FCC Drivers - no Sunday working

[Carlisle]

May be wrong but I can't think of any other industry where the union has the power to sanction overtime unless they declare some sort of 'work to rule ' in the jobs I have had both railway and non railway it has always been up to the employee and their boss weather he or she wishes to do overtime

 

[A-driver]

May be wrong but I can't think of any other industry where the union has the power to sanction overtime unless they declare some sort of 'work to rule ' in the jobs I have had both railway and non railway it has always been up to the employee and their boss weather he or she wishes to do overtime

Rail unions don't sanction overtime either-they agree deals with companies regarding overtime but they can't stop people working O/T.

 

[Carlisle]

Cheers for clearing that one up , if the places I have worked is anything to go by you always get a total difference in attitude to OT ,some want zero and despise even the thought whilst at the other end some practically want to live at work

 

[W230]

But wouldn't FCC know by now, as I presume people still have to volunteer (or not) a reasonable time in advance?

On the TL side we have to give at least a weeks notice that we're not working a Sunday. I assume GN is similar.

As already mentioned by A-driver a lot of King's Lynn drivers were unavailable at short notice and only they and Cambridge drivers sign the route. I expect everything will be back to normal next Sunday though.

 

[asylumxl]

It wasn't a strike - a strike is very different and involves withdrawing labour. No labour was withdrawn back then-everyone came in on days they were rostered to work and did the full job without argument. It is just that few drivers volunteered to come into work on their days off. It wasn't even really a 'work to rule',just a case of no volunteers for overtime.

i know it wasn't a strike, that's why it was placed between quotation marks .

 

[A-driver]

On the TL side we have to give at least a weeks notice that we're not working a Sunday. I assume GN is similar.

As already mentioned by A-driver a lot of King's Lynn drivers were unavailable at short notice and only they and Cambridge drivers sign the route. I expect everything will be back to normal next Sunday though.

On the GN the Sunday availability sheets are collected on a Tuesday for that Sunday so you need to let them know by then if you are unavailable or looking for an extra Sunday.

 

[306024]

Diagramming has been this way for a while in places, it's ok having minimum passing times and PNB times if you can guarantee 100% right time running all day every day. In the end it costs more than what they reckon it will save through the disruption and delays.

I wonder if the people who made up these diagrams and rosters actually had to work them themselves they may not be so keen on them and see the effects they have on those that do

We wonder what drivers would make of diagramming for a living too

Seriously though (for once), getting the balance right between productivity and performance is not easy. Just now the processing power of computers is changing the whole way train crew diagrams are being produced. The computer can process thousands of options in seconds, way beyond the capability of any human.

The see-saw is currently tipped towards productivity, but as has been said, too tight diagrams are counter-productive in even minor disruption. However as soon as directors get a sniff of potential train crew savings, you have a very difficult job to argue that performance is more important.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Also, DB won't sign the route for passenger work-they may trundle up there with a 60mph freight train but put them in the chair of a 90mph passenger unit and ask them to stop in the platform and you have a problem! Plus they would need to be trained in DOO rules and regs.

If any of the Schenker drivers weren't working on a Sunday and needed the money I am sure they would do a few hours however there is a big difference between driving a 66 to a 365 so some form of training would be necessary, personally dont think they would over run the platforms more likely drop short which would only be an issue at Watlington, Littleport and Waterbeach, they stop at DOW, LTP and Ely in the 66 everyday but science says that you touch the brakes on 365 it won't stop at the same place as it would on a 66

The other issue would be as you say DOO regs and some sort of intensive training on how to deal with the public in several emergency situations/scenarios

 

[Butts]

I hope none of the drivers choose to go anywhere on their day off and turn up only to find it is closed "due to no staff prepared to work overtime" :cry:

What a shambles....why don't they have "Agency Drivers"

Spanish Customs or what - why don't they put them on a "five days out of seven" contract that most normal 7 Day Operations use. This would solve the problem overnight.

 

[PHILIPE]

If Sundays were built into the working week, it would cost more drivers so this is resisted by TOCs on cost grounds.

 

[Butts]

If Sundays were built into the working week, it would cost more drivers so this is resisted by TOCs on cost grounds.

Why should it cost any more ?

If you work any five days out of seven they are all paid at the same rate

 

[notadriver]

I hope none of the drivers choose to go anywhere on their day off and turn up only to find it is closed "due to no staff prepared to work overtime" :cry:

What a shambles....why don't they have "Agency Drivers"

Spanish Customs or what - why don't they put them on a "five days out of seven" contract that most normal 7 Day Operations use. This would solve the problem overnight.

I agree with the agency drivers idea. Sack all the present drivers and get a new lot trained up. It's easy to drive a train pushing and pulling a lever. Green go and red stop. Shouldn't take long. Oh and pay the new lot half what drivers were getting.

 

[Tomnick]

I hope none of the drivers choose to go anywhere on their day off and turn up only to find it is closed "due to no staff prepared to work overtime" :cry:

What a shambles....why don't they have "Agency Drivers"

Spanish Customs or what - why don't they put them on a "five days out of seven" contract that most normal 7 Day Operations use. This would solve the problem overnight.

Are you trying to suggest that drivers should be forced to work overtime and must never be allowed a day off if there's work uncovered?

 

[Butts]

I agree with the agency drivers idea. Sack the all the present drivers and get a new lot trained up. It's easy to drive a train pushing and pulling a lever. Green go and red stop. Shouldn't take long. Oh and pay the new lot half what drivers were getting.

I wouldn't go that far, but I believe if the reasons for the change were explained properly and the appropriate notice given they would get very little public sympathy if they went on strike.

They are already pretty well paid and at a time of high unemployment and many people on much lower salaries getting no raise at all their defence would be morally reprehensible from a public perspective.

Working any five days out of seven is commonplace in many industries today.
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Are you trying to suggest that drivers should be forced to work overtime and must never be allowed a day off if there's work uncovered?

"Five days out of seven" :roll:

 

[Tomnick]

The reference to drivers being unable to travel on their days off confused me somewhat: it seemed as though you were suggesting it would be their own fault for daring not to work their rest day. A few TOCs already have Sundays inside the working week (not necessarily '5 in 7' though?), so it clearly works if the will's there!

 

[A-driver]

The reference to drivers being unable to travel on their days off confused me somewhat: it seemed as though you were suggesting it would be their own fault for daring not to work their rest day. A few TOCs already have Sundays inside the working week (not necessarily '5 in 7' though?), so it clearly works if the will's there!

The unions would love to have Sundays in the week. The TOCs are against it as it costs more in drivers. Simple maths-at FCC we work 4 in 6 days. They either pay us more in salary to work 5 in 7 or employ more drivers to keep it 4 in 7.

 

[Butts]

The reference to drivers being unable to travel on their days off confused me somewhat: it seemed as though you were suggesting it would be their own fault for daring not to work their rest day. A few TOCs already have Sundays inside the working week (not necessarily '5 in 7' though?), so it clearly works if the will's there!

No worries, in this day and age on a seven day a week service it's almost unbelievable these contracts have not been introduced across the board.

If you need people seven days per week flexible contracts are a basic tenet of any successful operation.

The old Monday to Friday with Saturday and Sundays off is a no no in the service sector - unless you employ people part-time just to do weekends.
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The unions would love to have Sundays in the week. The TOCs are against it as it costs more in drivers. Simple maths-at FCC we work 4 in 6 days. They either pay us more in salary to work 5 in 7 or employ more drivers to keep it 4 in 7.

Four in six when you operate a seven day a week service - what nonsense. So you only work a four day week (without overtime) can't be bad

Is it not cheaper to hire more drivers than keep paying out overtime ? and put everyone on a 4/7.

 

[notadriver]

Butts a good example of flexible contracts a company I know that does rail replacement at weekends. It's drivers are all casual or self employed and because they are paid just under £8 an hour they are willing to work 6+ days a week 15 hours a day (duty time) to make ends meet. It's a wonderful system.

Hiring drivers is an expensive option as it costs £100k just to train them up and it takes a year.

 

[PHILIPE]

Why should it cost any more ?

If you work any five days out of seven they are all paid at the same rate

Because there would be more hours that needed to be worked within the working weekand you can't just increase their rostered hours.

 

[Butts]

Because there would be more hours that needed to be worked within the working weekand you can't just increase their rostered hours.

Surely you know how many hours are needed to operate the system under normal circumstances.

This figure is divided by the normal contracted hours of a driver to establish how many drivers you need with an allowance made for sickness and leave.

You then roster those drivers over a seven day week to operate the service and eliminate most of the overtime payments.

 

[notadriver]

Then there aren't enough drivers.

 

[Butts]

Then there aren't enough drivers.

Well if you run a shop and have not got enough staff what do you do ?

Recruit some more

 

[notadriver]

Well if you run a shop and have not got enough staff what do you do ?

Recruit some more

Yes but it's easy to recruit shop staff. Training times are very short and costs very little.

 

[Butts]

Yes but it's easy to recruit shop staff. Training times are very short and costs very little.

Where there's a will there's a way

What about multitasking where they could train up existing staff to drive trains (guards or anyone else suitable) and then utilise them as and when required with an additional payment being made when employed on driving duties.

 

[A-driver]

Where there's a will there's a way

What about multitasking where they could train up existing staff to drive trains (guards or anyone else suitable) and then utilise them as and when required with an additional payment being made when employed on driving duties.

It's been considered but not possible to implement. If you hold a driving competency you need to regularly drive, just like managers with a key do. Otherwise you loose your competency and route knowledge and need re-training.

Plus there is no need. This isn't normally a problem. As I say, with Sundays outside most weeks there are more drivers wishing to work than there is work available. Infact, Sundays are easier to cover than many week days and people think twice about going sick on a Sunday as they loose money for it.

The problem is with any overtime that if the company upset it's workforce they tend to loose the will to do extra...

But you are looking to fix a non existent problem.

Plus it is very well known that railway companies operate with less drivers than they need. Tryst me, your suggestion to recruit more has been considered but the TOCs find it cheaper to have vacancies unfilled and rely on overtime to cover it all. Far, far cheaper.

 

[notadriver]

Where there's a will there's a way

What about multitasking where they could train up existing staff to drive trains (guards or anyone else suitable) and then utilise them as and when required with an additional payment being made when employed on driving duties.

Multi-tasking like this works well on tram systems but doesn't work on main line railways.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Yes but it's easy to recruit shop staff. Training times are very short and costs very little.

Yes but the TOCs will see the benefits long term though, it just won't be overnight

Besides train drivers jobs are for adults with resposibilities wheras in retail its mostly school kids that dont stay long term if you shop at Sainsburys lol

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't think we can get the message home to "Butts" that more drivers would be required and that TOCs resist this (Unions support) on cost grounds.

 

[notadriver]

FCC recruit for drivers on a regular basis but it does take time for them to become productive.

 

[A-driver]

FCC recruit for drivers on a regular basis but it does take time for them to become productive.

Plus as many leave as come in.