FGW Franchise Extension

[1e10]

Totally agree. Though I feel that it will probably be a mixture of ITSO and paper. It'll probably take a few years for it to actually catch-on too. Though I have a feeling that taking it up won't really be a choice at some point and it'll be pushed through if uptake is too slow (I'd like to be wrong on this point but we'll see).

Is there actually an appetite for it though? I hear the DaFT banging on how brilliant it is and how Oyster has shown it will be a success but will it really? I believe Oyster works not because of the technology but simply because the fares structure is suitable for it. NR with it's gazillions of combinations is a totally different kettle of fish. I can't see it working without a MASSIVE structural change in the fares system. Not only this but though I work for FGW I do go over SWT and Southern-land. I have never seen anyone use the ITSO readers there at Wokingham or Reigate and such. Ever. Not once. Which makes me wonder, if these companies already have it why does it appear there is little to no uptake? What are the uptake figures? If they are painfully low wouldn't that point to a lack of demand?

I guess this is probably all for a different thread though.

I think there is appetite for it, I would love it if First implemented them on their buses in my area, it would make things so much easier.

Would the system work if all stations has barriers installed and you had to tap in and out of the station, have any Railcard discounts added to the card before-hand and then have fares deducted from a prepaid balance?

 

[swt_passenger]

...then have fares deducted from a prepaid balance?

What sort of minimum value would you suggest for the pre-paid balance then?

Hint - the DfT recently said they want the maximum single fare capped at £250...

 

[1e10]

What sort of minimum value would you suggest for the pre-paid balance then?

Hint - the DfT recently said they want the maximum single fare capped at £250...

£10 or something like that? Would that cause any problems?

 

[HSTEd]

If we add up all the areas that would be suitable for Oysterlike cards..... Merseyrail and the like, what fraction of total rail journeys do we get?

 

[swt_passenger]

£10 or something like that? Would that cause any problems?

So how far do you want to be able travel?

 

[1e10]

So how far do you want to be able travel?

As far as possible on any service? Obviously if travelling far then more than £10 will be needed. I thought you were asking about a minimum topup for the card.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I can't see top-up card being successful strangely. It might work, but NR tickets are not like LU tickets. Based on average takings day to day my average swings from £3 per ticket on branch line to £10 + elsewhere. If I'm say buying a couple of travelcards and maybe a return to somewhere else I wouldn't want to have to research the cost of each ticket, work out the probable cost (you could be wrong), topping up for said amount or more to cover mistakes and then purchase said ticket. You may as well just go to the ticket office.

Personally I feel that for seasons it'll be practical and that. I think that daily tickets have got a fair way to go though. An on-line system of buy and load at the station seems like an option to me. Then again people will still get confused about options and routes and will still require assistance etc. Again, this comes down to the fares structure. I can't see it being the success the DaFT want with the removal of many ticket offices and removal of staff (lets be honest, anyone who claims that no staff will lose their jobs is telling porkies. One of the main aims IS the reduction of staff and costs) without significant overhaul of the system. Until then it will be a mess. 2020 I reckon before they iron it all out. Possibly.

 

[BestWestern]

Surely there's no way of packing more seating into the HSTs is there (save converting buffets or 1st class)? Maybe another couple of seats but surely not worth the cost for a few years of use.

I'd hazard a guess at them turning the buffet car round and replacing the first class seating with standard high density ones, so the counter remains a barrier between standard and first class. Perhaps a minimal outlay for a reasonable gain in capacity.

There is mention of a plan to simply convert a first class coach from every set into to standard. That will leave a single first coach on the mini buffet sets, or a coach and a half on a large buffet, with a full extra coach of standard class seating on every set. Buffets would remain facing the same way, but presumably moved from F to G, with F becoming a fully seated standard coach.

 

[richw]

There is mention of a plan to simply convert a first class coach from every set into to standard. That will leave a single first coach on the mini buffet sets, or a coach and a half on a large buffet, with a full extra coach of standard class seating on every set. Buffets would remain facing the same way, but presumably moved from F to G, with F becoming a fully seated standard coach.

This seems a regular rant on Twitter that First class is empty and standard overflowing. I have no personal experience to go by, but if the Tweets are correct this seems a good move.

 

[Captain Chaos]

To be fair most people complain that First Class is empty or it's a waste of space etc even when well loaded. Most if not all of my complaints about it seem to come from people who I have had to ask to leave due to not having a first class ticket. Odd that...

 

[Bishopstone]

There is mention of a plan to simply convert a first class coach from every set into to standard. That will leave a single first coach on the mini buffet sets, or a coach and a half on a large buffet, with a full extra coach of standard class seating on every set. Buffets would remain facing the same way, but presumably moved from F to G, with F becoming a fully seated standard coach.

Would that lead to capacity (lack of) issues in First Class on some services? It's not my patch, but on occasional trips to the West Country I've noticed fGW long distance services to be quite well loaded in First Class.

Then again, I suppose most of the off-peak folk in First are on Advance tickets, so the solution might simply be to offer fewer Advances - and/or bump up the prices - to dampen demand. First Class seasons are not price regulated, so there's a market solution to any capacity issues there, too.

 

[swt_passenger]

As far as possible on any service? Obviously if travelling far then more than £10 will be needed. I thought you were asking about a minimum topup for the card.

I think you must not realise how PAYG works on TfL's Oyster.

1. You touch in and they basically deduct the maximum possible fare from your balance, because at that stage they don't know where you are going yet.

2. When you get to your destination, they work out how much the journey actually cost, and then refund the difference to your balance.

No one can convince me that you can easily translate that methodology into a 'go-anywhere' system on NR, yet people keep proposing it. If you say that it would work in a tightly defined area, then that's OK, but it is moving the goalposts compared to your earlier proposal in post #120.

 

[Eagle]

1. You touch in and they basically deduct the maximum possible fare from your balance, because at that stage they don't know where you are going yet.

2. When you get to your destination, they work out how much the journey actually cost, and then refund the difference to your balance.

Or

2a. You fail to touch out and the maximum fare stays deducted.

Obviously this maximum fare has to be larger than any PAYG fare, otherwise people will just not touch out when making a journey that costs more than the maximum fare.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Can you imagine having to put on enough money to cover for the most expensive Single journey possible to enable it to work just to do a local journey in STD class? It's unthinkable! Really cannot see that happening.

 

[BestWestern]

There is mention of a plan to simply convert a first class coach from every set into to standard. That will leave a single first coach on the mini buffet sets, or a coach and a half on a large buffet, with a full extra coach of standard class seating on every set. Buffets would remain facing the same way, but presumably moved from F to G, with F becoming a fully seated standard coach.

Would that lead to capacity (lack of) issues in First Class on some services? It's not my patch, but on occasional trips to the West Country I've noticed fGW long distance services to be quite well loaded in First Class.

Then again, I suppose most of the off-peak folk in First are on Advance tickets, so the solution might simply be to offer fewer Advances - and/or bump up the prices - to dampen demand. First Class seasons are not price regulated, so there's a market solution to any capacity issues there, too.

Indeed. On many/most non high peak services much of first is occupied by Advance ticket holders, and of course at weekends the majority are travelling on standard+upgrade. There are some journeys where a single coach may struggle to cope, but I would say not a huge number. Careful use of the big buffet sets, with their extra half coach of first accomodation, would obviously help.

 

[1e10]

I think you must not realise how PAYG works on TfL's Oyster.

1. You touch in and they basically deduct the maximum possible fare from your balance, because at that stage they don't know where you are going yet.

2. When you get to your destination, they work out how much the journey actually cost, and then refund the difference to your balance.

No one can convince me that you can easily translate that methodology into a 'go-anywhere' system on NR, yet people keep proposing it. If you say that it would work in a tightly defined area, then that's OK, but it is moving the goalposts compared to your earlier proposal in post #120.

Sorry, I've never used an Oyster Card and was merely making a suggestion from the top of my head.

Now you've explained it to me it does seem best to stay with tickets. Tickets are nice too, I keep all my tickets (unless someone takes them on my exit) in a collection.

Thanks for the explanation

 

[JamesRowden]

I doubt that PAYG will work well on the railway. But a website could be setup to act as an interface between a person's smart card and purchased train tickets. One would purchase train tickets on the website, and then select which ticket they wan their smart card to become. The person could access the website whilst on the move via a mobile phone, tablet computer or laptop. If free wi-fi (with a capped data speed for each user) is provided at all stations then there should not be network connection problems. The website could provide even more information about ones ticket validity than can be printed on a ticket at present.

 

[Goatboy]

There is mention of a plan to simply convert a first class coach from every set into to standard. That will leave a single first coach on the mini buffet sets, or a coach and a half on a large buffet, with a full extra coach of standard class seating on every set. Buffets would remain facing the same way, but presumably moved from F to G, with F becoming a fully seated standard coach.

Ouch - I do hope not. First is very busy every time I use it on long distance trips so the only possible way they could make it work is by significantly reducing Advance availability and the walk-on First Class fare does not justify the service offered, so that'd be that for me!

 

[455driver]

Ouch - I do hope not. First is very busy every time I use it on long distance trips so the only possible way they could make it work is by significantly reducing Advance availability and the walk-on First Class fare does not justify the service offered, so that'd be that for me!

Which would work perfectly for the TOC

The 'proper' 1st class passengers would continue as now, the advance 1st passengers would use standard class.

The coach would be reseated from 48 1st class seats to 80 standard class seats, effectively increasing the seating capacity of the whole set by 32 (80 standard minus 48 1st), the exAdvanced 1st making up the 48 leaving the 32 for new passengers.

Apologies for using 'proper' 1st and advanced 1st above, I couldnt think how else to word it.

 

[bnm]

There is mention of a plan to simply convert a first class coach from every set into to standard. That will leave a single first coach on the mini buffet sets, or a coach and a half on a large buffet, with a full extra coach of standard class seating on every set. Buffets would remain facing the same way, but presumably moved from F to G, with F becoming a fully seated standard coach.

Any scope for refurbishing some of the last remaining off lease Mk3s up to fully seated Standard class coaches? There's still a fair few Mk3 stored at Long Marston. A handful of Standard Class Mk3s and a fair few First Opens and Buffets of one type or another.

The concept for converting buffets has been proved already by FGW who converted fifteen of them to 84 seat Standard Class coaches in 2012-2013. For those 15, they obviously picked the best of the stored examples and it maybe that other stored Mk3s may not be in as good a condition and will require more expense to bring them back into service.

However, if there is scope to refurbish more stored Mk3s then it may be possible for FGW to run 2+9 sets.

 

[Flamingo]

In my experience, on busier trains, First and Std will be occupied to approx the same %. Quieter trains, it doesn't matter if First is empty as there will be plenty of spare seats in Std.

As I have posted Ad Nauseam, the people who complain First is empty and STD "like Auschwitz" (to quote one male on a train a few weeks ago) are by and large commuters to/from Reading won't walk down the platform or through the train to get an empty seat. (That train, by the way, had over 110 empty seats in STD).

FGW doesn't help itself at weekends by selling I suspect the full reservable capicity in STD as Advance tickets, leaving in effect one carriage for walk-up ticket holders, and the daytime Sunday service should be closer to the weekday service, but due to staffing and capicity issues around weekend engineering works that is not going to happen.


Personally, I think that turning coach F around, getting rid of the standing area at the end of the bar & putting a few 1st class seats there, sticking STD class airline seats into the First Class area, making Coach H the quiet carriage, so the top half of coach G can be utilised as a restaurant area, and making the area along the bar a "no standing" area (on ALL buffets) so people can walk past and actually get to the bar, would be the way to go.

But I only work on the trains, so what do I know - our opinion will not be looked for, is the one thing I can guarentee!

 

[jon0844]

People who work on the trains are the people who should be consulted first. Of course there are other factors to consider too, but any plans would need to be discussed with train managers to have any chance of working properly.

I bet you can provide as much useful information as any externally sourced passenger survey.

 

[Lankyline]

Apologies if i've already missed a posting about this, but it has been announced that FGW will keep their franchise for another two years, part of that deal will mean that the Night Riviera will be getting 2 extra coaches, new maintenance facilities at long Rock and bringing forward the signalling upgrades between Penzance & Plymouth

 

[swt_passenger]

Apologies if i've already missed a posting about this, but it has been announced that FGW will keep their franchise for another two years...

That basic news was posted about four pages ago, in post #81, as a quick glance back would have shown.

The resignalling stuff hadn't been mentioned yet, but it could be just spin anyway, because last years abandoned ITT already mentioned resignalling being 'accelerated', but only to 2017 or thereabouts...

The DfT's press release is well padded with things that won't happen until the next franchise as is usual with these things...

 

[HowardGWR]

As I have posted Ad Nauseam, the people who complain First is empty and STD "like Auschwitz" (to quote one male on a train a few weeks ago) are by and large commuters to/from Reading won't walk down the platform or through the train to get an empty seat. (That train, by the way, had over 110 empty seats in STD).

Are announcements made to inform pax that there are seats further up? It seems to me that, in the case quoted, this could have possibly prevented the admittedly stupid comments from the male passenger.

Could these announcements not be standard on peak services to Reading? I know they had an 'announcement purge' but this one just seems sensible.

Are you not encouraged to feed back (even the old GWR (and BR) had suggestion boxes)?

I am interested in your reply even if your managers are not, so thanks in advance.

 

[jon0844]

To be fair to management, they might not wish to ask staff to give feedback because some people might get upset and say it's not part of their job.

But, if Flamingo offered his services to them and said he could provide some detail of how trains are used at various times of the day, I'm sure his input would be invaluable. Most people only see what a train is like from their seat, or carriage.

 

[Flamingo]

Are announcements made to inform pax that there are seats further up? It seems to me that, in the case quoted, this could have possibly prevented the admittedly stupid comments from the male passenger.

Could these announcements not be standard on peak services to Reading? I know they had an 'announcement purge' but this one just seems sensible.

Are you not encouraged to feed back (even the old GWR (and BR) had suggestion boxes)?

I am interested in your reply even if your managers are not, so thanks in advance.

I had made three announcements on that train, I always do, saying where the seats are, and how many. I am occasionally accused of lying.

 

[jon0844]

Ask them to prove you're lying!!

 

[starrymarkb]

I presume the Dutch OV-Chipkaart would be what you are thinking, I understand you pay a boarding fee then a fixed rate per KM. But the Netherlands is much smaller then the UK so it's not as practical to have such a system here... and the Dutch have had a LOT of Problems with it!

 

[Zoe]

In my experience, on busier trains, First and Std will be occupied to approx the same %. Quieter trains, it doesn't matter if First is empty as there will be plenty of spare seats in Std.

When are these quieter periods? The London - Westcontry trains I have been on (all off peak during the week) have had almost every seat in Standard reserved (except for coach E).