FCC Drivers - no Sunday working

[Gricerjo]

I fear for the long term future of drivers. If you look at the McNulty report, it identifies the increasing wage bill for train drivers T+Cs (along with Network Rail’s excessive costs) as a reason why the cost of running railways in this country is much higher than those in western Europe. With Boris looking to driverless trains on the underground (it woorks perfectly well on the DLR) it can only be a matter of time before it happens on the surface rail network.

Sadly, and I say this as a former union man, within the next 10 to 15 years, I see train drivers going the same way as dockers, miners and printers.

 

[O L Leigh]

I fear for the long term future of drivers. If you look at the McNulty report, it identifies the increasing wage bill for train drivers T+Cs (along with Network Rail’s excessive costs) as a reason why the cost of running railways in this country is much higher than those in western Europe. With Boris looking to driverless trains on the underground (it woorks perfectly well on the DLR) it can only be a matter of time before it happens on the surface rail network.

Sadly, and I say this as a former union man, within the next 10 to 15 years, I see train drivers going the same way as dockers, miners and printers.

We are a very long way from having driverless trains, as has been discussed on a parallel thread.

O L Leigh

 

[A-driver]

I fear for the long term future of drivers. If you look at the McNulty report, it identifies the increasing wage bill for train drivers T+Cs (along with Network Rail’s excessive costs) as a reason why the cost of running railways in this country is much higher than those in western Europe. With Boris looking to driverless trains on the underground (it woorks perfectly well on the DLR) it can only be a matter of time before it happens on the surface rail network.

Sadly, and I say this as a former union man, within the next 10 to 15 years, I see train drivers going the same way as dockers, miners and printers.

I think that's more fantasy than anything. I don't have many fears for the future of the job, not in our lifetimes anyway. Looking properly at it, and not as Mcnulty or the press, you will see that drivers arnt as expensive as we are portrayed and eroding pay and conditions will work out more expensive in all.

 

[Carlisle]

With reference to some of the comments saying that other TOC's/FOC's could step in & help out. Most companies have a policy where you can only route conduct if you actually sign the traction. Also, it is not as easy as it sounds just to hire in other drivers to cover when short, agreements have to be negotiated with the unions & it is frowned upon if another company was to help out thus eliminating overtime for the existing employees.
Going back to an ealier comment I made regarding Rest Day Working, how come companies that don't have a problem retaining staff eg. Virgin, are still working their Rest Days? I feel it should be up to the individual to work or not & ASLEF should keep their noses out.

That's interesting ,as I said earlier I thought virgin used DBS drivers as conductors on the chiltern line on voyagers in the recent past which I presume they did not sign

 

[TUC]

I do think that we'll probably see various problems with Sunday operation on some TOCs in the run up to Christmas. Usually there are enough people to volunteer, but at certain times that doesn't happen because too many people want to be off.

FCC rarely, if ever, admits this as the problem.

But wouldn't FCC know by now, as I presume people still have to volunteer (or not) a reasonable time in advance?

Only the rail industry has such antiquated arrangements for such a thing to be a problem.

 

[notadriver]

Only the rail industry has such antiquated arrangements for such a thing to be a problem.

No it can happen on buses and coaches too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I fear for the long term future of drivers. If you look at the McNulty report, it identifies the increasing wage bill for train drivers T+Cs (along with Network Rail’s excessive costs) as a reason why the cost of running railways in this country is much higher than those in western Europe. With Boris looking to driverless trains on the underground (it woorks perfectly well on the DLR) it can only be a matter of time before it happens on the surface rail network.

Sadly, and I say this as a former union man, within the next 10 to 15 years, I see train drivers going the same way as dockers, miners and printers.

I don't fear at all. Train drivers wages in countries such as France and Holland are broadly similar with the UK. The only thing I fear is the green eyed jealousy from people over train drivers pay and conditions

 

[CockneySparrow]

Overtime is not pensionable!

oh right, that explains a little then, most normal companies pay a % of your earnings such a 3% or 5% depending on service, this % is based on your gross pay line

Guess FCC aren't a normal company then

 

[A-driver]

oh right, that explains a little then, most normal companies pay a % of your earnings such a 3% or 5% depending on service, this % is based on your gross pay line

Guess FCC aren't a normal company then

It's the same in the entire rail industry. You are only 'pensioned' on your actual salary. Not on any extra pay. Under BR drivers had a lower pensionable salary but had lots of extra enhancements-mileage, DOO, weekend, nights etc etc.

After privatisation ASLEF negotiated to sell all those extras to increase the pensionable salary.

 

[Carlisle]

Well you did mention "top shareholders" attempting to differentiate between them and ordinary shareholders. Most of the biggest are probably corporate entities and not individuals.

From what has transpired during the discussion I now understand a little more why the companies operate the way they do with regard to Sunday working.
Were you about in BR Days ?

Did they do the same with regard to Sundays ?

From memory in BR days most Drivers,Guards and onboard staff ,Station and Ground staff were rostered in a similar way as mentioned above with Sundays as OT most other grades did not

 

[BigBird47537]

That's interesting ,as I said earlier I thought virgin used DBS drivers as conductors on the chiltern line on voyagers in the recent past which I presume they did not sign

Not all companies have the same policies. Virgin seem to be more proffesional when it comes to running trains & they are not scared of using commom sense. Northern certainly wont use other drivers if they don't sign the traction. Virgin make more of an effort as Northern just keep using the excuse of the franchise was let on a no growth basis which seems to be an excuse for everything.

 

[455driver]

Not all companies have the same policies. Virgin seem to be more proffesional when it comes to running trains & they are not scared of using commom sense. Northern certainly wont use other drivers if they don't sign the traction. Virgin make more of an effort as Northern just keep using the excuse of the franchise was let on a no growth basis which seems to be an excuse for everything.

You are inferring that Virgin will use drivers that dont sign the traction (hence your common sense line) which would be rather naughty.

Can you give examples of when Virgin have used hired in staff please.

 

[A-driver]

Not all companies have the same policies. Virgin seem to be more proffesional when it comes to running trains & they are not scared of using commom sense. Northern certainly wont use other drivers if they don't sign the traction. Virgin make more of an effort as Northern just keep using the excuse of the franchise was let on a no growth basis which seems to be an excuse for everything.

Completely different to what is being discussed here. Virgin may use conductors for diversionary routes. East coast send drivers out road learning instead for the same thing but it's due to planned diversions, not a temporary staff shortage.

Plus, if FCC don't have enough drivers to cover the service then what makes anyone think that GA or DB would have enough spare? And as for conducting FCC drivers with traction knowledge, what services do you cancel elsewhere to take those drivers off their booked jobs and onto the Lynn shuttles?

 

[Carlisle]

Mainly because bus drivers are cheaper to train than train drivers, and outside agencies can easily train up bus drivers as anyone can buy a bus and drive it on the road. Only TOCs can train up train drivers as you need access to mainline trains and railways to do so.

Agreed ,I don't think Mr Majors lot thought any of this through properly ,apart from their steadfast conviction that replacing a large public monopoly with a group of smaller private ones was going to magically improve service delivery and lower costs

 

[D1009]

The point has been made on here that not having Sunday as part of the working week is significantly cheaper for the TOC than otherwise. If that is the case why is Sunday part of the working week on some TOCs, SWT for example?

 

[A-driver]

The point has been made on here that not having Sunday as part of the working week is significantly cheaper for the TOC than otherwise. If that is the case why is Sunday part of the working week on some TOCs, SWT for example?

It all comes down to pay deals really. Different operators do things differently. Some companies have a 'true' 4 day week where you work 4 in 7 days, other companies have a 4 in 6 day week but have compulsory Sundays paid as overtime, others have Sundays completely seperate.

Look at any industry-different companies within the same industry will have their own policies for these kind of things.

 

[Butts]

It all comes down to pay deals really. Different operators do things differently. Some companies have a 'true' 4 day week where you work 4 in 7 days, other companies have a 4 in 6 day week but have compulsory Sundays paid as overtime, others have Sundays completely seperate.

Look at any industry-different companies within the same industry will have their own policies for these kind of things.

Which is the cheapest version of the three ?

 

[455driver]

Sundays outside but compulsory.

The TOCs cannot just change the employment contracts so dont even bother mentioning it.

 

[Andrewlong]

Sundays outside but compulsory.

The TOCs cannot just change the employment contracts so dont even bother mentioning it.

But presumably they could offer you all sorts of goodies in order for you to sign a new employment contract.

 

[BigBird47537]

You are inferring that Virgin will use drivers that dont sign the traction (hence your common sense line) which would be rather naughty.

Can you give examples of when Virgin have used hired in staff please.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't inferring that Virgin use drivers who don't sign the traction to drive the train, I was quoting an earlier quote by "Carlisle" that Virgin had hired DBS drivers to route conduct who didn't sign the traction as some companies allow this but others insist that the conductor driver must sign the traction.
The reference to common sense was that for years drivers have route conducted other drivers without signing the traction but since privatisation some companies seem to think the practice is now unsafe.

 

[Butts]

Sundays outside but compulsory.

The TOCs cannot just change the employment contracts so dont even bother mentioning it.

Can they not vary your terms and conditions of employment by giving the appropriate period of notice (normally based on length of service).

 

[notadriver]

Any change has to be agreed by the unions. This also applies to the route conducting issue.

 

[A-driver]

Can they not vary your terms and conditions of employment by giving the appropriate period of notice (normally based on length of service).

Not without the workforce agreeing to the change. And there is little desire to change it as it's rarely an issue.

FCC used to have compulsory Sundays, management have it up during pay talks.

 

[Carlisle]

Not without the workforce agreeing to the change. And there is little desire to change it as it's rarely an issue.

FCC used to have compulsory Sundays, management have it up during pay talks.

Oh right so in BR days Sundays used to be cumpulsory OT ,it's such a while back I had forgotten

 

[Butts]

Any change has to be agreed by the unions. This also applies to the route conducting issue.

Surely the contract is between the Employer and the Employee ?

If the Company follows the correct procedures what can the Union do about it?

 

[Llanigraham]

The Company has to negotiate with the Employee, but since they can't do that with each one individually the Union takes on the collective responsibility to represent them.

Your suggestion seems to be that the Employer rules by dictat! Thankfully that is illegal.

 

[A-driver]

The Company has to negotiate with the Employee, but since they can't do that with each one individually the Union takes on the collective responsibility to represent them.

Your suggestion seems to be that the Employer rules by dictat! Thankfully that is illegal.

Indeed. I know people think that unions are OTT and hold companies to ransom but the reality is that rail companies would love us to work like slaves. It guess both ways really, the unions objective is to have us working as little as possible whilst getting us paid as much as possible whilst the company wants us working as hard as possible whilst paying as little as possible. Through negotiation we get a happy medium.

 

[455driver]

Through negotiation we get a happy medium.

Which is proven by how much admiration we are held in by people on forums like this one!

 

[Butts]

The Company has to negotiate with the Employee, but since they can't do that with each one individually the Union takes on the collective responsibility to represent them.

Your suggestion seems to be that the Employer rules by dictat! Thankfully that is illegal.

Is it a closed shop - ie are all drivers union members ?

By the way how do companies manage to negotiate in the absence of Unions ? - not individually by any chance !!

 

[notadriver]

Is it a closed shop - ie are all drivers union members ?

By the way how do companies manage to negotiate in the absence of Unions ? - not individually by any chance !!

Yes individually Butts. For example when I drive a coach for a local company my 'individual' negotiated rate of pay is a £60 day rate. (Everyone else gets the same apparently) If I was at work for 12 hours this is less than the minimum wage but is legal as it's a day rate 'negotiated' between employer and employee. Unlike bus drivers I'm required to get my hands dirty and fuel the vehicle as well as clean it by hand with a hose pipe outside and mop/sweep the inside getting on my hands and knees to pick up any little bits of litter on the floor!!!!

 

[CockneySparrow]

Shortage of drivers again today but not on the same scale as last week though, got a feeling this is going to be an ongoing erratic service on a Sunday in weeks to come

It looks like it doesn't stop there either as there are no guards on the trains between Cambridge and Kings Lynn on a Sunday in recent weeks although the gates are shut in the morning at Lynn with two guards manning them but come 4pm they are open, also the boss closes her ticket booth around 4pm

I have just got this feeling that something is going on at FCC