First Greater Glasgow

[JD2168]

That’s good to hear

One of the 53-plate Geminis that moved north about a decade ago has been preserved in South Yorkshire and carries the “orange line” branding for the high frequency 41 from Halfway into Sheffield (this batch of buses were the last new vehicles for Halfway depot before it closed; since reopened by TM Travel) - sorry I don’t have details of the vehicle to hand though

Let’s just not talk about the swap that took place with Sheffield losing double deck 53/06 plate Geminis and “gaining” lots of single deck B7s; I think Glasgow got the better deal there! Thankfully the 51/02/52-plate “toilet boxes” were withdrawn a few years ago

First fleet number for the preserved B7TL is 31787.

One of the SF54 plate versions is at Cawthornes Travel in Rotherham mainly & another SF54 plate is at Shoreline Suncruisers in Scarborough.

 

[PaulMc7]

I feel for drivers more than ever at the minute to be honest. Car congestion has never been worse here and people only blame First and the drivers instead of the council and government who actually can do anything about it. I got a 3 into the City Centre from Partick and it only ran to Jamaica Street as it was an hour late and the driver had to get it back to Scotstoun so he could finish up for the day.

Almost all buses are affected by it even off peak now.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I feel for drivers more than ever at the minute to be honest. Car congestion has never been worse here and people only blame First and the drivers instead of the council and government who actually can do anything about it. I got a 3 into the City Centre from Partick and it only ran to Jamaica Street as it was an hour late and the driver had to get it back to Scotstoun so he could finish up for the day.

Almost all buses are affected by it even off peak now.

What I have heard before across different depots is that whether people like to admit it or not, there are thousands of people living in Glasgow alone who could be doing there journey by bus, walking or cycling, they simply choose not to, however, at this point to start restricting car use when buses have became so abysmal and overpriced I find it unattainable that any restrictions should be placed on motorists causing the brunt of congestion, but the bus lanes in Glasgow should be at least 18hrs per day from 6am with ANPR cameras in action, that'd soon cut down on the issues holding buses up.

Perhaps not in it's entirety but it would definitely make an impact.

 

[PaulMc7]

What I have heard before across different depots is that whether people like to admit it or not, there are thousands of people living in Glasgow alone who could be doing there journey by bus, walking or cycling, they simply choose not to, however, at this point to start restricting car use when buses have became so abysmal and overpriced I find it unattainable that any restrictions should be placed on motorists causing the brunt of congestion, but the bus lanes in Glasgow should be at least 18hrs per day from 6am with ANPR cameras in action, that'd soon cut down on the issues holding buses up.

Perhaps not in it's entirety but it would definitely make an impact.

I wouldn't say buses are overpriced here to be honest but the issue is that people don't realise abysmal levels of funding is what has driven single prices up although they're absolutely not the worst around by any stretch in Glasgow either. Mcgills singles are far worse.

The problem is that car users are incredibly good at playing the victim if you even dare inconvenience them even slightly and politicians are incredibly scared to do it even if it benefits the environment.

 

[318266]

I wouldn't say buses are overpriced here to be honest but the issue is that people don't realise abysmal levels of funding is what has driven single prices up although they're absolutely not the worst around by any stretch in Glasgow either. Mcgills singles are far worse.

The problem is that car users are incredibly good at playing the victim if you even dare inconvenience them even slightly and politicians are incredibly scared to do it even if it benefits the environment.

I have a theory that the reason why McGill's have ludicrous singles is to syphon the government of as much money as possible from concessionary fares while highly publicising returns and day tickets, to the point that certain journeys have cheaper returns (sometimes even day tickets) than singles (Greenock - Glasgow comes to mind). Also means the drunk, the tourists and the budget-unconscious just pay the higher fare without realising that often there are cheaper tickets out there.

In comparison to First where tactics presumably come from the English HQ where this method wouldn't work. I could be completely wrong with that assumption feel free to correct me but this seems to be what is happening to my ears anyway.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I have a theory that the reason why McGill's have ludicrous singles is to syphon the government of as much money as possible from concessionary fares while highly publicising returns and day tickets, to the point that certain journeys have cheaper returns (sometimes even day tickets) than singles (Greenock - Glasgow comes to mind). Also means the drunk, the tourists and the budget-unconscious just pay the higher fare without realising that often there are cheaper tickets out there.

In comparison to First where tactics presumably come from the English HQ where this method wouldn't work. I could be completely wrong with that assumption feel free to correct me but this seems to be what is happening to my ears anyway.

Whilst I am less familiar with the Scottish concessionary fare scheme than the English versions, this seems unlikely. Returns and and in most cases period tickets are normally also usually factored into the reimbursement calculation to avoid just the scenario you (without any justification or evidence!) suggest.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

I wouldn't say buses are overpriced here to be honest but the issue is that people don't realise abysmal levels of funding is what has driven single prices up although they're absolutely not the worst around by any stretch in Glasgow either. Mcgills singles are far worse.

The problem is that car users are incredibly good at playing the victim if you even dare inconvenience them even slightly and politicians are incredibly scared to do it even if it benefits the environment.

Excellent observation. Well said.

 

[Stan_Butler]

I have a theory that the reason why McGill's have ludicrous singles is to syphon the government of as much money as possible from concessionary fares while highly publicising returns and day tickets, to the point that certain journeys have cheaper returns (sometimes even day tickets) than singles (Greenock - Glasgow comes to mind). Also means the drunk, the tourists and the budget-unconscious just pay the higher fare without realising that often there are cheaper tickets out there.

In comparison to First where tactics presumably come from the English HQ where this method wouldn't work. I could be completely wrong with that assumption feel free to correct me but this seems to be what is happening to my ears anyway.

First don’t have an “English HQ”, their Head Office is in Aberdeen!

 

[Spsf3232]

First don’t have an “English HQ”, their Head Office is in Aberdeen!

Most of the operation is run from Leeds. There's not much left in Aberdeen apart from empty office space.

 

[route101]

Seen one of the Glasgow B7TLs heading down South few days ago. I remember seeing the first B7TL on the 44 in late 2014, it was something different. Most people want convivence over sitting on a bus or train.

 

[PaulMc7]

It goes to show just how last minute cancellations can come about from what I experienced today. I got a 57 from Silverburn with it displaying Auchinairn on the front but by the time it got to Parkhouse Road, the driver had been phoned to say there was no driver to swap on so it was only going to Eglinton Toll.

Today the cancellations all seemed in massive bunches to be honest and that's where the issue is for me. Obviously, it's unavoidable in the current climate but the scheduling of them especially on Saturdays is absolutely awful. When I looked on the app, 4 10s in a row were cancelled and then the 38s had bunches of 5 or 6 all cancelled too.

I think there is a genuine case for cutting a lot of services off peak during the week in frequency to prioritise Saturday services as they seem to be far busier although it might change with the Christmas shopping period coming.

It seems to be getting slightly better during the week but for me, Saturdays are far closer to pre-covid than midweek days are.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

38460 - LG72DZE entered service today on the 88.
38459 hasn't entered service yet.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

38460 - LG72DZE entered service today on the 88.
38459 hasn't entered service yet.

The 61 is predominantly E400EV operated with the odd branded B9TL showing up.

The 60/60A has started to see more E400EVs as the new batch has entered service quite quickly. It still sees a real mix, however. The 4, 5 and 57 are seeing a fair few also.

I don’t think it’s First’s intention to have the E400EVs assigned to specific routes but to use them more generally around all Caledonia routes. They’ve started to branch into the Kirky/Cumbernauld routes with some appearing on the 88/89/X3 and 71. Presumably as more start to arrive they’ll push the current E400MMCs out for possible transfer or allow some B9TLs to go.

 

[PaulMc7]

I'm hoping some of the E400 MMCs end up at Scotstoun to help the 2 and 3 out because going full single decker just won't work at all if frequency of either service can't increase and even some of the double deckers on both end up quite full more often now.

The 1C and 1D could also do with more double deckers again too. With how unreliable the Dumbarton 1s can be, they can end up packed instantly.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I'm hoping some of the E400 MMCs end up at Scotstoun to help the 2 and 3 out because going full single decker just won't work at all if frequency of either service can't increase and even some of the double deckers on both end up quite full more often now.

The 1C and 1D could also do with more double deckers again too. With how unreliable the Dumbarton 1s can be, they can end up packed instantly.

The 2 is mainly E400MMC and B9TL. With the new E200EVs on the way I’d hope they’d keep some E400MMCs as you say to run alongside although I would doubt it. When the E300s arrived you were lucky to ever get a decker again on this route. Mind you Covid has happened since then and the frequency has been slashed more than it ever has.

I’m hoping for some E400MMCs too.

 

[Volvodart]

The timetable for the 500 is up on Traveline Scotland. Frequency is going up to every 12 minutes Monday to Friday next month.

 

[PaulMc7]

The timetable for the 500 is up on Traveline Scotland. Frequency is going up to every 12 minutes Monday to Friday next month.

I'm actually quite surprised at that given that I genuinely can't remember the last time one passed me that was actually that busy, not to mention with how short of drivers they still are. I suppose the advantage the 500 has, though, is it's far easier to make profitable in the first place because of the ticket prices.

With the rise in fuel and electricity costs as well as driver wages, it's never been more difficult for a service to be viable, which is why I'm surprised we haven't seen a whole wave of cuts.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I'm actually quite surprised at that given that I genuinely can't remember the last time one passed me that was actually that busy, not to mention with how short of drivers they still are. I suppose the advantage the 500 has, though, is it's far easier to make profitable in the first place because of the ticket prices.

With the rise in fuel and electricity costs as well as driver wages, it's never been more difficult for a service to be viable, which is why I'm surprised we haven't seen a whole wave of cuts.

That is because many bus routes in their current form are not as unprofitable as you may be led to believe.

 

[PaulMc7]

That is because many bus routes in there current form are not as unprofitable as you may be led to believe.

At peak times, I believe there are few services that wouldn't be very profitable going by what I've seen but off peak it's still very questionable here. It's busier than it was but still a fair bit off what it was pre-covid.

The amount of issues with the trains has probably brought in enough to help though. The media figures with the strikes in the summer were around 13-15% increases in passenger numbers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==

ALL bus firms are making sure they make profit even with some internally subsidised loss making routes, that is guaranteed, what is also guaranteed is that the routes that make less revenue than they cost to operate are actually far and few between and for the ones which get very close to running at a loss mostly can’t be reduced much further or you are getting to the territory of them practically being non-existent anyways, of which there is then usually political and public backlash, often so much so the companies back track on plans to withdraw services, for every service that is completely withdrawn by private bus firms we get forever closer to them being regulated, bus bosses know this.

The utmost reason we haven’t seen swathes of cuts more so than reduced timetables is because much of what is possible is still profitable, either by cash fares or government funding.

Public backlash will always be there because a very small percentage actually understand the costs involved in the industry. On a regular basis, I see people shouting for drivers to be paid £25 an hour basic pay for example. You'd need a fair load of cash for that to be viable. Politicians are also very good at not understanding the issues.

We seen that with the likes of the X1, X2, 19A and the 31 in the past. It's very easy to inflict blame on First without understanding the issues. It's the same with buses being late etc due to congestion and roadworks too. The amount of people that get abusive with you for pointing out that First can't do anything about buses being late because of car congestion is pretty awful. It won't matter who runs the buses in Glasgow until the fundamental issues are sorted in the city.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

At peak times, I believe there are few services that wouldn't be very profitable going by what I've seen but off peak it's still very questionable here. It's busier than it was but still a fair bit off what it was pre-covid.

The amount of issues with the trains has probably brought in enough to help though. The media figures with the strikes in the summer were around 13-15% increases in passenger numbers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==


Public backlash will always be there because a very small percentage actually understand the costs involved in the industry. On a regular basis, I see people shouting for drivers to be paid £25 an hour basic pay for example. You'd need a fair load of cash for that to be viable. Politicians are also very good at not understanding the issues.

We seen that with the likes of the X1, X2, 19A and the 31 in the past. It's very easy to inflict blame on First without understanding the issues. It's the same with buses being late etc due to congestion and roadworks too. The amount of people that get abusive with you for pointing out that First can't do anything about buses being late because of car congestion is pretty awful. It won't matter who runs the buses in Glasgow until the fundamental issues are sorted in the city.

Absolutely.

I wouldn’t trust First or any other operators including Glasgow City Councillors to run a sweat shop never mind a bus service.

Just as long as I could be sure that none of the public money which funds bus operations goes into private bank account minus the staff providing the service of course.

 

[PaulMc7]

Absolutely.

I wouldn’t trust First or any other operators including Glasgow City Councillors to run a sweat shop never mind a bus service.

Just as long as I could be sure that none of the public money which funds bus operations goes into private bank account minus the staff providing the service of course.

Privately run buses with some regulations would be fine to be honest. For me, maintenance and profit vs driver wage increases absolutely should be regulated. The drivers probably need to put up with more hate and trouble from passengers here than anywhere else I've been to be honest.

I go to Balloch and Helensburgh sometimes and it's night and day with how polite people are compared to Glasgow and it's only 15-20 miles along the road. I'd say pushing it much further would be tricky but with the profit First have made out of Glasgow, £15 an hour and with far better maintenance should have been possible even before Covid.

I also think changes should be made with far more consultation than they are currently. You'd probably find new links that work well and things you could cut to provide these. Feedback periods of 3 months are suitable IMO but of course, the feedback needs to be taken on board.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

EV decker 38461 - LG72DZF entered service today on the 38B.

 

[PaulMc7]

The Streetlite 47394 branded for the M60 is showing on a 7 on Bustimes.org. I'm guessing that's a mistake or is it at Caledonia to repaint out of the M60 branding? That's the only logical explanation.

47621 was tracking as being on the 1A then 1C this morning too to be fair. It's rare but I have seen Streetlites on the 2 and 3 in the past.

 

[duffers2324]

We seen that with the likes of the X1, X2, 19A and the 31 in the past. It's very easy to inflict blame on First without understanding the issues.

I had a bit of a discussion with some people on another forum i use who were still angry about the 19A being taken off etc, now i was not defending First in any way but just put forward that First had given them a "use it or lose it" scenario the 2nd time round and obviously there must have been still not enough people using the bus to make it viable and saying if they had a business would they be able to keep it running if they knew it was making losses etc

Also in the same conversation some of them had apparently asked during the "consultation" with First that an alternative could have been to send a 19 round every half an hour or so and First told them that wasn't going to happen, also one or 2 were asking why the bus had to terminate in the city centre as opposed to going further, my thoughts at the time were well if its not making a profit just going into town then why would they extend it with more expense of extra buses and drivers needed not to mention they would then be complaining about the congestion etc for the fact it ran through the town and a longer route.

I will admit over the last couple of years is i have realised not everything is Firsts fault and granted they are trying to run a business and for some obscure reason people think First are swimming in money as well which seems to give them a platform to say "just put extra buses on etc for routes" unfortunately its not as simple as that!

 

[smtglasgow]

I understand the reasons why First pulled out, but at the same time I still think that there was scope for them to do more to try and serve Robroyston. It must be the fastest growing part of the city, but the newest parts have terrible public transport options – even the new station is quite a hike.

I get that the people moving into new builds are the ‘wrong’ type of customer, but Lothian seem to be good at getting into new developments even before all the housing is built. Is there no developer funding available in Robroyston? Even if they extended the 87 a bit further it would be an improvement. We’ve got friends that moved there during Covid and they bought a second car within weeks – madness!

 

[PaulMc7]

I had a bit of a discussion with some people on another forum i use who were still angry about the 19A being taken off etc, now i was not defending First in any way but just put forward that First had given them a "use it or lose it" scenario the 2nd time round and obviously there must have been still not enough people using the bus to make it viable and saying if they had a business would they be able to keep it running if they knew it was making losses etc

Also in the same conversation some of them had apparently asked during the "consultation" with First that an alternative could have been to send a 19 round every half an hour or so and First told them that wasn't going to happen, also one or 2 were asking why the bus had to terminate in the city centre as opposed to going further, my thoughts at the time were well if its not making a profit just going into town then why would they extend it with more expense of extra buses and drivers needed not to mention they would then be complaining about the congestion etc for the fact it ran through the town and a longer route.

I will admit over the last couple of years is i have realised not everything is Firsts fault and granted they are trying to run a business and for some obscure reason people think First are swimming in money as well which seems to give them a platform to say "just put extra buses on etc for routes" unfortunately its not as simple as that!

The ideal alternative at the time was extending the 57A or 87 into Robroyston as both were very minimal extensions I think but obviously that didn't happen. The X2 was horrendous as an alternative as it didn't even go to the Asda either to link with the 8. I used it twice and combined there were 5 people on it in total. The train station opening obviously didn't help.

I've already seen people claim Caledonia can run more services just because of the 254 frequency increase from Monday. The biggest depots for most companies are the worst affected at the minute with staff shortages.

If money and drivers were available to the rate that some of the public think, I genuinely believe we would have services like the 8 and 90 even every 5-10 minutes. Some of the suggestions are pretty wild. At least on forums on here, the majority have been very reasonable and could actually work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==

I understand the reasons why First pulled out, but at the same time I still think that there was scope for them to do more to try and serve Robroyston. It must be the fastest growing part of the city, but the newest parts have terrible public transport options – even the new station is quite a hike.

I get that the people moving into new builds are the ‘wrong’ type of customer, but Lothian seem to be good at getting into new developments even before all the housing is built. Is there no developer funding available in Robroyston? Even if they extended the 87 a bit further it would be an improvement. We’ve got friends that moved there during Covid and they bought a second car within weeks – madness!

The 57A and 87 are both right there for Robroyston extensions or even the 8 could be made into a circle around Glendale. I think First thought SPT would go for it and even at the minute the 19A JMB cover is cut horrendously.

Until people change and suddenly realise you don't need a car to go everywhere, nothing will really change. The government and councils don't really help with that either, though.

When Sighthill is fully developed again it'll be interesting to see if First direct anything that way like they did with the 10 previously. I'd not be surprised if they didn't, though. New ideas absolutely can work if enough thought is put into them though.

The Queen Elizabeth University Hospital is another example of the good and bad with car use in the city. The 77 was a great idea and works very well for students, shoppers and NHS staff yet outside of peak times, you could easily cut the 8 and 16 back to just Partick they're that quiet.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I had a bit of a discussion with some people on another forum i use who were still angry about the 19A being taken off etc, now i was not defending First in any way but just put forward that First had given them a "use it or lose it" scenario the 2nd time round and obviously there must have been still not enough people using the bus to make it viable and saying if they had a business would they be able to keep it running if they knew it was making losses

Which is exactly why having a private business in charge of a public service simply doesn’t work. To run the 19A when they had enough drivers would’ve been affordable to run for the operation.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Which is exactly why having a private business in charge of a public service simply doesn’t work, to run the 19A when they had enough drivers would’ve been affordable to run for the operation.

That doesn't make sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==

Even if they extended the 87 a bit further it would be an improvement.

Isn't the 87 almost a carbon copy of the old 45? That would take about 45 minutes to travel into Glasgow and hardly anyone would give that the time of day.

 

[PaulMc7]

That doesn't make sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==


Isn't the 87 almost a carbon copy of the old 45? That would take about 45 minutes to travel into Glasgow and hardly anyone would give that the time of day.

The full route of the 87 is 30 minutes from Buchanan Bus Station to Auchinairn and the 57A is 27 minutes to Buchanan Galleries from Balornock East so with an extension to either it would probably be 40 minutes in total if you put it through Glendale to Robroyston Asda.

The X2 barely had any stops on the full route and I think that was part of the issue. There wasn't much of a chance to pick up a fair amount of passengers at all. I get the idea by competing with the train and using the M80 but it was always destined to fail.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

That doesn't make sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Nov 2022 ==

First Glasgow could have easily afforded to run the 19A financially.