First Group: General Discussion

[MCW]

Which nicely proves my point that the operators really can't do anything right in the eyes of some posters on these boards.

If they use old vehicles - that's wrong because they should be providing nice, new shiny vehicles.

But if they dare to replace some of the oldest vehicles on their fleet - that's wrong because they're nice, old vehicles which hark back to a bygone time.

I happen to think if you post on here criticising an operator for running old vehicles and a poor service, you can't really then, a few posts down, criticise them for withdrawing their oldest vehicles.......

why are you so bothered about this?

its a forum, its a discussion, I contradicted myself, so what?
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I do sometimes feel operators are damned if they do and damned if they don't on these boards.

Any vehicles which First inherited from Northampton Corporation will easily be the oldest on the fleet (despite First's better efforts at the moment), so surely replacing them with something newer should be welcomed?

I'm no fan of First or how they operate in Northampton, but given you've complained regularly about the age of First's vehicles, to criticise them for replacing some of the very oldest vehicles with something newer (albeit with some decidedly second hand vehicles no doubt) just for some emotive reason, does seem a bit silly.

actually, reading your reply to this as well... you seem to have it in for the bus enthusiasts, actually, we're damned if we say anything :roll:

 

[markie73]

I wouldn't say it is silly at all.

In terms of providing an accessible public service then yes I totally agree and still agree that they should be replaced with something new(er), but also with my hat on as a Bus enthusiast, it would be sad to see them scrapped.

we can all have more than one hat to think with

Why would First bother to replace the fleet at Northampton with new(er) vehicles when there is doubt over the future of the operation?.

Personaly I hope that the Citybuses are retained and that First see sense and preserve 38122 and rightly so it is a unique bus.

 

[Polarbear]

Not sure if they are Enviro300: I had heard that some Enviro200 were being diverted from an order due to Stagecoach South Wales @ Porth for Services 120 & 130 there. Not sure if there are 15 buses being diverted though.

Dave

Could well be Enviro 200's. Nothings appeared so far (including my route 1 bus from Ellesmere Port at 07:09 this morning)

 

[MK Tom]

I do sometimes feel operators are damned if they do and damned if they don't on these boards.

Any vehicles which First inherited from Northampton Corporation will easily be the oldest on the fleet (despite First's better efforts at the moment), so surely replacing them with something newer should be welcomed?

I'm no fan of First or how they operate in Northampton, but given you've complained regularly about the age of First's vehicles, to criticise them for replacing some of the very oldest vehicles with something newer (albeit with some decidedly second hand vehicles no doubt) just for some emotive reason, does seem a bit silly.

Did I criticise them at all? I just said it's a shame. You are putting words in my mouth (and those of other posters) here as has happened before. I can lement the loss of a piece of local history without thinking a company shouldn't replace dilapidated, non DDA-compliant vehicles.
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why are you so bothered about this?

its a forum, its a discussion, I contradicted myself, so what?
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actually, reading your reply to this as well... you seem to have it in for the bus enthusiasts, actually, we're damned if we say anything :roll:

Most sensible enthusiasts simultaneously want new vehicles in public service with a selection of old vehicles retained for history's sake (not necessarily by operators, just not scrapped). Doesn't make us hypocrites does it?

 

[MCW]

Why would First bother to replace the fleet at Northampton with new(er) vehicles when there is doubt over the future of the operation?.

Personaly I hope that the Citybuses are retained and that First see sense and preserve 38122 and rightly so it is a unique bus.

it indicates to me that they are definitely preparing to sell it off.

Yes I hope they preserve 38122 as well its time as a service bus is up, but as a unique vehicle it could find many a new home

 

[Ginga]

Rotala have just agreed a £11m funding deal with RBS.

£1.8m of that has been spent buying the Wessex Connect depot that was leased.

Would a buy of First Leicester be a good idea?

If it was me I would buy Yourbus off Scott Dunn, he has just got back from a 2 day "business trip" in Australia. It would give Rotala another 55 National Express Coaches plus his Bus Operations in Nottingham and Derby.

 

[MCW]

The fact is buying the Leicester operation has scope for development and that could be achieved quite easily. The fleet is already all DDA and fully set up for working day in day out. The only initial investment that really would be needed would perhaps be a new livery and vehicle services.

If Rotala don't buy it then who will???

If someone takes over the first operation then it could well cause some well awaited competition with Arriva.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Don't see why First would sell Leicester. It's profitable, has a fairly modern fleet compared to other operators in the area and has no major competition currently so doesn't really require any big investment?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[tbtc]

Don't see why First would sell Leicester. It's profitable, has a fairly modern fleet compared to other operators in the area and has no major competition currently so doesn't really require any big investment?

Wigan was apparently profitable and was sold.

Bearing in mind that First apparently need to raise a large sum of money, maybe the question should be "why would another operator buy a First subsidiary that wasn't profitable"?

 

[radamfi]

Companies sell profitable businesses all the time. The theory being that they can do something with the sale proceeds that will make them more money, or reduce debt.

 

[Polarbear]

Wigan's profit was around 11% but this is low by First group standards. Similarly, Chester made a profit (albeit only around 0.6%) & was fairly swiftly dispatched.

First are more likely to hold on to their big money-spinners & willing to let those areas go where investment was needed, (such as Chester & Wigan) which would put a large dent in the bottom line for a few years to come.

 

[winston270twm]

The fact is buying the Leicester operation has scope for development and that could be achieved quite easily. The fleet is already all DDA and fully set up for working day in day out. The only initial investment that really would be needed would perhaps be a new livery and vehicle services.

If Rotala don't buy it then who will???

If someone takes over the first operation then it could well cause some well awaited competition with Arriva.

NX would no doubt be interested, it's local to B'ham, a high frequency urban operation like NXWM & NXD and it would also give NX a presence in an Arriva strong hold should Arriva launch competing services over NXWM routes once the Midland takeover has cleared.

Go-Ahead could also be a contender, can't see Rotala or any other smaller group myself & Stagecoach can't buy everything First is selling......
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Rotala have just agreed a £11m funding deal with RBS.

£1.8m of that has been spent buying the Wessex Connect depot that was leased.

If it was me I would buy Yourbus off Scott Dunn, he has just got back from a 2 day "business trip" in Australia. It would give Rotala another 55 National Express Coaches plus his Bus Operations in Nottingham and Derby.

Most already think that Yourbus is already connected to Rotala, Yourbus does seem to be going from strength to strength, not sure how profitable the business is, but it does have a very modern fleet.

Rotala (Flights Hallmark) have apparently only just lost 13/14 coaches worth of NX work to De Courcey

 

[MCW]

Don't see why First would sell Leicester. It's profitable, has a fairly modern fleet compared to other operators in the area and has no major competition currently so doesn't really require any big investment?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

I see what you mean mate and we both live in Leicester wo we know the ins and outs of it, but like others say, why try to flog a dead horse? Northampton is kind of a dead horse, Leicester isn't. it is a nice little stable operation which could do with some fleet investment and possibly investment into creating or extending existing routes.

First would definitely be better off selling at least one or two profitable locations like Leicester in order to make the money they need to reach their targets, however with 2012 being a turbulent year for first group, we will have to wait until end january at least before we know what is really going on. its fast approaching a year since they announced such sales.

also would be nice to have another bus war in leicester, and a new operator would certainly shake the boat a fair bit.

 

[A0]

Why would First bother to replace the fleet at Northampton with new(er) vehicles when there is doubt over the future of the operation?.

Personaly I hope that the Citybuses are retained and that First see sense and preserve 38122 and rightly so it is a unique bus.

I'd disagree and say that if anything one of the standard Citybuses should be preserved as they are far more representative of what was running around Northampton for many years than 38122 which only looks the way it does now because it was involved in an RTA and rebuilt. It's not the bus which Northampton Transport ordered - it's simply what it has ended up as.

 

[F Great Eastern]

More rumors regarding Aircoach - last few days it's been noticed by someone in Dublin that Dublin Coach, owned by John O'Sullivan who previously sold Aircoach to First in 2004, has been parking vehicles in the Aircoach depot.

Not only that but Dublin Coach staff are now assisting Aircoach passengers with luggage and with coach dispatch alongside Aircoach staff at a city center stop that they both share (but have different routes)

However to contradict that, Aircoach appear to be winning the war with GoBE in relation to the war for the Dublin Aiport - Dublin to Cork direct route, Aircoach continue to run 18 departures a day in each direction from €9 single €18 return to Dublin and €15 single and €25 return to Dublin Airport.

GoBE have announced that from 22nd December they will reduce services from 15 in a day in each direction over the weekend to 10 per day in each direction 7 days a week. In addition they have hiked all fares by €2 so they are now €12 single, €22 return to Dublin and €17 single, €27 return to Dublin Airport.

 

[RPI]

Very little mentioned about Devon & Cornwall, although i have only skimmed this thread, I believe the only burden was the North Devon operations and currently the Plymouth operation but the Cornish operation is quite self contained around Truro/Falmouth/Camborne/Penzance with quite a few commercial routes and a lot of recently won council contracts, from the end of the month it appears that season tickets in the area are going down also, about time as some of the fares down there are quite expensive, especially compared with the train!
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Just to add to that, the First wessk Cornwall is going down to £25 from £37 which will actually compete with rail on some routes, but not on speed.

 

[winston270twm]

Very little mentioned about Devon & Cornwall, although i have only skimmed this thread, I believe the only burden was the North Devon operations and currently the Plymouth operation but the Cornish operation is quite self contained around Truro/Falmouth/Camborne/Penzance with quite a few commercial routes and a lot of recently won council contracts, from the end of the month it appears that season tickets in the area are going down also, about time as some of the fares down there are quite expensive, especially compared with the train!
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Just to add to that, the First wessk Cornwall is going down to £25 from £37 which will actually compete with rail on some routes, but not on speed.

When First group announced they would be selling off loss making/poor performing/non core operations everyone assumed Devon & Cornwall & Cymru would be top of the list to go. But neither featured on the leaked list. I think I've previously posted on her that at the time of the Barnstable deal being agreed with Stagecoach a deal with Stagecoach or another party to dispose of Plymouth had also be agreed, but the deal was supposed to have fallen through.

Judging by the amount of garage/outstation closures, route withdrawals over the last years years and the age of the fleet, I can't imagine its a very profitable operation

 

[overthewater]

I Did state from the start, I did not believe Welsh depots would get sold off. I just had a funny feeling.

 

[90sWereBetter]

I don't think there'll be any more rationalisation/sell off up here with First Eastern Counties, as far as I can see. They sold their Kings Lynn operations to Norfolk Green last year, and closed up shop completely in Bury St Edmunds. Since then, they've entered a bus war with Ipswich Buses in Ipswich (obviously...), revamped the Norwich network with colour-branded routes, and replaced a good number of absolutely clapped out Darts here in Lowestoft with some choice second-hand Enviro 200s.

So it looks like First are here for the long haul.

 

[winston270twm]

I don't think there'll be any more rationalisation/sell off up here with First Eastern Counties, as far as I can see. They sold their Kings Lynn operations to Norfolk Green last year, and closed up shop completely in Bury St Edmunds. Since then, they've entered a bus war with Ipswich Buses in Ipswich (obviously...), revamped the Norwich network with colour-branded routes, and replaced a good number of absolutely clapped out Darts here in Lowestoft with some choice second-hand Enviro 200s.

So it looks like First are here for the long haul.

I agree, I think First are happy with the current operations of Eastern Counties as they are, they are looking to grow market share in Ipswich.

I think Go-ahead will expand again in that area of the country, I think Norfolk Green would be high up on their shopping list & possibly a stake in Ipswich Buses

 

[robertclark125]

I agree, I think First are happy with the current operations of Eastern Counties as they are, they are looking to grow market share in Ipswich.

I think Go-ahead will expand again in that area of the country, I think Norfolk Green would be high up on their shopping list & possibly a stake in Ipswich Buses

As I've stated on the municipal operators in 2013 thread, I think Go Ahead could possibly buy Ipswich Buses completley. Indeed, I state that it's likely to be the only municipal that could be sold in 2013

 

[overthewater]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/sets/72157632307366765/with/8297037858/

The Stock sitting in Gilmoss ready to go to Rock Ferry, Good mix of Brand new, mild life, and end of life stock heading across the mersey

 

[mbonwick]

33472 and the Sprytes will not be going across - they are in the storage part of GM awaiting disposal (ie. a one way trip to Barnsley)

 

[34D]

33472 and the Sprytes will not be going across - they are in the storage part of GM awaiting disposal (ie. a one way trip to Barnsley)

33472 was on the Stagecoach disposal list period 8 a year ago (ie Dec 2012) has it been reinstated since?

 

[mbonwick]

Apologies, should be 33473 awaiting disposal. 33472 is in service at Chorley, although I do believe that should be withdrawn when 22253 gets its new engine and enters service.

 

[317 forever]

The profit margins at Rotala seem to be poor, but the fares in Preston are seemingly extortionate, with someone claiming in the LEP that fares on Preston Bus have gone up four times in a year. But that's digressing

The issue with Rotala here and some claims with a takeover by either Arriva or Go Ahead, well, that brings me back to a point I made earlier in this thread - a spanner in the works when it comes to sales. The poster above mentioned that Rotala may be interested in stuff the big boys aren't interested in. But, if Rotala are doing a deal with First, and suddenly Go-Ahead comes in and offers to buy Rotala, does so, and then either changes the offer to First, or pulls out, then it changes things.
I mention Rotala as we're talking about them, but of course, you could substitute Rotala for ANY firm.

And when we're on the topic of potential purchasers, I'll say again, EYMS group, or, how about this one, Mcgills?

I know what you mean. Maybe Rotala could offer to buy some First operations in Somerset, to complement Wessex Connect. Then if Rotala receive a takeover bid from say Arriva, they would probably abandon talks to buy First in Somerset. I believe a similar thing happened in 1993/94 when Western Travel were about to take over Oxford Bus Company but were instead taken over by Stagecoach. So, Oxford went back on the market and was snapped up by Go-Ahead.

 

[overthewater]

AS it coming up to NEW YEAR does anyone want to make a predictions what might happen this year?

* Mnie is Livingston and Northampton is got rid off.

 

[Qwerty133]

Leicester is sold and the new operator refurbish or replace 95% of the fleet

 

[Volvodart]

Leicester now has one of the highest profit margins in UK bus. Its fleet is not in need of replacing imminently. First Aberdeen has about 60% of its fleet of the age of Leicester's oldest buses and they are getting replaced over the next 4 years. If it does get sold it will be interesting to see how First explain it.

 

[Qwerty133]

Leicester now has one of the highest profit margins in UK bus. Its fleet is not in need of replacing imminently. First Aberdeen has about 60% of its fleet of the age of Leicester's oldest buses and they are getting replaced over the next 4 years. If it does get sold it will be interesting to see how First explain it.

To outsiders that is what it looks like however the busses may not need total replacement however they do need new seat covers and a deep clean and definite repaint