First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

Leicester now has one of the highest profit margins in UK bus. Its fleet is not in need of replacing imminently. First Aberdeen has about 60% of its fleet of the age of Leicester's oldest buses and they are getting replaced over the next 4 years. If it does get sold it will be interesting to see how First explain it.

Leicester may have one of the highest profit margins in UK bus, however, as its only a small standalone operation i.e. equivalent to only one garage of First London, West/South Yorkshire, Manchester, Glasgow etc, in terms of the profit it contributes to group in £Millions it will still be a relatively small amount (I would guess £2.5-3 million max), with limited opportunities to squeeze any significant extra out of the operation. For Leicester to contribute an additional £1 million pound profit to group, its margin may need to increase by 8-10%, where as one of the big former PTE operations the margin would only to grow by 0.5-1%. First would achieve the highest profit growth by focusing on margins at the big operations.

As I've said before Leicester would attract a high sale price / plenty of interest with high profit margins, First would go a long way towards achieving the £100 million in disposals yet only be sacrificing a profitable operation the size of Wigan in the process. First needs to accept that they can't sell off all the loss making / low margin operations, as they will not have a hope in hell of raising the £100 million in disposal proceeds, based of sale prices agreed to date

 

[Volvodart]

Well we'll see what happens by the end of March.

 

[overthewater]

edited:

Well we'll see what happens by the end of March.

Why march? I know that is the end of the Financial year but First admitted there having trouble selling it off this we will end up having another 12 months of this,

 

[tbtc]

Here are the details, hopeful something will come about with this:

Option one, EVERYTHING is the same.

Option two a number of changes are brought in:

Route: No32;

* Service revised to operate every 75 mins, via the current route, With ALL evening buses to operate via Glen Bruar Place. There is also an idea where its only operate in the evenings this route,

* Service is replace by this new route: Cardenden - Auchterderran - Kinglassie - Glenrothes - Markinch, Star of Markinch

School bus 232 is NOT interlinked with this contract.
School Bus ??? Glenwood HS - Kinglassie, IS NOT INTERLINKED with this contract
School Bus ???? Lochgelly/Cardenden - St Andrews HS IS NOT INTERLINKED with this contract

==============
School buses.

There is ALOT of routes which need 85 seats, There isnt any low floor deckers which has this many seats so how on earth is this going to work?

=======
New Service running every 60 - 120 mins: Glenrothes - Markinch - Star of Markinch - Coaltown of Burnturk -Kettlebridge- Pitlessie- Cuparmuir - Cupar Timing Guide , which would replace 67.

======
No13 Overhauled:

see it cut back to operate: West Wemyss - Kirkcaldy only, with the rest of the route pulled. but a new short hopper service: Methilhaven Road – Bird Scheme – Muiredge introduced to provide concretion.

=================
Changes to the Evening/Sunday:

37/40 reserved to operate once an hour one way with the spare 30mins now covering for Tanshall and whitehill ind estate, to replace part of the old 43a and 44a which would be replaced by Leven Bus Station, Letham Ave, Robertson Rd, Casan, Kennoway, Windygates, Milton of Balgonie. Markinch, Coaltown of Balgonie, Glenrothes

Which seems rather stupid to me.

========================

What could be rather strange, is if M&W wins the no32, or the school work that operates around 32 route, it could be stagecoach having to either operate new service?

Did you mean this for the Stagecoach East Scotland thread?

 

[overthewater]

Did you mean this for the Stagecoach East Scotland thread?

YES! can you deleted that Quote post and I will place it into the correct thread, I was wondering why is no one replying!

 

[MCW]

I really can't see how anyone can make out Leicester is a high profit margin, they just put the blinkin fares up again and they have been enacted pretty much as I'm typing this post.

we shall see.... personally I think they are flagging on some routes, In particular the 54's and the 22's

 

[Qwerty133]

Well hopefully someone with the money to have a bus war with arriva will take over the Leicester operation

 

[overthewater]

Firstly I doubt there will any news this about sell off this week, is there any timeline over the next few months, 3 months till the next financial year.

 

[ryson357]

Is it true that Arriva is in Trouble? They decreased service 110 from every 20 mins to every 30 mins?! Except at normal daytime? At peak times! This happened october but i thought why was there less 110's? from 1605 to 1815! Peak times? Then hourly from 1815 - 2215. from Tamworth, but rubbish services there.

Are Arriva looking for a buyer?

 

[winston270twm]

Are Arriva looking for a buyer?

Doubt it, Arriva are owned by Deutsche Bahn the German state rail operator

 

[radamfi]

Peak times are not necessarily more profitable these days. There are extra costs because of higher traffic congestion compared to off-peak, and commuters are not very likely to travel by bus except in the major urban areas.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Doubt it, Arriva are owned by Deutsche Bahn the German state rail operator

I presume he was talking about the Leicester operation on its own.

 

[ryson357]

I presume he was talking about the Leicester operation on its own.

Yeah is Arriva Leicester looking for a buyer?

 

[Qwerty133]

Yeah is Arriva Leicester looking for a buyer?

No was on about someone taking over first starting a buswar with arriva.

 

[MCW]

Yeah is Arriva Leicester looking for a buyer?

I hardly doubt that, they are investing loads of money into Leicester Operations.

 

[Qwerty133]

I hardly doubt that, they are investing loads of money into Leicester Operations.

Where is this money being spent
They are doing a half hearted refurbishment of the low landers which makes them if anything look worse than before. But that's about all of the investment I can see in the fleet except of a load of ex London veichles coming in.

 

[MCW]

Where is this money being spent
They are doing a half hearted refurbishment of the low landers which makes them if anything look worse than before. But that's about all of the investment I can see in the fleet except of a load of ex London veichles coming in.

In your opinion.

the lowlanders are all being refurbished and other vehicle refurbishments are planned but I have a duty not to divulge information on that as of yet.

There are basically several changes in place ready to be launched this year, I myself don't know what a lot of these are and again, for the ones I do know, I have my duty to keep quiet, Lets put it this way, I think the change of management etc over the last year has really helped Arriva achieve or set out to achieve what they have wanted to do for a while.

The Lowlander refurbishments I can tell you about though. The lowlanders are being refurbished as part of the plan to use them on the improved A426 corridor as and when the works have been enacted and completed (even though that could be a good 18 months off yet). they have also refurbished the vehicles because the oldest of the lowlanders is actually 12 years old, thus technically, they really should be replaced, however they are good sturdy reliable vehicles and the cost of refurbishing the vehicles is cheaper than replacing them, at the same time it is also expanding their life span by about another 10 years.

The euro 6 standard will be coming in at somepoint in the nearby future and this has had a bearing on refurbishments. Euro 6 has been very expensive to develop and this has somewhat put the prices of new vehicles a lot higher. There is also a fuel consumption issue with Euro 6 as well, as much as the emissions are lowered significantly, they have put smaller size 4 cylinder engines in new buses, as where the lowlanders have 6 cylinders and fuel consumption is somewhere around the 9/10 MPG mark on the average run (as far as I am aware).

The lowlanders look refreshed inside and out and they are just as good appearance wise as a new vehicle.

I wouldn't diss arriva until 2013 is out, and only then if nothing has really changed, but I can foresee 2013 being a good year for them here in leicester.

 

[Qwerty133]

In your opinion.

the lowlanders are all being refurbished and other vehicle refurbishments are planned but I have a duty not to divulge information on that as of yet.

There are basically several changes in place ready to be launched this year, I myself don't know what a lot of these are and again, for the ones I do know, I have my duty to keep quiet, Lets put it this way, I think the change of management etc over the last year has really helped Arriva achieve or set out to achieve what they have wanted to do for a while.

The Lowlander refurbishments I can tell you about though. The lowlanders are being refurbished as part of the plan to use them on the improved A426 corridor as and when the works have been enacted and completed (even though that could be a good 18 months off yet). they have also refurbished the vehicles because the oldest of the lowlanders is actually 12 years old, thus technically, they really should be replaced, however they are good sturdy reliable vehicles and the cost of refurbishing the vehicles is cheaper than replacing them, at the same time it is also expanding their life span by about another 10 years.

The euro 6 standard will be coming in at somepoint in the nearby future and this has had a bearing on refurbishments. Euro 6 has been very expensive to develop and this has somewhat put the prices of new vehicles a lot higher. There is also a fuel consumption issue with Euro 6 as well, as much as the emissions are lowered significantly, they have put smaller size 4 cylinder engines in new buses, as where the lowlanders have 6 cylinders and fuel consumption is somewhere around the 9/10 MPG mark on the average run (as far as I am aware).

The lowlanders look refreshed inside and out and they are just as good appearance wise as a new vehicle.

I wouldn't diss arriva until 2013 is out, and only then if nothing has really changed, but I can foresee 2013 being a good year for them here in leicester.

As you have said you are aware of additional plans to the average passenger who can only judge them on what they are aware of and if you think the lowlanders look as good as new busses you mustn't have travelled on one as on a lot of them the seat backs are different shades of turquoise throughout and are faded in the middle where graffiti had been removed and you say that they are being refurbished for use on the a426 so at least they will be a thing of the past on the 50 before long. Also on the ex London wright deckers it feels as though the front kerbside wheel keeps collapsing along narborough road which only happens on these busses. And while they keep the best busses on the 31 which is a short route I feel that everything I have said is justified. Also half of the arriva drivers on the 50 can't speak fluent English and don't understand why passengers don't find it acceptable when the first bus on a sunday which comes out of service from the depot is 10 minutes late. And I can honestly say that 225 on the heritage running day sounded healthier than any arriva bus that I have been on in the last 12 months.

 

[overthewater]

Maybe Arriva knows something we dont, thus there spending this money on the making improvements.

 

[MCW]

As you have said you are aware of additional plans to the average passenger who can only judge them on what they are aware of and if you think the lowlanders look as good as new busses you mustn't have travelled on one as on a lot of them the seat backs are different shades of turquoise throughout and are faded in the middle where graffiti had been removed and you say that they are being refurbished for use on the a426 so at least they will be a thing of the past on the 50 before long. Also on the ex London wright deckers it feels as though the front kerbside wheel keeps collapsing along narborough road which only happens on these busses. And while they keep the best busses on the 31 which is a short route I feel that everything I have said is justified. Also half of the arriva drivers on the 50 can't speak fluent English and don't understand why passengers don't find it acceptable when the first bus on a sunday which comes out of service from the depot is 10 minutes late. And I can honestly say that 225 on the heritage running day sounded healthier than any arriva bus that I have been on in the last 12 months.

each to their own......
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe Arriva knows something we dont, thus there spending this money on the making improvements.

perhaps....

then again remember, I have said that there has been a management shift around in Leicester so Arriva have finally got rid of the Cut back happy managers.

 

[BuhSnarf]

As you have said you are aware of additional plans to the average passenger who can only judge them on what they are aware of and if you think the lowlanders look as good as new busses you mustn't have travelled on one as on a lot of them the seat backs are different shades of turquoise throughout and are faded in the middle where graffiti had been removed and you say that they are being refurbished for use on the a426 so at least they will be a thing of the past on the 50 before long.

As an ex-daily user of the 50 it's always been a route that has had a poor service and been neglected. It's only just got lowlanders and the eclipses on that route as opposed to dirty unreliable Olympians.

I complained a few times to head office after buses used to just miss out whole parts of the route to make up time, buses not arriving at all or 40 minutes late and really poor driver service when asking them questions and it did seem to get better.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sandy Drew]

For anyone who subscribes to New Transit and has an interest in Firstgroup, this recent article may be of interest to you...

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/new_transit/news/?ID=33229

 

[overthewater]

For anyone who subscribes to New Transit and has an interest in Firstgroup, this recent article may be of interest to you...

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/new_transit/news/?ID=33229

I wonder what the rest of it says?

 

[winston270twm]

For anyone who subscribes to New Transit and has an interest in Firstgroup, this recent article may be of interest to you...

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/new_transit/news/?ID=33229

Is anyone able to post the full article?

 

[bb21]

As an ex-daily user of the 50 it's always been a route that has had a poor service and been neglected. It's only just got lowlanders and the eclipses on that route as opposed to dirty unreliable Olympians.

Unfortunately it is not a route high on the priority list when Southgates were open. 125/6/7, 29/30/31 and 52/53 all seemed to be higher up in the pecking order at the time, but then even 29/31 had to contend with Olympians at the time due to a lack of newer buses. It still isn't. The fact that Lowlanders are now being used on the 50 is more to do with the fact that South Wigston is full of them rather than anything else.

I complained a few times to head office after buses used to just miss out whole parts of the route to make up time, buses not arriving at all or 40 minutes late and really poor driver service when asking them questions and it did seem to get better.

Some of these are not acceptable, however my experience is that Narborough Road is a nightmare at busier times of the day, especially during the evening peak. Delays of an hour is not uncommon and Arriva's hands are tied to a certain extent on that one.

I, too, have heard rumours regarding the new management so am quietly optimistic and looking forward to seeing what changes they make.

 

[BuhSnarf]

The lowlanders are being refurbished as part of the plan to use them on the improved A426 corridor

What exactly is improving on the a426? Its already quite well serves by the 84/85?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[overthewater]

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/chester-wirral.aspx

Stagecoach to take over the First Bus operations in Chester, Wirral and Wrexham

As customers may be aware, Stagecoach have agreed to purchase the First Bus operations in the Chester, Ellesmere Port, Wirral and Wrexham areas. We expect to take over the operations on 13th January 2013.

Please bookmark this page, as it will be updated regularly with information on how the transition will affect our customers.



Services

All bus services currently provided by First will continue to be provided by Stagecoach. There will be no change to the routes or timetables. New timetable leaflets will be printed by Stagecoach to replace the First versions and our colleagues at Cheshire West & Chester Council and Merseytravel will be re-printing their publicity in due course to reflect the ownership change. Our website will also carry the timetables and some maps. Not all new leaflets will be available immediately, but don't worry - as we said before, no times are changing.

Fares

Initially, we will continue to sell and accept the vast majority of the current First ticket range. The prices will also remain the same. This means that all weekly, monthly and annual tickets will continue to be accepted until expiry. We will continue to sell the full First ticket range, with the exception of First Month and First Year. Please note that the online, telephone and Paypoint First sales will cease. We will be announcing our own great value ticket range in due course, but due to the differences in ticket machine systems, this will not take place until further notice. We will advise all customers of our new ticket range in due course.

Buses

From the initial takeover, we will be operating a mixture of buses that will be in Stagecoach colours, either new, or transferred in from elsewhere. We will also be operating a number of the current First vehicles and these will appear in the existing First colours, but with Stagecoach names, until our programme to repaint buses is completed.

Keeping you in the loop...

We appreciate that the change of ownership may cause some concern for customers. As a result, we will do our best to keep everybody in the loop by uploading material to this website, placing posters on buses and producing printed material that will be available on buses and from outlets in the area. Our 'Customer Services' section of the website contains contact details in case you need to ask a question.

We will be uploading a PDF of the first edition of our 'Keeping you in the loop' newsletter very soon and copies will be available on buses after the takeover.


More information will be posted during as things move on, so don't forget to check back regularly.

 

[markie73]

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/chester-wirral.aspx

Stagecoach to take over the First Bus operations in Chester, Wirral and Wrexham

As customers may be aware, Stagecoach have agreed to purchase the First Bus operations in the Chester, Ellesmere Port, Wirral and Wrexham areas. We expect to take over the operations on 13th January 2013.

Please bookmark this page, as it will be updated regularly with information on how the transition will affect our customers.




Services

All bus services currently provided by First will continue to be provided by Stagecoach. There will be no change to the routes or timetables. New timetable leaflets will be printed by Stagecoach to replace the First versions and our colleagues at Cheshire West & Chester Council and Merseytravel will be re-printing their publicity in due course to reflect the ownership change. Our website will also carry the timetables and some maps. Not all new leaflets will be available immediately, but don't worry - as we said before, no times are changing.

Fares

Initially, we will continue to sell and accept the vast majority of the current First ticket range. The prices will also remain the same. This means that all weekly, monthly and annual tickets will continue to be accepted until expiry. We will continue to sell the full First ticket range, with the exception of First Month and First Year. Please note that the online, telephone and Paypoint First sales will cease. We will be announcing our own great value ticket range in due course, but due to the differences in ticket machine systems, this will not take place until further notice. We will advise all customers of our new ticket range in due course.

Buses

From the initial takeover, we will be operating a mixture of buses that will be in Stagecoach colours, either new, or transferred in from elsewhere. We will also be operating a number of the current First vehicles and these will appear in the existing First colours, but with Stagecoach names, until our programme to repaint buses is completed.

Keeping you in the loop...

We appreciate that the change of ownership may cause some concern for customers. As a result, we will do our best to keep everybody in the loop by uploading material to this website, placing posters on buses and producing printed material that will be available on buses and from outlets in the area. Our 'Customer Services' section of the website contains contact details in case you need to ask a question.

We will be uploading a PDF of the first edition of our 'Keeping you in the loop' newsletter very soon and copies will be available on buses after the takeover.


More information will be posted during as things move on, so don't forget to check back regularly.

Well, I wonder if the same thing will happen to Northampton? given the pattern that is emerging with Stagecoach purchasing other First depots....interesting.

 

[Polarbear]

Stagecoach to take over the First Bus operations in Chester, Wirral and Wrexham

The Wrexham bit could be interesting in the future. At present, this is only for schools contracts in the Wrexham area using dedicated yellow buses (Bluebirds?). No stage carriage work is done by First out of the Wrexham outstation - at the moment anyway.

Time will tell no doubt...

To be honest, I'm looking forward to going to work using something a little less old & decrepit that has been the case this week...!!

 

[MCW]

Unfortunately it is not a route high on the priority list when Southgates were open. 125/6/7, 29/30/31 and 52/53 all seemed to be higher up in the pecking order at the time, but then even 29/31 had to contend with Olympians at the time due to a lack of newer buses. It still isn't. The fact that Lowlanders are now being used on the 50 is more to do with the fact that South Wigston is full of them rather than anything else.

Some of these are not acceptable, however my experience is that Narborough Road is a nightmare at busier times of the day, especially during the evening peak. Delays of an hour is not uncommon and Arriva's hands are tied to a certain extent on that one.

The problem is with the 50's and the 104's as well, is the fact that narborough road does get clogged up an awful lot at busier times, I also believe the timetable is too tight and that it requires readjustment on the PVR ratings that it currently implements.

If they were to increase the PVR during peak hours and potentially retimetable things slightly, I think the service would be a lot more reliable. Usually in my books, the Unrefurbished Lowlanders get put on the 50's regularly, However one of the wigston DLA's has been known to do it a fair bit too.

Again, I am obligated to keep so much confidential stuff to myself as I do work with arriva (not for them), however I can explain the allocation issues. Arriva have successfully converted South wigston into an all Deckers garage, bar the 7 or 8 Dart MPD's used for the 86 and 87's. This was to try to standardise the garage to one engine type of double decker (even though newer arrivals ex london are mixed DAF and Volvo's). this means that if a lowlander breaks down a lowlander experienced fitter will be able to attend it. Likewise, the Drivers as a whole, do like the lowlanders, more so the refurbished ones and they do the job in a reliable way.

What exactly is improving on the a426? Its already quite well serves by the 84/85?

Leicester City council and County Council Applied to the Better Bus Funding from central government late 2011/early 2012, it was announced in March/April that they had won £5m to carry out infrastructure improvements to the A426 between Blaby and the City Centre. The proposition includes putting in more bus lanes and putting in Bus Gates to give buses priority over other traffic. I personally am a strong supporter of it, as I believe it will improve the reliability of services down that corridor during peak times which will lead to more people using the Services, that way leaving cars at home and cutting congestion.

Here is the BBC article from the Other day, If you google Search 'A426 bus corridor Improvements' you should get lots come up about it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-20950071

 

[MK Tom]

Stagecoach said the 'First livery until repainting is done' type thing with Wigan too - but they haven't repainted a single ex-First vehicle yet. I get the impression they don't plan to in Chester either.

Markie, SC won't directly buy Northampton, the OFT will never let them.