at one of Go-Ahead / NX or Stagecoach, if not those then possibly Wellglade

 

[F Great Eastern]

News from First in Ireland
Aircoach have announced as of today they will close one of their seven routes. This will free up a further four vehicles that operate on the route 24 hours a day. The hourly Ballinteer to Dublin Airport route will cease from 24th December 2012 as it is not presently commercially viable. It started approx 18 months ago and whilst good reception initially, just hasn't picked up the numbers consistently. At the start of the route it was every half hour in peak times, later being cut back to 1 an hour 24 hours.

One of the likely causes is a decision by Dublin Bus last year to change their own 16 group of routes to mirror some of the route. Previously there was a 16 that bypassed the airport and served a few of the same areas as Aircoach and a 16a that served the airport but did not much common ground. Last year the routes were changed, the 16a abolished and the 16 started to serve the airport. The 16 was also a little slower, but much cheaper, as it was ran using taxpayer funded vehicles and on a PSO route.

It's likely that this hit Aircoach, with passengers preferring to take a longer journey than pay over double the fare. Dublin Bus also rolled out Wifi as a test on the 16 route before any other route, presumably to compete with Aircoach who offered same.

Inital Route Launch:
http://www.firstgroup.com/latest_news/?id=007171

Suspension Notice:
http://www.aircoach.ie/news.article.php?ID=251

 

[Polarbear]

Does anyone happen to know what date First Chester & Wirral is due to transfer to Stagecoach? I've heard 6 January being mentioned?

Other than a press release by First on the Chester & Wirral website, there doesn't appear to have been any mention of the takeover & nothing mentioned on the Merseyside & South Lancs part of the Stagecoach website either.

 

[KendalKing]

Does anyone happen to know what date First Chester & Wirral is due to transfer to Stagecoach? I've heard 6 January being mentioned?

Other than a press release by First on the Chester & Wirral website, there doesn't appear to have been any mention of the takeover & nothing mentioned on the Merseyside & South Lancs part of the Stagecoach website either.

I too have also heard 6th January.

 

[robertclark125]

The profit margins at Rotala seem to be poor, but the fares in Preston are seemingly extortionate, with someone claiming in the LEP that fares on Preston Bus have gone up four times in a year. But that's digressing

The issue with Rotala here and some claims with a takeover by either Arriva or Go Ahead, well, that brings me back to a point I made earlier in this thread - a spanner in the works when it comes to sales. The poster above mentioned that Rotala may be interested in stuff the big boys aren't interested in. But, if Rotala are doing a deal with First, and suddenly Go-Ahead comes in and offers to buy Rotala, does so, and then either changes the offer to First, or pulls out, then it changes things.

I mention Rotala as we're talking about them, but of course, you could substitute Rotala for ANY firm.

And when we're on the topic of potential purchasers, I'll say again, EYMS group, or, how about this one, Mcgills?

 

[MCW]

I hear you on Rotala.

the problem is, I'm also worried as a local that a new operator might come in and start hacking away routes, which is not really needed... if anything new services need bringing in and some routes need extending.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

If Rotala buy Northampton odds on it being called Claret Diamond (as in the football team) or Leicester as Fox Diamond as in Fox County?

 

[MCW]

If Rotala buy Northampton odds on it being called Claret Diamond (as in the football team) or Leicester as Fox Diamond as in Fox County?

fox diamond sounds horrid....

be nice if it was Called Diamond Fox County

 

[MK Tom]

If Rotala buy Northampton they should call it ''expect to start seeing flying pigs any time now''...

 

[winston270twm]

The profit margins at Rotala seem to be poor, but the fares in Preston are seemingly extortionate, with someone claiming in the LEP that fares on Preston Bus have gone up four times in a year. But that's digressing

The issue with Rotala here and some claims with a takeover by either Arriva or Go Ahead, well, that brings me back to a point I made earlier in this thread - a spanner in the works when it comes to sales. The poster above mentioned that Rotala may be interested in stuff the big boys aren't interested in. But, if Rotala are doing a deal with First, and suddenly Go-Ahead comes in and offers to buy Rotala, does so, and then either changes the offer to First, or pulls out, then it changes things.

I mention Rotala as we're talking about them, but of course, you could substitute Rotala for ANY firm.

And when we're on the topic of potential purchasers, I'll say again, EYMS group, or, how about this one, Mcgills?

Its since been reported that Flights Hallmark (Rotala) have now also lost another 13 x coaches worth of NX work to Mike De Courcey (NX routes 210 & 777), it was awarded to Rotala in 2011 & they currently have a fleet of 14 x 11 reg Levante, I believe there have been a number of operational issues reported to date.

I very much doubt Go-Ahead would be interested in Rotala Plc as approx 50% of the business is based in the West Midlands which Go-Ahead sold to Rotala at a considerable loss. As for EYMS, they are only probably as big as Rotala Plc in terms of fleet size, so doubt they could pull off a takeover. If Anyone was interested in Rotala, for me it would be Arriva for it's WM bus business & Preston would bolt on to Arriva NW quite nicely

 

[Statto]

I too have also heard 6th January.

I heard on another forum it was meant to be this weekend, then put back until the New Year.

 

[MCW]

If Rotala buy Northampton they should call it ''expect to start seeing flying pigs any time now''...

LOL!!!

 

[185]

I too have also heard 6th January.

There's talk of a Wirral & Chester handover taking place this Monday 17 December, with Hyde Road Stagecoach vehicles being moved over to increase reliability.

...however that date contradicts with publicity issued by FirstGroup which generally suggests they are here over Christmas.

But either way floating FirstGroup down the Mersey and out to treacherous seas is one of the best Christmas presents Wirral has ever got.

 

[Polarbear]

There's talk of a Wirral & Chester handover taking place this Monday 17 December, with Hyde Road Stagecoach vehicles being moved over to increase reliability.

...however that date contradicts with publicity issued by FirstGroup which generally suggests they are here over Christmas.

But either way floating FirstGroup down the Mersey and out to treacherous seas is one of the best Christmas presents Wirral has ever got.

Patching together a few sources, I understand that Stagecoach vehicles will start appearing very soon, but "On hire to First" until the official take over date (6 January). I've also heard 15 new Enviro 300's are being diverted from an existing order, which should help the age profile of the fleet somewhat! Some "04" plate Darts are also supposed to be coming here as well.

Given the wrecks we've had here for the last few years, pretty much anything will be a distinct improvement.

 

[markie73]

If Rotala buy Northampton they should call it ''expect to start seeing flying pigs any time now''...

On the subject of 'pigs' doesn't Rotala have a big fleet of Optares that could end up in Northampton if they do decide to take the plunge and salvage the delapited operation?

 

[winston270twm]

On the subject of 'pigs' doesn't Rotala have a big fleet of Optares that could end up in Northampton if they do decide to take the plunge and salvage the delapited operation?

What makes you think Rotala could salvage the Northampton operation?

They can't even make a decent operating profit of the operations that they already have

 

[MCW]

don't know where the hell my mate gets this info from....

again apologies for incorrect fleetnumbers of some vehicles as I have told my mate but I don't think he got my message....

------------

‎~First in Leicester Fleet News~

•66849 is now in service as of 13/12.

•32053/4/5/6 are due to move to Northampton in the new year

•66842/3/4/6/7/8 are due into Leicester in the new year.

•66315 is off the road at the moment following a slight bump on Thursday morning with Arriva's 2955!

•32628/31 from Leicester (also 32629/30 from Northampton) are believed to be moving to potteries soon. ^s

 

[MK Tom]

•32053/4/5/6 are due to move to Northampton in the new year

•32628/31 from Leicester (also 32629/30 from Northampton) are believed to be moving to potteries soon. ^s

If this is reliable (?) then sounds like they're looking to replace the Citybuses too. Which would be a shame seeing as they're the last remnant of what Northampton Transport was before First desecrated it.

 

[markie73]

If this is reliable (?) then sounds like they're looking to replace the Citybuses too. Which would be a shame seeing as they're the last remnant of what Northampton Transport was before First desecrated it.

Looks like there is more junk heading to Northampton to keep the Scanias company then?, what happened to 32065?, I have not seen it around town for a while has it headed back to Leicester?

 

[MCW]

Looks like there is more junk heading to Northampton to keep the Scanias company then?, what happened to 32065?, I have not seen it around town for a while has it headed back to Leicester?

065 was in leicester the other day saw it on the 88. pretty sure of it.

also the citybuses..... I hope 122 gets preserved as it is the unique rebodied vehicle..... and its pretty one of a kind, I hope first have their heart and let this one into preservation

 

[Qwerty133]

065 was in leicester the other day saw it on the 88. pretty sure of it.

also the citybuses..... I hope 122 gets preserved as it is the unique rebodied vehicle..... and its pretty one of a kind, I hope first have their heart and let this one into preservation

First and heart not to words that go together really why didn't everyone refuse to buy of them to try to push them out of business

 

[A0]

If this is reliable (?) then sounds like they're looking to replace the Citybuses too. Which would be a shame seeing as they're the last remnant of what Northampton Transport was before First desecrated it.

I do sometimes feel operators are damned if they do and damned if they don't on these boards.

Any vehicles which First inherited from Northampton Corporation will easily be the oldest on the fleet (despite First's better efforts at the moment), so surely replacing them with something newer should be welcomed?

I'm no fan of First or how they operate in Northampton, but given you've complained regularly about the age of First's vehicles, to criticise them for replacing some of the very oldest vehicles with something newer (albeit with some decidedly second hand vehicles no doubt) just for some emotive reason, does seem a bit silly.

 

[MCW]

I do sometimes feel operators are damned if they do and damned if they don't on these boards.

Any vehicles which First inherited from Northampton Corporation will easily be the oldest on the fleet (despite First's better efforts at the moment), so surely replacing them with something newer should be welcomed?

I'm no fan of First or how they operate in Northampton, but given you've complained regularly about the age of First's vehicles, to criticise them for replacing some of the very oldest vehicles with something newer (albeit with some decidedly second hand vehicles no doubt) just for some emotive reason, does seem a bit silly.

I wouldn't say it is silly at all.

In terms of providing an accessible public service then yes I totally agree and still agree that they should be replaced with something new(er), but also with my hat on as a Bus enthusiast, it would be sad to see them scrapped.

we can all have more than one hat to think with

 

[DaveHarries]

[....] I've also heard 15 new Enviro 300's are being diverted from an existing order[....]

Not sure if they are Enviro300: I had heard that some Enviro200 were being diverted from an order due to Stagecoach South Wales @ Porth for Services 120 & 130 there. Not sure if there are 15 buses being diverted though.

Dave

 

[A0]

I wouldn't say it is silly at all.

In terms of providing an accessible public service then yes I totally agree and still agree that they should be replaced with something new(er), but also with my hat on as a Bus enthusiast, it would be sad to see them scrapped.

we can all have more than one hat to think with

Which nicely proves my point that the operators really can't do anything right in the eyes of some posters on these boards.

If they use old vehicles - that's wrong because they should be providing nice, new shiny vehicles.

But if they dare to replace some of the oldest vehicles on their fleet - that's wrong because they're nice, old vehicles which hark back to a bygone time.

I happen to think if you post on here criticising an operator for running old vehicles and a poor service, you can't really then, a few posts down, criticise them for withdrawing their oldest vehicles.......