FGW Franchise Extension

[JamesRowden]

GW 16x cascades should start in 2017 (electrics are supposed to start Dec 2016).
But a lot of water has to go under the bridge yet.
The early cascades may go to strengthen existing services (eg Reading-Gatwick, or Cotswold).
It will probably be the ITT for the next GW franchise (issued in 2015) which will confirm where the fleet will go.

Electric services will be able to run the Reading - Paddington stoppers as soon as Reading - Hayes & Harlington has been electrified. Since Newbury and Oxford are meant to be electrified by 2016, perhaps Reading - Hayes & Harlington will be electrified by the end of this 2-year frachise extension. I think that they might run the Reading - Paddington stoppers at 4tph and convert the Oxford - Paddington stoppers (2tph) to fast services east of Reading (as the new viaduct to be built to the west of Reading station has clearly been designed to allow).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Electric services will be able to run the Reading - Paddington stoppers as soon as Reading - Hayes & Harlington has been electrified. Since Newbury and Oxford are meant to be electrified by 2016, perhaps Reading - Hayes & Harlington will be electrified by the end of this 2-year frachise extension. I think that they might run the Reading - Paddington stoppers at 4tph and convert the Oxford - Paddington stoppers (2tph) to fast services east of Reading (as the new viaduct to be built to the west of Reading station has clearly been designed to allow).

As far as I can see NR are intending to wire the Reading-Didcot section first.
Plans are still very vague, and today's announcement doesn't really put any flesh on the bones.
There's a very steep learning curve ahead.

 

[swt_passenger]

The DfT refers to "more electric trains for Thames Valley". What does that mean? They don't have any now and will not be getting any within the 23 month extension period.

The text refers to 'working with FGW on proposalS for' which means stuff like planning the training for staff, organising the depot works, timetable changes etc etc. Normal business for the TOC's operations and fleet staff in other words.

This sort of thing has to be written into the franchise extension to avoid FGW ignoring future developments for two years.

The DfT announcement as written is compatible with the intended timescales...

 

[TEW]

The Maidnhead-Hayes section is part of Crossrail too so will be done to a different timescale to the rest of the GWML electrification.

 

[JamesRowden]

The Maidnhead-Hayes section is part of Crossrail too so will be done to a different timescale to the rest of the GWML electrification.

Since the Great Western electrification to Newbury and Oxford is to be completed 3 years before Crossrail services are due to run to Maidenhead (2019), I think that it is clear that Maidenhead-Hayes electrification will have been transferred to the Great Western electrification timetable.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The DfT announcement as written is compatible with the intended timescales...

The footnote about electrification says:

•the electrification of GWML from Paddington to Bristol, Oxford and Newbury by 2016-17

This is the first hint of slippage in the electrification timetable.
Before, it was firmly "by December 2016".

 

[YorkshireBear]

The footnote about electrification says:


This is the first hint of slippage in the electrification timetable.
Before, it was firmly "by December 2016".

Unfortunately i think Government have piled it on NR and a few projects are going to head that way.

 

[davetheguard]

As far as I can see NR are intending to wire the Reading-Didcot section first.
Plans are still very vague, and today's announcement doesn't really put any flesh on the bones.
There's a very steep learning curve ahead.

Reading to Didcot is straightforward to electrify - it is effectively four parallel single lines from the crossovers east of Tilehurst right through to Moreton cutting just east of Didcot. This may be why it's being done first; it will give the new team a chance to build experience with the new electrification train.

Returning to today's announcement, there seems to be no mention a start of daily services to Okehampton or any of the other proposed enhancements that were mentioned in the original ITT - for which separately priced quotes were required.

 

[ainsworth74]

Reading to Didcot is straightforward to electrify - it is effectively four parallel single lines from the crossovers east of Tilehurst right through to Moreton cutting just east of Didcot. This may be why it's being done first; it will give the new team a chance to build experience with the new electrification train.

There is similar logic being applied with the wiring up north. The last I read the line between Leeds and Selby/York was being wired first as that was considered fairly simple and good place for a team to cut its teeth.

 

[WatcherZero]

The footnote about electrification says:


This is the first hint of slippage in the electrification timetable.
Before, it was firmly "by December 2016".

There was talk of GW slippage in Summer I think, similarly Bolton/Blackpool switched places in the Lancashire electrification timetable and the T&WAO application for Ordsall Chord now indicates early 2017 rather than Dec 2016 completion, on the plus side ORR is pressuring NR to finish Electric Spine to Sheffield in 2019 rather than 2020 bringing it into CP5 from CP6 though.

 

[YorkshireBear]

There is similar logic being applied with the wiring up north. The last I read the line between Leeds and Selby/York was being wired first as that was considered fairly simple and good place for a team to cut its teeth.

That and it also allows benefits for East Coast earlier than the full scheme. I believe Didcot Reading is also being considered because it is a straightforward section with some spare capacity for testing IEPs. Saw it in Modern Railways the other month.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is similar logic being applied with the wiring up north. The last I read the line between Leeds and Selby/York was being wired first as that was considered fairly simple and good place for a team to cut its teeth.

One very important criterion is where the power is coming from.
I think the main grid power connection for GW will be at Didcot (which has plenty of capacity with the local power station infrastructure).
All resignalling also needs to be done before the wires go live, which might impact Oxford, for instance.

I think Leeds-Selby/York is being fed off the existing ECML supply so it's simpler to get going there.
TP proper needs a new sub-station at Stalybridge before wires via Standedge are any use.

 

[Mojo]

Listed as April 2014 for those, and as far as I'm aware that's still on course.

I feel sorry for the staff at these locations. Will train dispatch staff change hands at both stations too? What are the advantages in having Network Rail rather than the Toc manage the stations?

 

[swt_passenger]

I feel sorry for the staff at these locations. Will train dispatch staff change hands at both stations too? What are the advantages in having Network Rail rather than the Toc manage the stations?

There's no real reason dispatch staff would change employers, it isn't exactly consistent at other NR managed stations.

The main advantage for NR is the retail revenue.

 

[fgwrich]

Hmmm.

•increasing the capacity of the existing high speed train fleet, with the addition of new seating in advance of the arrival of the new intercity express trains

HSTs to get IEP Seats?

 

[Mojo]

There's no real reason dispatch staff would change employers, it isn't exactly consistent at other NR managed stations.

When Gatwick Airport transferred to become one of the 'Major stations' the dispatch staff also moved over[1], and also when LM/XC were formed the Central Trains dispatch staff at New Street Birmingham also transferred. However you are right that there is no consistency; Leeds for example has Transpennine staff for their services, Northern staff for their services and East Coast for XC and East Coast services.

[1] Of course recently Gatwick Airport has moved to Southern, and the former Network Rail station staff were Tuped over.

 

[Sleepy]

While I am very pleased that there will be extra coaches on Sleeper service the cynic in me wonders if the seated coach is just to help massage the figures - look at the extra seats now available on FGW ?

 

[LexyBoy]

HSTs to get IEP Seats?

Well, the DfT drafts showed IEP sets as having lower density seating than the current sets - only 4 extra seats in an extra 3 metres of carriage. Of course we don't know FGW's plans.

Surely there's no way of packing more seating into the HSTs is there (save converting buffets or 1st class)? Maybe another couple of seats but surely not worth the cost for a few years of use.

also:

•smart ticketing

Surely FGW have better ways to waste money don't they?

 

[swt_passenger]

When Gatwick Airport transferred to become one of the 'Major stations' the dispatch staff also moved over[1], and also when LM/XC were formed the Central Trains dispatch staff at New Street Birmingham also transferred. However you are right that there is no consistency; Leeds for example has Transpennine staff for their services, Northern staff for their services and East Coast for XC and East Coast services.

[1] Of course recently Gatwick Airport has moved to Southern, and the former Network Rail station staff were Tuped over.

I'm personally only completely familiar with Waterloo, where you'd be hard pressed to see anyone not working for SWT on barriers or platforms. I thought that as Reading would be nearly all FGW anyway, (what with XC not doing station staff anywhere), it would be unlikely that the small proportion of SWT moves would justify any staff, and therefore it would stay FGW by default?

 

[willc789]

Surely there's no way of packing more seating into the HSTs is there (save converting buffets or 1st class)? Maybe another couple of seats but surely not worth the cost for a few years of use.

I'd hazard a guess at them turning the buffet car round and replacing the first class seating with standard high density ones, so the counter remains a barrier between standard and first class. Perhaps a minimal outlay for a reasonable gain in capacity.

 

[LexyBoy]

I'd hazard a guess at them turning the buffet car round and replacing the first class seating with standard high density ones, so the counter remains a barrier between standard and first class. Perhaps a minimal outlay for a reasonable gain in capacity.

Of course, that would make a lot of sense. That would perhaps also placate the "scrap first class" brigade. Speaking of which, there was a great letter in the local paper recently moaning that there are "often four carriages of first class" (only ever 2 or 2.5) and that on the Turbos "FGW have removed the tables and crammed seats too close" (not changed since NSE days)...

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely FGW have better ways to waste money don't they?

Hadn't you heard? The DfT have confidently predicted that smartcards are the saviour of all things railway ticketing related and must be pursued at all costs!

I'd hazard a guess at them turning the buffet car round and replacing the first class seating with standard high density ones, so the counter remains a barrier between standard and first class. Perhaps a minimal outlay for a reasonable gain in capacity.

Of course, that would make a lot of sense. That would perhaps also placate the "scrap first class" brigade.

That would bring them in line with East Coast IC225s which have a standard class buffet between first and standard. Though on those the buffet counter is next to the standard class seats, if this goes ahead without rebuilding the buffet the counter will be next to first class rather than standard which is less than ideal as you'd have first class hosts (carrying food/drinks etc) mingling with people trying to get to the buffet counter!

 

[willc789]

Of course, that would make a lot of sense. That would perhaps also placate the "scrap first class" brigade. Speaking of which, there was a great letter in the local paper recently moaning that there are "often four carriages of first class" (only ever 2 or 2.5) and that on the Turbos "FGW have removed the tables and crammed seats too close" (not changed since NSE days)...

FGW Twitter account does make for some amusing reading at times with the number of complaints. How they hold their tongue I dont know!!

 

[SkinnyDave]

There is a lad on working for FGW on twitter feed he is called Ollie I think, he is a credit to that organisation!

 

[willc789]

There is a lad on working for FGW on twitter feed he is called Ollie I think, he is a credit to that organisation!

Indeed, although I think all of them do a great job, esp when services out of Paddington go up the spout!

 

[jon0844]

Hadn't you heard? The DfT have confidently predicted that smartcards are the saviour of all things railway ticketing related and must be pursued at all costs!

I actually agree that smartcards are the future, but don't have much confidence in the DfT not screwing it up!

 

[HSTEd]

Contactless cards are getting so cheap now you could put a deposit of ten-twenty pence on the "ticket" or something and just print (semi temporarily, like modern ski passes) some basic ticket information on the outside of it and you would still save money compared to the current system.

Thanks to the price of ticket stock.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I actually agree that smartcards are the future, but don't have much confidence in the DfT not screwing it up!

Totally agree. Though I feel that it will probably be a mixture of ITSO and paper. It'll probably take a few years for it to actually catch-on too. Though I have a feeling that taking it up won't really be a choice at some point and it'll be pushed through if uptake is too slow (I'd like to be wrong on this point but we'll see).

Is there actually an appetite for it though? I hear the DaFT banging on how brilliant it is and how Oyster has shown it will be a success but will it really? I believe Oyster works not because of the technology but simply because the fares structure is suitable for it. NR with it's gazillions of combinations is a totally different kettle of fish. I can't see it working without a MASSIVE structural change in the fares system. Not only this but though I work for FGW I do go over SWT and Southern-land. I have never seen anyone use the ITSO readers there at Wokingham or Reigate and such. Ever. Not once. Which makes me wonder, if these companies already have it why does it appear there is little to no uptake? What are the uptake figures? If they are painfully low wouldn't that point to a lack of demand?

I guess this is probably all for a different thread though.

 

[swt_passenger]

SWT's readers are all live, but the cards are only issued on a voluntary trial basis. I think it's likely that no one is seen to use them because generally speaking the only ITSO users are season ticket holders on a couple of trial routes that don't yet include the London zones. So at any individual station you are probably looking at a very small subset of possible passengers

Then given that Wokingham isn't barriered, those few season ticket holders travelling only in the vicinity of the station will have no doubt realised they don't need to touch in and out. In fact what's more to the point, Wokingham may not even be part of the trial...

 

[CC 72100]

I'd hazard a guess at them turning the buffet car round and replacing the first class seating with standard high density ones, so the counter remains a barrier between standard and first class. Perhaps a minimal outlay for a reasonable gain in capacity.

But surely that would lead to an end of the pullman dining, as that uses the first class half of coach F? Unless we're going to have 3 types of HST:

Mini-buffet standard (as current high density)

Full sized buffet standard (buffet switched ends with new Standard seating)

Full sized buffet first (as current low density)