First Greater Glasgow

[PaulMc7]

I took a 263 to Glasgow and it was standing room only by Cambuslang. It was a streetlite.

I've seen a few streetlites on them to be fair. It's definitely beginning to get busier again on the buses and I think the mess the trains are in at the moment is helping massively.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

This is why privatisation isn’t going to work long term, that’s not to say that nationalisation will be any better for Glasgow.

It really is shambolic in no small part a problem First Bus has massively help cultivate here.

The brashness they’ve taken in thinking that continuing to order singles or doubles with lacklustre electrical range and no doubt planning to retire older vehicles such as the B9s which have been retrofitted for Euro6.

I understand there has to be a consensus on Zero Emission buses for the environments sake however before the present issues with lack of drivers therefore reduced frequencies which are not new problems have persisted for sometime.

You would think that First directors and managers would’ve been cautious about how the current circumstances in the city would’ve looked however I simply think that the companies directors and managers have been grotesquely naive regarding how things were panning out.

Brexit and COVID aside, what has the company done really to stave off the problems? Raise wages? It’s not good enough.
F
The Enviro 200 EV is a disaster in itself to think it was ever going to replace many of the tried, trusted and noticeably larger B7RLEs that came before them.

The 200 EVs have abysmal heating systems, often blowing cold air as the heat pump technology they use is simply not sufficient enough to heat said vehicle in winter of which the same system is fitted to the 400EV with an even larger interior, a solution to the problem in winter being Diesel-fired Heaters, which can be installed.

You would've loved it back in the days when First Glasgow's predecessor's fleets were made up of high step Volvo Ailsas, AH Citybuses and Leyland Tigers. They had excellent acceleration and you didn't need to worry about interlocks, fuel efficiency technology, wheelchairs and prams. Ticket machines with no data in them, no concession cards, under 22 cards and contactless.

The Volvo B7rles only have two more seats than most of the single decks on the market these days. The Volvo B7rles and Volvo B7tls which may all be withdrawn by now I'd say are amongst the worst built buses to operate in Glasgow since the panoramic Leyland Atlanteans mainly due to their poor bodywork.

 

[route101]

I seen a B7RLE on a 7 on Saturday, first one I have seen in a while.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

You would've loved it back in the days when First Glasgow's predecessor's fleets were made up of high step Volvo Ailsas, AH Citybuses and Leyland Tigers. They had excellent acceleration and you didn't need to worry about interlocks, fuel efficiency technology, wheelchairs and prams. Ticket machines with no data in them, no concession cards, under 22 cards and contactless.

The Volvo B7rles only have two more seats than most of the single decks on the market these days. The Volvo B7rles and Volvo B7tls which may all be withdrawn by now I'd say are amongst the worst built buses to operate in Glasgow since the panoramic Leyland Atlanteans mainly due to their poor bodywork.

I would say the B7TLs are one of the smoothest buses out there. They feel solid too.-

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

I've seen a few streetlites on them to be fair. It's definitely beginning to get busier again on the buses and I think the mess the trains are in at the moment is helping massively.

On Saturday two streetlites left Buchanan Bus Station within minute or two of each other. You would think they would make one wait as its every half hour. Must be due to drivers hours.

 

[XAM2175]

Multiple 41s and 60s cancelled also.
Most showing on the app tbh

I was at Sauchiehall Street heading north around 1620 and there two 61s in a row showing cancelled, and two sets of 60s and 60As around the same time had both bunched up so there ended up being at least one 20-minute period where a lot of people were waiting and nothing was coming.

I've also had two occasions in the past five days where I've had a "ghost" bus heading into town, which is not as bad but it still undermines the perception of the app's reliability.

The 9 and 9A were bad yesterday too. The 9 I eventually got was very busy and our driver kept pointing people towards the bus in front of it. The strange part of this though is that the bus in front of my 9 was a McGill's 38 so basically handing competition some passengers.

Not very helpful if you've got a First-only ticket!

The 200 EVs have abysmal heating systems, often blowing cold air as the heat pump technology they use is simply not sufficient enough to heat said vehicle in winter of which the same system is fitted to the 400EV with an even larger interior, a solution to the problem in winter being Diesel-fired Heaters, which can be installed.

In all honesty that's fine by me - anything that reduces the likelihood of the bus becoming a sauna is a positive.

You would've loved it back in the days when First Glasgow's predecessor's fleets were made up of high step Volvo Ailsas, AH Citybuses and Leyland Tigers. They had excellent acceleration and you didn't need to worry about interlocks, fuel efficiency technology, wheelchairs and prams. Ticket machines with no data in them, no concession cards, under 22 cards and contactless.

Wheelchairs might slow things down in places but I don't like this apparent suggestion that we were better off without them.

As to concession cards and contactless payment, it's no secret - and not news either - that these can all be made much faster in use.

 

[PaulMc7]

I was at Sauchiehall Street heading north around 1620 and there two 61s in a row showing cancelled, and two sets of 60s and 60As around the same time had both bunched up so there ended up being at least one 20-minute period where a lot of people were waiting and nothing was coming.

I've also had two occasions in the past five days where I've had a "ghost" bus heading into town, which is not as bad but it still undermines the perception of the app's reliability.


Not very helpful if you've got a First-only ticket!

The 60s and 61s have been awful lately from experience and bunch up for most of the day. The 60/60A aren't helped by their route lengths to be honest.

I've said enough about the app and how bad it is to be honest. Another thing about it that doesn't help though is the lack of updates on it so it's very prone to issues.

August 16th is the last update I've had for it on my phone and most of the apps I have on my phone update weekly or fortnightly at worst. The app team are probably as short staffed as anyone else so I think it'll take a miracle for that to change. The fact cancellation testing began nearly 3 months ago now and we've not had it fully up and running or at least a date for it is utterly dreadful.

The 10 wasn't far behind but our driver definitely had no idea of that. The last thing you do is hand rivals customers to be honest so it was strange.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

I would say the B7TLs are one of the smoothest buses out there. They feel solid too.-

Mechanically they're fine, but the Wright Gemini body not so much. The 6 Plaxton Presidents were better IMO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

Wheelchairs might slow things down in places but I don't like this apparent suggestion that we were better off without them.

As to concession cards and contactless payment, it's no secret - and not news either - that these can all be made much faster in use.

Don't worry, I didn't really mean that. I was being tongue in cheek

 

[computerSaysNo]

I've edited my post from a few days ago with where services could be cut to improve reliability. Most changes are just reducing the frequency by one step without it becoming too infrequent. I've suggested some services merge (e.g. 5 and 6A) to reduce waiting time to try to improve efficiency.

Can anyone help me to complete this list with vehicle types and ensure the frequencies are correct? Thanks.

Key

Sd	Single-deck vehicle
Dd	Double-deck vehicle

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type
1 1A 1B		10

Services combined for stated headway...

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type
	1	30
	1A	30
	1B	30

...made up of these individual services.

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type
227		30
	227	60

Full route runs on lesser headway. Additional journeys operate part-route for increased headway.

1-19

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
1 1A 1B		10	Sd	Doesn't seem to be too affected by cancellations.
	1	30
	1A	30
	1B	30
1C 1D		10	Sd	Doesn't seem to be too affected by cancellations.
	1C	20
	1D	20
2		12	Mix	Reduce to every 15 mins and convert to doubledeck operation.
3		15	Dd	Reduce to every 20 mins.
4 4A		20	Dd	Unsure if possible to reduce to every 30 mins (each branch every 60')? Extend from Broomhill to Knightswood fully replacing X4.
5		15	Dd	Reduce to every 20 mins. Extend from City Centre to Drumchapel fully replacing 6A.
6		15	Mix	Reduce to every 20 mins and convert to doubledeck operation.
6A		15	Mix	Withdraw, fully replace with 5.
7 7A		12	?	Reduce each branch to every 30 mins (combined frequency every 15 mins).
8		30	?
9 9A		7.5	Sd	9: Reducefrom every 15 mins to every 30 mins and run with doubledecks. 9A: Unchanged @ every 15 mins Buchanan - Penilee. 10: Renumber 9B and reduce to every 30 mins. 9 and 9B combine on common section for service every 15 mins. Adding 9A brings to every 7.5 mins. Run entire thing with doubledecks.
10		20	?	Renumber to 9B.
14		60	?
16		30	?
18		15	?	Reduce to every 20 mins.
19		20	?	Reduce to every 30 mins.

20-39

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
21		30	Dd
31		30	?
34		15	Sd	Reduce to every 20 mins.
38 38A		15	Dd	Unsure if frequency can be reduced at all?
	38	30
	38A	30
38B 38C		15	Dd	Unsure if frequency can be reduced at all?
	38B	30
	38C	30
38E		30	Dd

41-59

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
41		15	?	Reduce to every 20 mins.
43		30	?
46		30	?
49		60	?
57 57A		10	Dd
	57	20		Reduce to every 30 mins.
	57A	20		Reduce to every 30 mins.
59		60	?

60-79

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
60 60A		15	Dd	Can't really reduce frequency at all as each branch is already only every 30 mins.
	60	30
	60A	30
M60		15	Sd
61		15	Dd	Run as-is Summerston to City Centre, then as per current route 64 to roundabouts at southwest corner of Sandyhills Golf. Route splits: 50% of journeys (every 30 mins) follow current 61 route to Sandyhills; other 50% follow current 64 route to Carmyle.
64		30	?	Withdraw route (fully replaced by modified 61).
65		30	?
75		12	Dd	Reduce to every 15 mins.
77		15	Dd	Is it possible to reduce City - Braehead to every 20 mins or every 30 mins with one an hour going to the Airport?
	77	30

80-99

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
81		15-20	Dd	Reduce to every 30 mins.
87		20	Dd	Reduce to every 30 mins.
88		20	Dd	Reduce to every 30 mins.
89 89B		20	Dd
	89	20-40
	89B	60
90		30	?
93 193		60	?

100-199
(no services)

200-219

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
201		15	Sd	Reduce to every 20 mins.
206		15	Sd	Reduce to every 20 mins.
208		45	Sd

220-239

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
226		15	Sd
227		30	Sd	Reduce to every 60 mins over whole route.
	227	60
229		60	Sd

240-259

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
240		12	Sd	Section City to Baillieston increase to every 10 mins and use doubledeckers. This section needs to be frequent due to removal of route 61 from Bellgrove and Tollcross area. Every second journey (every 20 mins) continues as per current route to Overtown using doubledecks.
241		7.5	?	Reduce whole route to every 15 mins.
	241	15
242		20	Sd	Reduce to every 30 mins.
244		60	?
251		60	?
254		15	?	Reduce to every 20 mins.
255		30	Sd

260-279

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
263		30	Sd
266		7.5	Sd	Reduce each branch to every 20 mins (combined frequency then every 10 mins).
	266	15
	266	15
267		15	Dd	Reduce to every 20 mins.

Other

Route	Route	Frequency (mins)	Type	Changes/Comments
500		15	Dd
M3		60	Sd
M4		60	Sd
M11		30	Sd
U1		30	Dd
X3		20	Dd	Reduce to hourly if possible? As alternatives exist (Stagecoach).
X4		30	Dd
X8		30	Dd
X11		30	Dd
X85 X87		15	Dd
	X85	30
	X87	30

Edit: I apologize for the really rubbish formatting of the tables. In the editor they are formatted neatly but when I pressed the button to Post it compressed all the tables which is not what I wanted.
Edit 2: Think I've got the formatting as fixed as I can get it.
Edit 3: Added suggestions for where services could be cut to improve reliability.

 

[XAM2175]

Can anyone help me to complete this list with vehicle types and ensure the frequencies are correct? Thanks.

Both the 8 and the 90 are singles. Pre-Covid the 90 often had a double-deck or three out in the peak, but I don't think that's the case now - instead they both seem to be predominantly run using 2-branded singles.

The 60s and 61s have been awful lately from experience and bunch up for most of the day. The 60/60A aren't helped by their route lengths to be honest.

I mean they pretty much always bunched, which is annoying but at least not a new development, but it is more apparent and more problematic now. The difficulty now is that it only takes a few cancellations to put big gaps in the Maryhill Road service, and with passenger volumes being what they are the first bus following the gap is quickly overwhelmed.

I've said enough about the app and how bad it is to be honest. Another thing about it that doesn't help though is the lack of updates on it so it's very prone to issues.

In fairness to them I wouldn't say that this is automatically a bad thing; after all, if the app itself is stable and the problems are in the backend data then there's nothing than update will do for it anyway - and both the ghost buses and the patchy rollout of cancellations strike me as being backend problems.

The 10 wasn't far behind but our driver definitely had no idea of that. The last thing you do is hand rivals customers to be honest so it was strange.

Oh I don't give a tinker's damn about handing customers to rivals, because the whole competition thing is tosh anyway, and if we had interoperable tickets by default it wouldn't trouble me in the slightest. My objection is to the idea that a service that doesn't accept First tickets can serve as a viable alternative for First passengers.

Don't worry, I didn't really mean that. I was being tongue in cheek

All good then!

 

[smtglasgow]

It's one of those routes I wouldn't be surprised if First got rid of to be honest.

First wanted to get rid of the 64 about 10 years ago. The MP at the time, Margaret Curran, ran a campaign to keep it. To be honest, there’s been a lot of new housing in the East End so it seems busier than it used to be – plus the reduced 18 means it picks up quite a few in Bridgeton. Pulling the 8 out of Carmyle helped it a bit too, although I guess most people in Carmyle use the train.

 

[GusB]

There was an existing thread for proposed changes to First Glasgow services and some posts have been moved over. The thread is here:

[Speculative] Ideas for First Glasgow service changes

Mod note: Posts #1 to #16 were originally in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/first-greater-glasgow.164437/ I have the following suggestions for changes to First Glasgow services: Service 1: Helensburgh - Parkhead via Balloch, Clydebank, Drumchapel, Crow road, replace service...

www.railforums.co.uk

Please keep this thread for discussing services as they are now. Thanks

 

[PaulMc7]

First wanted to get rid of the 64 about 10 years ago. The MP at the time, Margaret Curran, ran a campaign to keep it. To be honest, there’s been a lot of new housing in the East End so it seems busier than it used to be – plus the reduced 18 means it picks up quite a few in Bridgeton. Pulling the 8 out of Carmyle helped it a bit too, although I guess most people in Carmyle use the train.

Carmyle as an area is a weird one to be honest. It's served by solely SPT contracts other than the 64 daytime service Monday to Saturday. The position of the M74 junction and the train station also being there won't help along with the size of the area. It's too small to get a lot out of on it's own.

 

[Jarcoed]

I managed to ride one of the new 72 plate Enviro400 EV's. I don't know if these are new or just to the 72 plates but the bus stopping sound effects are really loud and annoying

Overall, the E400EV's are good buses

 

[JumpinTrainz]

With more E400EVs and E200EVs due, I’d imagine there’s going to be a surplus of deckers and singles. I’m wondering if we’ll see some B9TL transfers and E300/E200MMCs transfer down South now that FSE is no longer in existence.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

With more E400EVs and E200EVs due, I’d imagine there’s going to be a surplus of deckers and singles. I’m wondering if we’ll see some B9TL transfers and E300/E200MMCs transfer down South now that FSE is no longer in existence.

B9TLs won't be going anywhere as they're Euro 6 and have been upgraded with the Scottish Government funds so can't go anywhere for 5 years from when the work was carried out. This has been mentioned multiple times in this chat.

 

[PaulMc7]

I'd imagine it would be smart to keep any buses here, even if not needed for every single day. Some extras for services could actually be profitable just now, going by passenger loads at peak times. Hopefully the industry bounces back in terms of staffing than expected so that it's possible for service increases instead of decreases.

 

[ScotRail158725]

With more E400EVs and E200EVs due, I’d imagine there’s going to be a surplus of deckers and singles. I’m wondering if we’ll see some B9TL transfers and E300/E200MMCs transfer down South now that FSE is no longer in existence.

The 65 plate E400s and the 68 plate stock is looking likely to be what gets replaced with the coming orders. Woth the B7TLs now gone and as already said the B9s will be staying in Glasgow for at least another 4 years, which will likely involve a bulk replacement as they’ll all be ELVs, and the low height Enviro 400s being required in Glasgow it looks like the Enviro 300s and 68/19 stock are the prime targets for replacement which will cascade down south to replace ageing stock

 

[Rory N]

The 65 plate E400s and the 68 plate stock is looking likely to be what gets replaced with the coming orders. Woth the B7TLs now gone and as already said the B9s will be staying in Glasgow for at least another 4 years, which will likely involve a bulk replacement as they’ll all be ELVs, and the low height Enviro 400s being required in Glasgow it looks like the Enviro 300s and 68/19 stock are the prime targets for replacement which will cascade down south to replace ageing stock

Was there not something that the 68/19 plate E400s couldn’t be transferred out of Scotland for up to a certain amount of years as they were bought with funding from the Scottish government? Keeping that in mind, the 68 E400s are nearly 5 years old.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

As the current E400s begin to age I do wonder if the plan will be to procure some new low height buses for the 6 or whether First will make this route single decker operated. Since Covid the 6 has predominantly went back to deckers but just prior to that it was mainly B7RLEs and E300s.

 

[Volvodart]

They are only mid life just now, they have a few years left!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2022 ==

The 65 plate E400s and the 68 plate stock is looking likely to be what gets replaced with the coming orders. Woth the B7TLs now gone and as already said the B9s will be staying in Glasgow for at least another 4 years, which will likely involve a bulk replacement as they’ll all be ELVs, and the low height Enviro 400s being required in Glasgow it looks like the Enviro 300s and 68/19 stock are the prime targets for replacement which will cascade down south to replace ageing stock

There is also the 5 year time limit restriction on new and converted Euro6 emission buses to factor in to this.

 

[PaulMc7]

https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.service.gov.uk/search/find-registered-local-bus-services/browse/results/?fields%5Bstatus%5D=&fields%5BacceptedDate%5D=2022-11-11&fields%5BtrafficAreas%5D%5B0%5D=M&security=d74df0e71370515ea4c5f822c6c0b2b9-20f68410485299a38dd92c9c4c6a249e&form-actions%5Bsubmit%5D=#validationSummary

A new registration for the 254 has been put on VOSA today.

PM0000006/353 Registered (Short notice)
FIRST GLASGOW (NO2) LTD

Route: Newarthill, Mosshall Street to Motherwell, West Hamilton Street via Carfin

Service number: 254

Service type: Normal Stopping

Effective date: 28 Nov 2022

 

[route101]

As the current E400s begin to age I do wonder if the plan will be to procure some new low height buses for the 6 or whether First will make this route single decker operated. Since Covid the 6 has predominantly went back to deckers but just prior to that it was mainly B7RLEs and E300s.

I would be surprised if they replaced them. I wouldn't be surprised if they go quite soon. What happened to Hybrids that went off the road?

I see a few low heights on the 2.

The low heights have always featured on the 6.

 

[Ben Conlin]

The 65 plate E400s and the 68 plate stock is looking likely to be what gets replaced with the coming orders. Woth the B7TLs now gone and as already said the B9s will be staying in Glasgow for at least another 4 years, which will likely involve a bulk replacement as they’ll all be ELVs, and the low height Enviro 400s being required in Glasgow it looks like the Enviro 300s and 68/19 stock are the prime targets for replacement which will cascade down south to replace ageing stock

Can a lot of the e400s be replaced though? When a lot are on express services such as the X11 which aren’t suitable for electrification unless rapid charging mechanisms like dc fast chargers or pantographs are introduced at terminus locations to extend daily running time.

 

[Volvodart]

I would be surprised if they replaced them. I wouldn't be surprised if they go quite soon.

As far as I am aware they are now Euro6 emissions which means they have to be kept for 5 years after conversion.

 

[route101]

As far as I am aware they are now Euro6 emissions which means they have to be kept for 5 years after conversion.

Ok, least the 6 will see some decker action for a while yet. They aren't the most reliable of buses.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Can a lot of the e400s be replaced though? When a lot are on express services such as the X11 which aren’t suitable for electrification unless rapid charging mechanisms like dc fast chargers or pantographs are introduced at terminus locations to extend daily running time.

The EVs would no doubt take over most city work and push out the remaining diesels to said express routes that are unsuitable for electric buses. I mean there’s still like 40+ new buses due but equally First will only replace like for like so there isn’t a surplus.

I imagine First are heavily relying on the idea that technology will advance in the years leading up to their full diesel fleet eventually needing replaced. Their newest diesels are only 3/4 years old so it’ll be a long time yet. The new E400EV is already giving better range so who knows. I imagine Blantyre will be next to go electric after Scotstoun.

 

[PaulMc7]

Ok, least the 6 will see some decker action for a while yet. They aren't the most reliable of buses.

The 6 reliability is taking an absolute battering now as there are roadworks on Great Western Road just at Gartnavel Hospital and then the diversion with Pollokshaws Road being closed isn't helping either as there is barely room to turn onto Butterbiggins Road due to how close to the corner people park their cars.

The E400s really are getting very worn down from the ones I've used lately and they were never that comfortable to begin with.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Can a lot of the e400s be replaced though? When a lot are on express services such as the X11 which aren’t suitable for electrification unless rapid charging mechanisms like dc fast chargers or pantographs are introduced at terminus locations to extend daily running time.

None of this will presumably stop First from proceeding with its steadfast approach to electrification despite the unsuitability it might pose to place an EV on to motorway based express services.

The EVs would no doubt take over most city work and push out the remaining diesels to said express routes that are unsuitable for electric buses. I mean there’s still like 40+ new buses due but equally First will only replace like for like so there isn’t a surplus.

I imagine First are heavily relying on the idea that technology will advance in the years leading up to their full diesel fleet eventually needing replaced. Their newest diesels are only 3/4 years old so it’ll be a long time yet. The new E400EV is already giving better range so who knows. I imagine Blantyre will be next to go electric after Scotstoun.

The next generation 400EV may have the better range but also what’s its top speed?

The current BYD products in Glasgow only reach roughly 42mph, this can be circumvented by increasing the rear diff ratio but this idea stifles acceleration.

Volvo has gotten round this problem by fitting their own EVs with a 2 speed automated gearbox.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The next generation 400EV may have the better range but also what’s its top speed?

The current BYD products in Glasgow only reach roughly 42mph, this can be circumvented by increasing the rear diff ratio but this idea stifles acceleration.

Volvo has gotten round this problem by fitting there own EVs with a 2 speed automated gearbox.

ADL is advertising the new generation Enviro400EV as suitable for "Interurban" routes. So presumably the top speed has been improved.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Am I seeing right that 38452 is on the 2 today?

 

[92002]

Am I seeing right that 38452 is on the 2 today?

If you believe Bus times, which can be a bit dodgy at best. It did a 46 to Easterhouse earlier. Then Faifley and back and now back on a 46.