FGW Franchise Extension

[Carlisle]

In more detail, it'll be a new franchise starting in July 2016, so the competition will presumably have to run on similar to normal timescales from about mid 2015 or earlier - especially if they have yet another full round of consultation about what goes in the ITT?

Dates as per DfT's March 2013 franchising plan:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/170565/rail-franchise-schedule.pdf

I can see the money just disappearing down the hole of numerous consultation exercises, due diligence reports,specialist reports,legal reports etc , enough to re furbish a few stations or trains ,suppose its the wonders of the privatisation model we adopted

 

[swt_passenger]

...and that's before some 'concerned citizen' decides there ought to be a judicial review, despite the industry and DfT already being on the same wavelength (such as with Evergreen 3)...

 

[chuckles1066]

...and that's before some 'concerned citizen' decides there ought to be a judicial review, despite the industry and DfT already being on the same wavelength (such as with Evergreen 3)...

Are you posting here, hand on heart, proclaiming that FGW are the best thing that's ever happened to those of us subjected to what it claims is a "service"?

Maybe I was just unlucky with frequent short-formed services allied to a one train per hour "service".

I'm happy to accept that I was just unlucky.....but I suspect not.

 

[The Ham]

Although it's highly likely that they won't; it'd be much more financially beneficial for them to lease them to the new TOC rather than just have them sitting in a siding doing nothing.

(Or they could lease them to someone else, such as XC.)

XC don't make best use of their current set do they?

If it were to come down to First trying to get the best value for their HST's it is a possibility that whoever owns the 5 XC sets would offer them for (say) £1,000 more than XC pay them, but less than First are charging.

Although that would then scupper XC (in that they would have to run all their services by Voyagers and 170's) it could leave First with 5 HST's doing nothing. As XC could have said to First that as the trains would not all be the same that they are not that intrested in all 5 and that they would only take them all if they can can have unlimited use and for only slightly more than they pay currently. As they only have to cope for about 3 and a half years until ICWC is re-leased and they start replacing their Voyagers and/or until the IEP's come along (when there'll be loads of HST's which will not be earning their owners much money).

This could result in the current XC's sets earn their owners a little more money, First don't earn as much as they hoped from their sets and XC can run a whole load more services with HST's and can make more money as they would be able to sell a whole load more tickets (and would have a whole load more seats so people would buy them).

Of course the process could go the other way and the HST sets earn their owners shed loads of money for a few more years and then next to nothing as they start being replaced. Resulting in XC getting rid of their Voyagers and only runing HST's until they get new trains under the new franchise in 2020.

Either way there is a risk to First that their trains that they own aren't as useful in making money as they hoped.

 

[jimm]

Forgive my ignorance in this matter but,

First said they didn't want to take up the option of the extension so they wouldn't have to make a premium payment.

Now DfT go to them cap in hand asking if they will change their mind.

Is this a fair summary?

No. Much as LNW-GW Joint said above.

FGW didn't take up the option of another three years, as was their right under the contract. The DfT then began a bidding process to find a new franchisee, for which First was among the firm's shortlisted. The DfT then made a mess of the West Coast franchising process, as a result of which the GW bidding process was cancelled, along with others.

In order to buy breathing space to sort out the mess, they have gone back to First (just the same as they have done with other incumbent operators of several other franchises that have been extended in recent months, eg Virgin on the West Coast) and asked them to bid for an extension.

This is not DfT saying 'here's some money'. FGW has had to put in a formal bid stating what it will do during the extension, such as better facilities for passengers, premium payments, etc, and is still in negotiations with DfT - given the complexity of the operation, compared with just about every other franchise in this country - from 125mph expresses down to the St Ives branch - that's probably no surprise.

Are you posting here, hand on heart, proclaiming that FGW are the best thing that's ever happened to those of us subjected to what it claims is a "service"?

Maybe I was just unlucky with frequent short-formed services allied to a one train per hour "service".

I'm happy to accept that I was just unlucky.....but I suspect not.

And are you suggesting, as you seem to be, that it would all have been different if First was not the operator? Remember, the saintly bearded one won't ever bid for the GW operation, as it involves London commuter operations and all sorts of other things that running a nice neat and tidy inter-city franchise doesn't involve.

Either way there is a risk to First that their trains that they own aren't as useful in making money as they hoped.

First didn't buy those HSTs with a view to "making money". They bought them because they calculated that it would be cheaper to buy them when a Rosco was willing to sell them than paying the leasing fees they would otherwise have had to if they wanted more 125s. And with the HSTs being needed to run even longer than was expected at the time they were bought, due to the delays to IEP and the decision to electrify the GWML, they will be getting even better value for their money than they first thought.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are you posting here, hand on heart, proclaiming that FGW are the best thing that's ever happened to those of us subjected to what it claims is a "service"?

No, not at all. I'm referring to the time consuming consultation processes in their wider sense, in response to the point made by the previous poster.

But blaming FGW, as you seem to be, for the DfT's rolling stock and timetable policy in the current franchise is pretty much pointless anyway.

 

[thelongestroad]

Are you posting here, hand on heart, proclaiming that FGW are the best thing that's ever happened to those of us subjected to what it claims is a "service"?

And you think that'd be any better under DB, National Express or Stagecoach?

FGW aren't perfect, but under the circumstances credit where credit is due.

 

[HSTEd]

I expect that the new GW franchise competition will be finished and the contract signed by the 4th of May 2015.

 

[455driver]

It's not simply 5x HST sets that Great Western Trains Company Ltd (trading as First Great Western) own outright.

There's 10x Class 43 power cars and 36 Mk3's of varying types:

5x TRFB
3x TF
3x TFD
18x TS
2x TSD
5x TGS

With only two Standard Class disabled carriages owned outright, it would be difficult to put 5 full 7/8 carriage HST sets into service elsewhere in First Group's rail division. A few shorter sets is possible, but I suspect the return on leasing the entire owned outright fleet to a new operator would yield a better return than transferring the rolling stock to another First Group TOC. As others have mentioned, there would be track access charges, route clearance, staff training, maintenance facilities, etc, to be provided for.

FG owned power cars are-
43092, 43093, 43094, 43097, 43098, 43122, 43153, 43154, 43155, 43158, 43194, 43198. (12)
FG owned coaches are-
TRFB 40901-04 (5)
TF 41045,41085, 41086, 41114, 41163 (5)
TFD 41059, 41160, 41162, 41166, 41167 (5)
TS 42093 (volo), 42094, 42095, 42108, 42167, 42168 (volo), 42169, 42175, 42176 (volo), 42177, 42231, 42232 (volo), 42233, 42303 (volo), 42304, 42305. (16 of which 5 are volo fitted).
TSD 42092, 42103, 42105, 42302, 42353. (5)
TGS 44055, 44068, 44074, 44076, 44081, 44100. (6)

So that gives 5 complete sets and 2 spare coaches and 2 spare powercars.
Sets are LA60-LA64 with 42095 spare at Laira and 44100 spare at Bristol PM.

 

[chuckles1066]

And you think that'd be any better under DB, National Express or Stagecoach?

FGW aren't perfect, but under the circumstances credit where credit is due.

I can't imagine a worse service than the one that is currently in operation?

After all, to make a one train an hour service worse can only mean cancelling it?

And I imagine SLA's won't permit any new franchise holder to do that.

Ergo, FGW are just doing the bare minimum........now, call me old-fashioned but that wasn't good enough for me.

Your mileage might vary.

 

[Muzer]

I can't imagine a worse service than the one that is currently in operation?

After all, to make a one train an hour service worse can only mean cancelling it?

And I imagine SLA's won't permit any new franchise holder to do that.

Ergo, FGW are just doing the bare minimum........now, call me old-fashioned but that wasn't good enough for me.

Your mileage might vary.

Moaning about having an hourly service on what I expect is not a big commuter or profit-making line is pretty pathetic. Many places I know have only an hourly service, and many more could only dream of having one.

 

[Flamingo]

Moaning about having an hourly service on what I expect is not a big commuter or profit-making line is pretty pathetic. Many places I know have only an hourly service, and many more could only dream of having one.

Well, I have never seen more than a dozen people board or alight at Patchway, usually it's between zero and six, Filton Abbey Woods and Bristol Parkway are both about a mile from it and have frequent services.

Cuddles blames FGW for everything from the death of Elvis to the invasion of Iraq to an inability to get served in his local. He doesn't seem to realise that if First loses the franchise it'll be the exact same people, working the exact same trains, the only change will be the colour of the uniforms and livery.

 

[Starmill]

Or they could move them to Scotrail, TPE or Hull trains and use the displaced stock to strengthen other services.
Either way the incoming franchisee will be in the sh um up to their eyeballs in it because they will not have enough sets for service never mind maintenance.

HSTs on TPE! It would be worth it for First to try to get 1up on the world by pinching them if we saw that

 

[RPI]

I can't imagine a worse service than the one that is currently in operation?

After all, to make a one train an hour service worse can only mean cancelling it?

And I imagine SLA's won't permit any new franchise holder to do that.

Ergo, FGW are just doing the bare minimum........now, call me old-fashioned but that wasn't good enough for me.

Your mileage might vary.

Bear minimum? What crap, they've gone well above the bear minimum on many routes with no external funding, they are about the only TOC who hasn't slashed ticket office opening hours and have been far more pro active than many other TOC'S in trying to ease overcrowding, no where near perfect but far better than most! You only have to look at the likes of LM and Southeastern to see that FGW ain't really all that bad.

 

[richw]

Fgw have improved services several times over down this end of the line, their staff are always friendly and helpful from my experiences.
I would say they've made the best out of a poor hand they've been dealt regarding tolling stock - not enough available and a very old fleet.

 

[Rapidash]

There's definitely been improvements recently in my part of the woods even compared to a few years ago. I hardly even travel on the Pacers anymore, and when they do appear, they are doubled up. Wish they'd bring back the 158 they had sneaking around, was the best ride down from Exeter I'd had other than the stopper HST.

One thing I really wish FGW would do for us is to add in a fast service up to EXC from PGN, what with SWT chopping it a few years back, its a bloody slow commute at times. Pipe dream I know, with the lack of stock all round.

 

[ess]

So when, exactly, does this franchise extension need to be agreed?

 

[swt_passenger]

So when, exactly, does this franchise extension need to be agreed?

Generally it is shown as 'October 2013'. I can't find anything on DfT's website yet that includes the exact day, but various announcements have said it is 28 weeks from when the last franchise would have finished.

If that is taken as 31 March 2013 (as was originally intended), then 28 weeks is up on 13th October.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One thing I really wish FGW would do for us is to add in a fast service up to EXC from PGN, what with SWT chopping it a few years back, its a bloody slow commute at times. Pipe dream I know, with the lack of stock all round.

The DfT chopped it. FGW were contracted to replace some of the services to whatever extent the DfT required at the time, using additional stock allocated for that purpose.

If that didn't meet your expectations, don't blame SWT or FGW...

 

[anthony263]

First Group I think have been good for the GW franchise and too be honest I hope they retain the franchise especially with all the upgrade work.

FGW's managment have come up with good ways to reduce overcrowding such as taking on 150001 & 150002. We now have the likelyhood of loco hauled trains returning to the Cardiff - Taunton route and a improved service being launched betwen Swindon & Westbury from December.

I am sure if they have more units available FGW would find uses for them such as an improved local service between Bristol & Gloucester as well as an hourly frequency between Great Malvern and Weymouth

 

[richw]

A week or two ago FGW were advertising for station customer service staff for each of the currently manned stations in Cornwall to start in October. Within the advert it stated they were recruiting due to their franchise commitments. I would assume thinking on this that is a term required in their extension

 

[ChiefPlanner]

FGW have added a lot to the franchise - remember they "saved" the sleeper , the 30 min frequency Padd to Cardiff / Swansea all day - and have done a massive refurbishing job on the fleet from the HST's downwards. They came a cropper with the local services in the West due to the DfT "specification" - which caused much deserved angst , and have worked hard to recover that with all sorts of stock shuffles , - add onto this the extra HST trailer conversions, diner services, the generally good "Travelling Chef" and a bucket of co-operation with major projects ......

 

[Eagle]

FGW have added a lot to the franchise - remember they "saved" the sleeper , the 30 min frequency Padd to Cardiff / Swansea all day - and have done a massive refurbishing job on the fleet from the HST's downwards. They came a cropper with the local services in the West due to the DfT "specification" - which caused much deserved angst , and have worked hard to recover that with all sorts of stock shuffles , - add onto this the extra HST trailer conversions, diner services, the generally good "Travelling Chef" and a bucket of co-operation with major projects ......

I think it's probably important to distinguish between FGW pre-2006, the Intercity-only TOC (which was originally known as GWT); and FGW post-2006, the much larger intersectional TOC.

Which of these improvements are down to which incarnation of FGW?

 

[chuckles1066]

Cuddles blames FGW for everything from the death of Elvis to the invasion of Iraq to an inability to get served in his local. He doesn't seem to realise that if First loses the franchise it'll be the exact same people, working the exact same trains, the only change will be the colour of the uniforms and livery.

Sorry if my accurate and truthful observations are a bit too painful for comfortable reading but the beauty of dealing with facts is they're indisputable.

However, a genuine question in respect of your second observation; if nothing service-related is going to change irrespective of whichever outfit runs a given franchise, why go through the pretence of it all?

Is it just window dressing for public consumption? :-?

 

[jimm]

I think it's probably important to distinguish between FGW pre-2006, the Intercity-only TOC (which was originally known as GWT); and FGW post-2006, the much larger intersectional TOC.

Which of these improvements are down to which incarnation of FGW?

Got your dates wrong there. While it was theoretically managed as a separate division until 2006 and called First Great Western Link, the former Thames Trains franchise became part of the FGW operation in April 2004, with 180s taking on Cotswold Line duties that December.

 

[Eagle]

But the Wessex end of it was a completely separate franchise till 2006.

 

[jimm]

But the Wessex end of it was a completely separate franchise till 2006.

And did I say it wasn't? No. But you said nothing about 2004, the point at which the intercity-only version of FGW actually ceased to exist.

 

[Rapidash]

I asked one of the guards about this on Friday, they said that they were in the dark as everyone else. Sounded like a bit of poor communication from on high, but thats the same in all professions, heh.

 

[WatcherZero]

Daily Mail/Mail on Sunday said there was a possibility Great Western could be signed this week.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have split out disscussion of the TSGN ITT to this thread as it seems worthy of it's own rather than getting bogged down in FGW's franchise extension!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Sorry if my accurate and truthful observations are a bit too painful for comfortable reading but the beauty of dealing with facts is they're indisputable.

However, a genuine question in respect of your second observation; if nothing service-related is going to change irrespective of whichever outfit runs a given franchise, why go through the pretence of it all?

Is it just window dressing for public consumption? :-?

If you think FGW is bad, go commute on SWT, Southern or Southeastern. Even then I would argue that most issues are down to factors outside of TOC control.